Six Arguments for the Elimination of Capitalism

Originally posted by Fockewulf8

1. Can capitalism exist outside of a monetary system? If so can you please describe that to me.

Yes, but capitalism implies trade and money makes transactions easier. It would be difficult to trade one cow for the collection of the various things you could buy with the money the cow is worth all in one transaction. Money enables distribution of wealth when that is desired.

3. When the human element is removed from a system then any system is a neutral entity... That's like saying that a gun isn't evil or good but how it's used.. Therefore any system is corrupt proof due to it being a neutral system before the human element is added to it. Therefore I hope this point wasn't to support capitalism's superiority over other systems based on its un-corruptability? Yet if it is to display capitalism as a neutral system then I could agree.

If capitalism is no better with the human element added, it also is no worse.

Capitalism has no neccessity of centralization of power. All other systems do require centralization of power, and thereby give corruption alot of leverage.

4. Capitalism is based on production as you say correct? From my viewpoint production is not only constrained by the consumer but by the producer as well.

In my opinion, capitalism is only really better when used according to the principles of Austrian Economics. I say this because AE presuposes a free market. This is very abbriviated. In a free market, the consumer chooses what is produced because credit is restricted to savings and so the producer must move his goods or services quickly.

5. Refer to point 3...

me too

6. Lets say that capitalism does provide the best availability of services and commodities... that was not the point of the statement per my understanding. The point of the statement from how I read it was stating that capitalism (and how it is used) overclouds a large part of being human with a image that to consume will aid us in finding this part of ourselves (i.e. purpose and emotional/spiritual connection to the world around us) through materialism and consumption. Yet no system provides that if you are looking at a system without the human element (i.e. just on paper) because it is NEUTRAL. The key is how it's used and every system in some degree becomes corrupted when you add the human element at this point in our development.

You could accuse language (although language does need to be more precise and accurate) of all the same faults.

Also to me AE is the only economics. Economics is about individuals making choices. In Austrian Economics, AE, individuals make all of the choices. In any other eco/political system, the individual makes superficial and restricted choices predominantly-- look at the elections.

7. "With the private sector in charge, the messages we receive have the exact same intent as the communiques from an Orwellian state". From my understanding this is directed at the intentional, and direct, psychological manipulation that corporations engage in to have the consumer buy and support their product over all others and develop product loyalty. Much like a oppressive state would do to support its rule no?

The author was also saying that the media separated the recipient from normal interaction and in that way could affect the recipients view of reality.

Yes, the way the system is run now is very much like a pre-Orwellian state. The corporations have their monopolies from or because of government power, not inspite of it.

8. "Advertizing, AKA propaganda, is the mode of our poorly educated society and will be used by any central authority, especially a non-capitalist, control-oriented, centrally managed society." So by that statement present corporations are not capitalist because they engage in propaganda towards consumers?

Yes, the corporations engage in propaganda and there is something unnatural about modern corporations. Austrian Economic corporations would produce more consumer goods and fewer capital goods.

Please take your suggestions to a country like China or Russia where they are used to something other than Capitalism. We don't want it here in the United States commie boy.

Reply to post by Butch4231

That's an ignorant point of view. We don't have capitalism in this country, we have corporatism, closely related to fascism. True capitalism, with a governing body enforcing contracts and not interfering in the markets, is humane, we just haven't seen it this country in a long time.


Posted Via ATS Mobile: m.abovetopsecret.com

In *my* United States of America, we are all the descendants -- both literally, and figuratively -- to the rich cultural legacy which gave birth to the economic philosophy we call "western capitalism" in the first place.

We are each endowed with both the right AND the obligation to improve upon our ancestors philosophies when they no longer serve our mutual and united interests.

"America: Love it or leave it" is the refuge of the socially and culturally retarded and / or stillborn; it deserves no more respect or consideration than any other emotional plea to our ignorance or superstitions.

What is disgusting to me, personally, is that "Capitalism" is tied in with "being American", and is considered a "core American value".

We were never founded on Capitalism, but that's what we are today. The point is to be against hyper-Capitalism, which lends itself to Fascism more than it does to Prosperity. Believe it or not, there is a middle-ground between "Have Nothing" and "Rape the Earth". Hyper-Capitalism actually erodes freedom, and encourages fascist monopolies.

If the only argument someone can muster against these points is, "Go back to the Communist Russia that doesn't exist anymore." Then maybe it's best that person steps outside to take a look around. See the sky, see the stars, smell the air. Hello, welcome to Planet Earth, would you like to know more?

reply to post by KillerQueen

1. Amorality – increase of individual and corporate wealth is the only core principle of capitalism. Recognition of any social concern or relationship to the natural world that transcends the goal of increasing capital accumulation is extrinsic to the system.

2. Dependence on growth – capitalism relies on limitless growth, but the natural resources essential to wealth production are finite. Super-exploitation is exhausting those resources and destroying the ecosystems of which they are a part, jeopardizing human survival as well as that of other species.

I think the problem here is that all living things are intrinsically capitalist. That is true if we were to look at things realistically. Capitalism is one of the intrinsic laws of nature.

Let us look at the term capitalize and how it applies to living things both sentient and non-sentient:

Capitalize

verb (used without object)
7.
to take advantage of; turn something to one's advantage (often followed by on ): to capitalize on one's opportunities.

How, you may ask, would this apply to non-sentient objects?

If i apply paint to a metal door to prevent rust, has the door not capitalized from the paint? The capitalism does not end there, although it may.

Is the door worth more than the unpainted door?
Answer: Yes.

Example 2: A tree getting sunlight and water.

Has the tree not capitalized? For if the tree benefited from the sun and water, which it does, would you take it away so as to avoid capitalism?

Let us examine the first two on the list:

1. Amorality

I dont think we can use these systems to determine morality.

If we were in a prison cell, obviously devoid of any political philosophy or need for one, would morality still apply?

Answer: Yes, morality still applies.

Can immorality exist?

Answer: Yes, immorality can exist.

2. Dependence on growth

There is no rule that capitalism is dependent on growth. Many businesses do not grow at all, they stay the same.

If i had a food stand, there are no rules that my profit needs to grow. It can stay the same and perhaps i would want that. There is also recycling or even use of things that grow and are used to benefit.

I have two cows, i feed them (from crops that grew by nature) and the cows reproduce thus increasing milk production. Here the human and the cows capitalized.

The problem with this is. In order to get rid of capitalism it requires to for people to work together, create an almost perfect utopia and stopping the hate and ignorance. Do you think humans are even close to being capable of this? Look at the damn olympics, it's supposed to be a time to come together, and celebrate the human spirit. Look at twitter, look at facebook, look at all the remarks people are posting about how one country is better than another, i've seen posts on twitter already that was talking about the female US soccer team victory over japan, many of which talk about payback for pearl harbor, and talkin about giving them another hiroshima and nagasaki. What is wrong with people? people are filled with hate, ending capitalism wouldn't even be possible, ever. We as a race have had so many millenia on this earth and all we do is keep abusing eachother and filling the world with more hate.

Im amazed at how many people support such a soul destroying economic system such as capitalism! These "Producers" are pillaging the world, incorporating slave/child labour into their production, paying those workers a pittance, have them living in squalor with no access to education to gain a better life, then they ship their goods to us 1st world poor folk who are stupid enough to spend the last penny in our pockets on something overpriced, cheaply made and non essential to living but we like the "Good feeling" that commences when we've just bought a product.

Furthermore, Capitalism exports jobs from countries (Such as the USA, UK) which essentially devalues our role in the world economy because we have nothing to offer other than natural resources. Our countries collectively have become tertiary industry, where the main lot of jobs are Retail, Office, Call centre and sales based. And then there is the overwhelming evidence that over the past 20-30 years, wages have stagnated. The standard of living had dropped, your pound/dollar doesn't go as far as it used to, the basics of living have sky rocketed making it impossible to supports oneself.
When you eventually ask yourself what happened? Where did all the money go? Some anciently rich wealthy inbred, probably a banker for the fun of it, is sitting on billions of dollars just waiting to exploit the next economic opportunity.

And yet ATS'ers still defend it like its the most brilliant thing to ever be invented by man.

Its a selfish system that's being used to rape the world. It makes me sick that people come on here to defend it, what happened to denying ignorance??

Originally posted by Rockpuck
reply to post by KillerQueen

 

The only thing I agree with is the last bit. For every new gadget we invent, for every luxury we provide, you'd think we'd be very happy? But we are not.. we are miserable. Comfortable, yes, but not happy. Capitalism has made us to be the most comfortable and protected miserable people in history. It's weird, and no one can really place why exactly we are so sad, so angry, so apathetic.

Materialism.
It seems to go hand-in-hand with capitalism.

I am a proponent of the free market, but i am not lured by all the shiny baubles i can buy & use.

The more gadgets we acquire, the more detached from society we become.
The more tech we use the less need we have for spirituality.

I believe we have lost our grounding. We are losing what it is to be human.
Live a simpler life with people, not things.

In defence of free market capitalism, a challenger appears:

reply to post by KillerQueen


These are unregulated capitalism.

Unregulated communism and socialism is capable of the same, if not worse.

Once you deal with bankers and millionaires (the people capable of doing all these), you cannot call it capitalism anymore, nor communism, nor socialism. It's really just oligarchy. They share their wealth to create more, and charge its existence in rent to make more over that.

1.violence and hatred

2. more violence and hatred and communism

3.More hatred and violence and devalue human life and bankrupt nations more violence

4.violence once again if you elminate capitliam and total collpase of any wealth and you would have to ration food and health care and it would run out.
5.violence and war from communist or socialist or autocrat governments taking over

6.More violence and war is ll that would result and more poverty

Originally posted by Gorman91
reply to post by KillerQueen

 

These are unregulated capitalism.

Unregulated communism and socialism is capable of the same, if not worse.

Once you deal with bankers and millionaires (the people capable of doing all these), you cannot call it capitalism anymore, nor communism, nor socialism. It's really just oligarchy. They share their wealth to create more, and charge its existence in rent to make more over that.

This post is the only post anyone needs to read in this thread. I completely agree with this and I think minds are too often clouded in such a biased way towards certain political and economical models or belief systems that it can often become somewhat opinionated. A very good objective view and if the world needs more of something, it certainly is objectivity.

Since it mentions redistributing wealth, I will say what I've said on ATS 100 times now...The majority don't even understand what Communism or Socialism are, because they call states like the USSR and China Communist when they are nothing of the sort. There is this taboo against Communism or Socialism that should not be present, and it arose because people have not read the founders of these ideologies.

Capitalism is just a glorified version of feudalism. We are all serfs working for our lords and as hard as it is for your average republican, yes, you too are a serf just like the rest of us whether you want to believe in it or not.

What I do find interesting is that there are so many Americans are so in love with the "idea" of capitalism that they completely fail to see what our version of "capitalism" is today. Our version of capitalism is wealth concentrated at the very top with everyone else left to fend for themselves. Hey, doesn't that sound like how communism worked in Russia and China?!?!

The same applies to having a "free" society. These two ideas do not exist in this country anymore and have been dead or on the path to dying for over 200 years now.

What we have right now is a "pay to play" system. You can get whatever you want if you have the right connections and the money to pay off people to get there. This is not capitalism. That idea is dead in the US.

reply to post by KillerQueen


to quote Sgt. Espera, from the book/tv series "Generation Kill"...about the United States and Capitalism


"See, the white man has created a system with so much excess that even poor mother#ers are fat"


Capitalism rules. The poor people in our society have more chances to make something of themselves more than any other nation in the history of the world.

End of Story.

Click here for more information.

We don't need to get rid of capitalism, we just need to regulate the criminality out of it. Capitalism is like fire, if you can use it right it will keep you warm, if you lose control of it, it can burn you to ashes. Communism didn't work because it ignores on basic fact. Humans have a selfish and greedy aspect that is part of their nature. That's why truly altruistic systems will probably fail and ones that encourage a bit of greed and selfishness will last a bit longer. I would prefer a regulated capitalist system as it can give you a decent standard of living.

While I agree that Capitalism has many flaws we cannot discount the pros. It has provided many humans with what is essential to lead a good and healthy life.

That being said we have to bring to our attention the extremism that is present in our economic model. Where some don't have a limit and always want more at any cost. Just like some strap bombs to themselves for their views, this is also a form of extremism. Getting rich or die trying attitude is real nice on paper, but it can get real ugly real fast. As a matter of fact it already has.

I know that this is not the only outcome thus far that came out of this system. However the problem is there.

I can only underline the problem. the solution is going to have to be something we all or the majority agree on which is the HARDEST thing to accomplish. I for one think money without interest would be a good start.

reply to post by JiggyPotamus


I agree with what you say. People parrot what is said on TV or any other media without investigating and forming their own opinion (takes time I know).