Iran, The real issue, An open discussion

Originally posted by sonnny1

Originally posted by RimDaas

How has the subject changed from NK to Iran?

We are talking about one of the most destructive weapons on the Planet... Are we not?
We are also talking about Countries that have them, and you didn't believe Countries are willing to use them offensively. I gave you an example, you shot down. Why shoot down, what was actually said?

BTW, North Korea ALSO said they weren't developing Nuclear Weapons.......

Originally posted by RimDaas
Anyway please provide me with a source saying that this leader wants to see the 12 imam.
And all Muslims know that only god almighty is the only one who will begin armaggedon.

It didnt take long to google it..............

President Ahmadinejad: Yes, that’s true. I prayed for the arrival of the 12th Imam. The owner of the age, as we call him. Because the owner of the age is the symbol of the – justice and brotherly love prevailing around the world. When the Imam arrives, all of these problems will be resolved. And a prayer for the owner of the age is nothing but a wish for justice and brotherly love to prevail around the world. And it’s an obligation a person takes upon himself to always think about brotherly love. And also to treating others as equals. All people can establish such a connection with the Imam of the age. It’s roughly the same as the relationship which exists between Christians and the Christ. They speak with Jesus Christ and they are sure that Christ hears them. And responds. Therefore, this is not limited to us only. Any person can talk with the Imam.

LINK


You can interpret what you like out of the responses. For me, I see death and destruction, when I see the Messiah coming. The World in a lot of hurt and Pain, before it gets better. We haven't touched that sort of threshold yet.

edit on 19-8-2012 by sonnny1 because: (no reason given)

Does Israel not say it's not developing nukes? How come people around the world aren't pointing fingers at them or screaming how evil they are?

He talks about resolving problems and peace and brotherhood and you see death and destruction. You'd get full marks if you were analysing his interview for GCSEs or A-Levels.

reply to post by sonnny1


Not likely for them to use it. North Korea using a nuke is far less likely than Iran or Israel using one. If you are going to fight a war you have to have an achievable goal. North Korea has a goal of reuniting with the South and controlling the entire peninsula that has always been the goal. You don't really want to use nuclear weapons on territory you hope to control. Regimes like the one in NK desire a nuke not for the tactical advantages gained from it, but for the fear that is generated by that advantage. Highly destructive weapons = scared civilians.

Originally posted by sonnny1

Originally posted by mideast


+ Israel is an illegitimate state.

Israel is an invader which didn't ask the local people if they like to be ruled by them. They just invaded , Bulldozered , killed and claimed independence.They are an example of how hypocrite other counties are about human rights.

Hmmmm..

I just want to know, if you are speaking for the average Iranian?

If so, I can understand "why" there isn't any peace between the two countries, if this is how the average Iranian, or those in control, view it. Personally? I cant see the average Iranian thinking this way. Leaders? Yes.

That is not an accurate question.

And there is no way for you to see if I talk for average Iranian people or not.

BTW , the peace in region is affected by illegitimate occupation. Is it not ?

And about peace in middle east , Shia and sonny have issues , but they don't fight.

Like Protestants and Catholics don't fight to death.

It is plain clear for us who is running the show.

Al-qaeda and other terrorist groups such as MKO , Taliban , .... are exposed to the people.

No nation welcomes terrorism and manipulation.

Originally posted by RimDaas


Does Israel not say it's not developing nukes? How come people around the world aren't pointing fingers at them or screaming how evil they are?

He talks about resolving problems and peace and brotherhood and you see death and destruction. You'd get full marks if you were analysing his interview for GCSEs or A-Levels.

Actually there are PLENTY of people, pointing the finger at America and Israel. Really, all you have to look at is the many threads that ARE designed to do just that.

Deny Ignorance.

He Talks about resolving problems peacefully, and in the next step brands Israel, as Zionist. How can a Nation, move ahead, when the Rhetoric, is ratchet up, at the Levels they are BOTH are playing to?

You talk of pointing fingers, but fail to see the Irony, of your own thought process?

To have a proper view on ALL this, both Nations need to see that they are all HUMAN. The peoples of both Nations, need to change their Governments from within. That's my take on it.

reply to post by nenothtu

I can lobby for that if it's gonna make Iran smile and stop talking tough!

You lobby again ?



Give the lands taken by force to the true owners. Then let them choose what they want. It is democracy right ?

Originally posted by mideast


That is not an accurate question.

Sure it is. Its an OUTRIGHT, in your face question, actually.

Originally posted by mideast
And there is no way for you to see if I talk for average Iranian people or not.

Is your voice a lone one, or are you speaking for Iran? Like I said, I believe MANY Iranians don't view it, as you do.

Originally posted by mideast
BTW , the peace in region is affected by illegitimate occupation. Is it not ?

What Nations in that Area, are at War, at the Moment ?

None. There is Peace, as we speak, right now between both Nations.

Originally posted by mideast
And about peace in middle east , Shia and sonny have issues , but they don't fight.

I wont link you to the violence, between them.

Originally posted by mideast
Like Protestants and Catholics don't fight to death.

Come on now, dont deflect.....

Originally posted by mideast
No nation welcomes terrorism and manipulation.

PEOPLE shouldn't be held hostage, to Nations who want War.

reply to post by jaduguru



You are wrong, JG. You are just showing your ignorance. I have a wife and two children. If the millions of Iranians refuse to do something about Ahmadinejad, then they deserve whatevers coming to them......... and unless you live right now in Iran, then I'm not talking about specifically, so cool your tool. And if you are, then you and your family get in a shelter now, cause the clock is running down.

Originally posted by mideast

No nation welcomes terrorism and manipulation.

No civilian population does, sure, but they really don't have much of a choice in most cases.

"Grow these poppies, or we kill your family."

"Support these policies, or you are undermining your nation."

Which is to say that a lot of these problems do not stem from the majority, nor are their views accurately expressed by those who claim to represent them. As you acknowledge, I believe, when you aver that you yourself do not represent a majority of any sort.

reply to post by sonnny1

What Nations in that Area, are at War, at the Moment ?

you don't know who is supporting war in the region ??
Zionists are using Hillary Clinton to follow their agenda. She travels from Egypt to Israel , from Israel to turkey to see which she can save for Israel.

Morsi has fired the defense minister , discredited the military council , has opened Rafah to support Gaza.
Egypt isn't safe anymore to back Israel ground operations. South of Israel is not safe spot anymore. So they need to go to North , to find a safe ground area. That is why they are backing the rebels in Syria.

Those extremist who are supported by foreign blood money ar brinign war to the nations . in the name of democracy

Those videos in the websites shows that they are dirty bastards who kill in cold blood. There is no sign that they are Muslims.

That is war on the nations. Now, they support Syrian extremists. Tomorrow they support Iranian extremists.

Although they have killed Iranian scientists to bring fear into Iranians heart.

+ Those sanctions are not sign of friendship , are they ?

PEOPLE shouldn't be held hostage, to Nations who want War.

Now , it is a good point. You don't believe me if I say we don't know who ordered to enter the American embassy. It was not a good job to do. there could have been much worse consequences. But there was no way for KHomeini to stop those people. They were too extremist to deal with.

On the other side , Islamic revolution was against Shah and a consequence of project Ajax.

So , see what Khomeini could do.

1- Take side with the occupiers and be discredited in international community.

2- take side with hostages and look like another puppet to the people.

The occupying was a lose-lose game IMO.

Originally posted by Tarzan the apeman.
reply to post by Hefficide

 

Im seeing 2 sides in this fight,two dogs growling at one another. Fighting over a religious bone. There is not one dog here making the threats. Just my 2 cents.

Except one dog has the US behind it and the other one has Russia.

reply to post by mideast


People fight over religious stuff too. It happened during the Crusades when Islam fought Christianity for Jerusalem. Can we say all those people were not Christian and were not Musim because they fought bloody fights?
Some people disown those who kill in the name of religion and some say it is necessary to fight the good fight. Much of it seems to be over territory or property. This is why our Founding Fathers in America originally wrote that property was to be part of our liberty, but the wording was changed. Private property is an important aspect of freedom. Don't let any Marxist tell you that to get rid of property is to be free. There are people who want to control everything. They are always at the top wherever you go.
If you were to look at who rules things, even when they say it is for "democracy" and "social justice", you will find that those very people who say this have a lot of property but they don't want every one else to have it.

Originally posted by Eidolon23
Usually this is where someone would whip out the Crusades, but let's just skip that part and admit that religions have mechanisms for self-perpetuation common to them all.

Originally posted by ThirdEyeofHorus

People fight over religious stuff too. It happened during the Crusades when Islam fought Christianity for Jerusalem. Can we say all those people were not Christian and were not Musim because they fought bloody fights?

/facepalm.

reply to post by mideast

Give the lands taken by force to the true owners. Then let them choose what they want. It is democracy right ?

So this is really about land and not religion then? Were people living peaceably before the Balfour Agreement? If you try to take land away from people and give back to original owners, now we are going back to the earlier part of the century. This really opens a can of worms and some people here in the States want to do that sort of thing as well. I believe this is one reason why some rabbis do not agree with the concept of the State of Israel. But what's done is done and you cannot just start taking land and giving it away more. I believe there is a water rights issue as well, as arid land is premium around there. This is a problem that is not going to go away easily. But should the whole world be embroiled in such a dispute?

I also hear you saying it is not the extremists fault but blood money behind them. Now the extremist are not the fault of Iran but blood money coming from other countries. Nice way to disown people and give Iran an out as well. So who are all these monied interests in back of all the people? The Russians were interested in Afghanistan before we were. What was there? Russia was expanding it's communist base no doubt about it, but there were other factors there including a pipeline.
How about Syria?

Russia insists the weapons it sells to Syria cannot be used against peaceful civilians.

www.theworld.org...

That statement right there tells us several things
1) That Russia does indeed have an interest in Syria
2) That Russia is willing to provide weapons to Syria to protect it's interest
3) That Russia is trying to deny something

Steve Rosenberg: At an arms fair outside Moscow, five Russian tanks weave gracefully back and forth, their gun barrels rising and falling in time to a waltz. This unusual tank ballet was choreographed by the Bolshoi Theater. But these weren’t built for dancing.

Who would have thought the Bolshoi Ballet would ever choreograph a bunch of Soviet tanks at an "arms fair". wait, what? There are arms fairs? And Russia is engaged in them?

Ruslan Pukhov: Russia doesn’t see any problems in selling weapons to Syria if the CIA and French and British secret services, shipping via Turkey it’s military hardware to the rebels including their hard Islamis. In Syria, rebels attacking military vehicle, which burst into flames.

Looks like Russia sells weapons to Syrian govt and allies send weapons to rebel fighters. Sounds like Afghanistan all over again. Russia protecting it's interests and the Allies protecting theirs.

How come Islam blames the US for Israel actions but doesn't blame Russia for Syrian and Iranian actions?

reply to post by ThirdEyeofHorus

Can we say all those people were not Christian and were not Musim because they fought bloody fights?

No. These rebels are cruel. Look how they talk. Like cutting a cake.

It is not allowed to kill people like this. Fight is a different matter.

You can find no religious leader supporting beheading people like this , except Wahhabi .

It is an ordinary thing for us to hear that some group of Sunni people get killed in Iraq , some days later , we hear another part of Shia Muslims get killed in Iraq.

Both leaders call their followers to be calm. And it is clear for them that someone else is running the show.

Originally posted by mideast


you don't know who is supporting war in the region ??

Its all a hidden War, by Proxy, but not your conventional War.

Are you talking about Irans support of Hezbollah and support for Syria in the region ?

You have to paint the Picture, in all its vibrant Colors, Not just the colors YOU want to use.


And there is the problem. There are those that justify this kind of War, all the while not admitting that Iran has its hands, buried deep into it. You failed to mention ONCE, that there are two sides to the coin, but quick to whip out the double sided "Zionist" coin. Why is that?

At least acknowledge there is two different sides to it, without overtly playing the "blame" game, while you do it.

reply to post by mideast


So you are saying they are not State sanctioned directly, that they get money separately by monied interests for their actions...ok I can understand that. Like hired assassins. And the monied powers know that if you throw a lot of money at people they will do crazy stuff

Both leaders call their followers to be calm. And it is clear for them that someone else is running the show.

.

Who is that other someone if it is not religious leaders?

reply to post by DrWh0


Sorry, but did you just write half a page about how the Jews run everything, without a shred of citation?

In addition to being ridiculously offensive to many readers who would otherwise be amenable to examining the flaws in US military and economic policy, you fail to cite for it because there's no credible evidence.

The flaws in American international policy come from many sources, and the flaws in our economic policy are common to all post-industrial powers. If we're going to see and address them effectively, we can't afford to reduce the debate to the mud pit in this manner, and you strike me as well-educated enough to know better.

ETA: Oh, I see you posted a Fox News statement as support for your rant. It does not make the nut, I'm afraid.

Click here for more information.

Looks like Russia is accusing US of arming Syria rebels, while they sell tanks and weapons to the Syrian govt.

Afghanistan all over again, but what's the prize?

www.telegraph.co.uk...