And here is the "Holy Bible" of Jews and Christians:
Deuteronomy 13
King James Version
1 If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and giveth thee a sign or a wonder,
2 And the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spake unto thee, saying, Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve
them;
3 Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the Lord your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the
Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul.
4 Ye shall walk after the Lord your God, and fear him, and keep his commandments, and obey his voice, and ye shall serve him, and cleave unto him.
5 And that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams, shall be put to death; because he hath spoken to turn you away from the Lord your God, which brought
you out of the land of Egypt, and redeemed you out of the house of bondage, to thrust thee out of the way which the Lord thy God commanded thee to
walk in. So shalt thou put the evil away from the midst of thee.
6 If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul,
entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers;
7 Namely, of the gods of the people which are round about you, nigh unto thee, or far off from thee, from the one end of the earth even unto the other
end of the earth;
8 Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him:
9 But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people.
10 And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die; because he hath sought to thrust thee away from the Lord thy God, which brought thee out of
the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage.
11 And all Israel shall hear, and fear, and shall do no more any such wickedness as this is among you.
www.biblegateway.com...
World leaders promoting tolerance; but what do you really know about Islam?, page 1
Topic started on 25-7-2012 @ 07:55 AM by FlyInTheOintment
The following thread has garnered a lot of attention here on ATS, and highlights a terrible event which cannot be justified:
World silent as Muslim massacre goes on in Myanmar
Moderators, please allow this thread to stand by the merit of the references drawn at the end, which are legitimate Islamic doctrine, taken straight from the Koran. I do not encourage violence against anyone, and would never encourage people to take action into their own hands. I am simply trying to make clear the point that Islam, in its original and unadulterated nature, was an instruction in the direction and purposes of warmongering efforts as much as it was a religion. I also make clear that Moderate Muslims are to be applauded for their valiant efforts at defying the reams of hateful instruction found within the pages of the Koran.
I deplore any orchestration of bloodshed on any scale, and am not siding with the perpetrators in the Myanmar incident linked in the thread above. The tone of the above-linked thread is what caused me to want to write this thread now, though it has been on my mind for some time. I am not suggesting any cause-and-effect relationship of any sort, and would have ended up writing this thread anyway, even without the prompting of the Myanmar incident.
So, without further ado...
The Western world has bought into a shedload of propaganda concerning Islam, and it is all too apparent that we are ready to believe the best about the 'religion of peace', without considering the actual facts.
Something has become brutally clear in recent years. Our leaders are jumping up and down to be counted as 'tolerant' and as ambassadors for religious freedom, and both they, and simpering members of multi-faith groups are quick to label Islam as a 'religion of peace'.
However, Islam in itself, in its literal and true form, is not a religion of peace. The scriptures of the Koran openly promote violence against all who are not Muslim, with explicit instructions regarding the need for ongoing conquest and subjection of all who are not in submission to Islam (in fact, 'Islam' literally means 'submission').
Islam is questionably not even a religion, as the word is properly understood. It is unique, in that it claims to be a totalitarian spiritual and materialistic revelation to Mankind. It is a total life-system, with its own political aims and its own judicial practices (Sharia law - for example, a woman who testifies that she has been raped can legitimately be stoned to death for adultery)... In the religious sense, God is claimed to be unknowable, and so prayer is not an intimate time of personal reflection, but is rather the repetition by rote en-masse of loosely fixed mantras.
Any deviation from the largely materialistic precepts laid out in the pages of the Koran is considered blasphemous. That is why hardline Muslims will quite often kill their more moderate counterparts. Moderate Muslims only succeed in being 'moderate' (they are to be applauded for this), because they ignore the more hateful commands in the Koran.
Do not be in any doubt that in the unabridged form of Islam, you are considered an enemy worthy of death if you:
a) Are a Muslim who does not obey every single Islamic precept..
b) Are a Christian..
c) Are Jewish..
d) Are in favour of non-Islamic means of governance, such as democracy..
e) Are a Buddhist..
f) Are a Sufi mystic..
g) Are a Hindu
(add any other religion that comes to mind)..
h) Are an atheist..
i) Are homosexual..
ETC.
Basically, in the true application of the Koran's dictates, you are worthy of death unless you entirely submit to Islam. Entirely.
Here is a list of hardline Islamic violence as perpetrated in the ongoing global Jihad in recent days. The past thirty days, in fact.
In summary - it is right to be appalled at the way in which Muslims in Myanmar are being massacred.
However, it is wise to understand the wider social context, and to consider the actual precepts of Islam - that as a result of the actual text, there are serious social issues arising from a fundamental application of Islamic doctrine. These issues will never go away by mere 'tolerance', or committee meetings to determine how best to promote 'inclusivity'.
The Koran is clear - nothing but subjection for and submission to the rule of Islam will satisfy the conditions of Islamic foreign policy.
Jihad has been proclaimed since the day Mohammed received the Koranic scripture. And it will not stop, until the inverted morality of the 'religion of peace' is recognised en-masse by those in its snare, and those who are targeted in its line-of-sight.
Here are some quotes from the Koran which emphasise my point clearly:
Moderators, please allow this thread to stand by the merit of the references drawn at the end, which are legitimate Islamic doctrine, taken straight from the Koran. I do not encourage violence against anyone, and would never encourage people to take action into their own hands. I am simply trying to make clear the point that Islam, in its original and unadulterated nature, was an instruction in the direction and purposes of warmongering efforts as much as it was a religion. I also make clear that Moderate Muslims are to be applauded for their valiant efforts at defying the reams of hateful instruction found within the pages of the Koran.
I deplore any orchestration of bloodshed on any scale, and am not siding with the perpetrators in the Myanmar incident linked in the thread above. The tone of the above-linked thread is what caused me to want to write this thread now, though it has been on my mind for some time. I am not suggesting any cause-and-effect relationship of any sort, and would have ended up writing this thread anyway, even without the prompting of the Myanmar incident.
So, without further ado...
The Western world has bought into a shedload of propaganda concerning Islam, and it is all too apparent that we are ready to believe the best about the 'religion of peace', without considering the actual facts.
Something has become brutally clear in recent years. Our leaders are jumping up and down to be counted as 'tolerant' and as ambassadors for religious freedom, and both they, and simpering members of multi-faith groups are quick to label Islam as a 'religion of peace'.
However, Islam in itself, in its literal and true form, is not a religion of peace. The scriptures of the Koran openly promote violence against all who are not Muslim, with explicit instructions regarding the need for ongoing conquest and subjection of all who are not in submission to Islam (in fact, 'Islam' literally means 'submission').
Islam is questionably not even a religion, as the word is properly understood. It is unique, in that it claims to be a totalitarian spiritual and materialistic revelation to Mankind. It is a total life-system, with its own political aims and its own judicial practices (Sharia law - for example, a woman who testifies that she has been raped can legitimately be stoned to death for adultery)... In the religious sense, God is claimed to be unknowable, and so prayer is not an intimate time of personal reflection, but is rather the repetition by rote en-masse of loosely fixed mantras.
Any deviation from the largely materialistic precepts laid out in the pages of the Koran is considered blasphemous. That is why hardline Muslims will quite often kill their more moderate counterparts. Moderate Muslims only succeed in being 'moderate' (they are to be applauded for this), because they ignore the more hateful commands in the Koran.
Do not be in any doubt that in the unabridged form of Islam, you are considered an enemy worthy of death if you:
a) Are a Muslim who does not obey every single Islamic precept..
b) Are a Christian..
c) Are Jewish..
d) Are in favour of non-Islamic means of governance, such as democracy..
e) Are a Buddhist..
f) Are a Sufi mystic..
g) Are a Hindu
(add any other religion that comes to mind)..
h) Are an atheist..
i) Are homosexual..
ETC.
Basically, in the true application of the Koran's dictates, you are worthy of death unless you entirely submit to Islam. Entirely.
Here is a list of hardline Islamic violence as perpetrated in the ongoing global Jihad in recent days. The past thirty days, in fact.
In summary - it is right to be appalled at the way in which Muslims in Myanmar are being massacred.
However, it is wise to understand the wider social context, and to consider the actual precepts of Islam - that as a result of the actual text, there are serious social issues arising from a fundamental application of Islamic doctrine. These issues will never go away by mere 'tolerance', or committee meetings to determine how best to promote 'inclusivity'.
The Koran is clear - nothing but subjection for and submission to the rule of Islam will satisfy the conditions of Islamic foreign policy.
Jihad has been proclaimed since the day Mohammed received the Koranic scripture. And it will not stop, until the inverted morality of the 'religion of peace' is recognised en-masse by those in its snare, and those who are targeted in its line-of-sight.
Here are some quotes from the Koran which emphasise my point clearly:
"...make war on the leaders of unbelief...Make war on them: God will chastise them at your hands and humble them. He will grant you victory over them..." (Surah 9:12-)
"Make war on them until idolatry shall cease and God's religion shall reign supreme." (Surah 8:36-)
"Fight against such as those to whom the Scriptures were given [Jews and Christians]...until they pay tribute out of hand and are utterly subdued." (Surah 9:27-)
"Prophet make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites and deal rigorously with them. Hell shall be their home." (Surah 9:73)
"Believers, make war on the infidels who dwell around you. Deal firmly with them." (Surah 9:121-)
"Muhammad is God's apostle. Those who follow him are ruthless to the unbelievers but merciful to one another." (Surah 48:29)
reply posted on 25-7-2012 @ 08:09 AM by DeadSnow
reply to post by FlyInTheOintment
en.wikipedia.org...
How about you take a look at this link first before branding certain groups as terrorists. Do you people get paid to post misleading threads?.
FYI take your lists add up all the deaths and compare them to the deaths caused during the "War on terror".
en.wikipedia.org...
How about you take a look at this link first before branding certain groups as terrorists. Do you people get paid to post misleading threads?.
FYI take your lists add up all the deaths and compare them to the deaths caused during the "War on terror".
edit on 25-7-2012 by DeadSnow
because: (no reason given)
reply posted on 25-7-2012 @ 08:13 AM by FlyInTheOintment
reply to post by GLontra
The Old Testament is interpreted in light of the New. Christians do not follow the Mosaic Law - and Jews recognise that the revelation of the Old Testament was given for a particular time in history, within which it was crucial to become an independent nation state and in so doing to provide a demonstration of the power of God before the nations.
Later on, the Jews were established in the land, and no longer went out to war in conquest of neighboring territory. Their borders were established by YHWH, and they did not seek to 'convert or kill' as the Koran instructs its followers to.
Jesus Christ was the fulfilment of the Mosaic Law - He was the one who obeyed God without failing, and part of His birthright was to overturn the need for subjection to the Law, by making provision for submission to grace and forgiveness. As the scripture states, 'Mercy has triumphed over judgment'..
Don't just throw a bit of Old Testament scripture in at this debate without understanding the totality of the message to Jews and Christians alike. The Jews were a nation set apart, supposed to lead by example in a Holy lifestyle, but were unable to maintain obedience on many occasions. When Christ came, He demonstrated their absolute failure to understand the real reason that the Law was given, their failure to recognise His ministry, and the fact that their behaviour was not in line with what God had revealed as appropriate, time and again through the prophets.
The god of the Koran basically tries to overrule the message and ministry of Christ, and there are multiple elements that suggest that there is a particular spiritual force at work behind the timing and placement of the revelation to Mohammed.
Trouble is, you can't get a handle on these things until you develop a taste for fully understanding the total message of scripture. Which I assume you haven't.
And anyway - why are you going so far off-topic anyway? The point being made was about Islam - nowhere in this thread did I try to convert anyone to Christianity... You assume that because I am a Christian I am simply having a bash at someone else's interpretation of God, but I assure you that is not the case. These are real social issues, which need proper evaluation in light of the CURRENT THEOLOGY of the Islamists.
The Old Testament is interpreted in light of the New. Christians do not follow the Mosaic Law - and Jews recognise that the revelation of the Old Testament was given for a particular time in history, within which it was crucial to become an independent nation state and in so doing to provide a demonstration of the power of God before the nations.
Later on, the Jews were established in the land, and no longer went out to war in conquest of neighboring territory. Their borders were established by YHWH, and they did not seek to 'convert or kill' as the Koran instructs its followers to.
Jesus Christ was the fulfilment of the Mosaic Law - He was the one who obeyed God without failing, and part of His birthright was to overturn the need for subjection to the Law, by making provision for submission to grace and forgiveness. As the scripture states, 'Mercy has triumphed over judgment'..
Don't just throw a bit of Old Testament scripture in at this debate without understanding the totality of the message to Jews and Christians alike. The Jews were a nation set apart, supposed to lead by example in a Holy lifestyle, but were unable to maintain obedience on many occasions. When Christ came, He demonstrated their absolute failure to understand the real reason that the Law was given, their failure to recognise His ministry, and the fact that their behaviour was not in line with what God had revealed as appropriate, time and again through the prophets.
What does the Lord require of you, but to do justice, to love kindness, and to walk humbly before your God?
The god of the Koran basically tries to overrule the message and ministry of Christ, and there are multiple elements that suggest that there is a particular spiritual force at work behind the timing and placement of the revelation to Mohammed.
Trouble is, you can't get a handle on these things until you develop a taste for fully understanding the total message of scripture. Which I assume you haven't.
And anyway - why are you going so far off-topic anyway? The point being made was about Islam - nowhere in this thread did I try to convert anyone to Christianity... You assume that because I am a Christian I am simply having a bash at someone else's interpretation of God, but I assure you that is not the case. These are real social issues, which need proper evaluation in light of the CURRENT THEOLOGY of the Islamists.
reply posted on 25-7-2012 @ 08:15 AM by FlyInTheOintment
reply to post by DeadSnow
Where did I defend the actions of the people responsible for the war on terror?
Point me to it, and I will gladly entertain the idea that you might be right in assuming I unwaveringly support the war on terror.
Some people need to get a handle on reality.
Where did I defend the actions of the people responsible for the war on terror?
Point me to it, and I will gladly entertain the idea that you might be right in assuming I unwaveringly support the war on terror.
Some people need to get a handle on reality.
reply posted on 25-7-2012 @ 08:23 AM by DeadSnow
reply to post by FlyInTheOintment
All religions are responsible for deaths, all human beings regardless. Your thread is biased.
The Western world has bought into a shedload of propaganda concerning Islam, and it is all too apparent that we are ready to believe the best about the 'religion of peace', without considering the actual facts. Something has become brutally clear in recent years. Our leaders are jumping up and down to be counted as 'tolerant' and as ambassadors for religious freedom, and both they, and simpering members of multi-faith groups are quick to label Islam as a 'religion of peace'. However, Islam in itself, in its literal and true form, is not a religion of peace. The scriptures of the Koran openly promote violence against all who are not Muslim, with explicit instructions regarding the need for ongoing conquest and subjection of all who are not in submission to Islam (in fact, 'Islam' literally means 'submission').
All religions are responsible for deaths, all human beings regardless. Your thread is biased.
reply posted on 25-7-2012 @ 08:29 AM by bigfatfurrytexan
reply to post by FlyInTheOintment
Lets see....i am aware of 3 'types' of Muslim:
1. The ones i have met, who are generally just like anyone else. Which, to be honest, is not surprising since we are all humans. Other than having different traditions that you must be as tolerant as you want in return, there is nothing much to say about the Muslim people I have met, unless we are to disuss them individually.
2. The ones that media portrays. They show that there are a few "nice" muslims that wear suits and such. But the rest are gun toting, raving lunatics out to run amok.
3. The ones you are portraying, which is that all of them are of the fundamentalist nature that you seem to think they all are
Of those three, i have only met 1 kind personally. Thus, my own personal experience tells me that you gathered up some "data" from some Muslim hate site. That is, if I use my own personal experience rather than your slanted "research"
Lets see....i am aware of 3 'types' of Muslim:
1. The ones i have met, who are generally just like anyone else. Which, to be honest, is not surprising since we are all humans. Other than having different traditions that you must be as tolerant as you want in return, there is nothing much to say about the Muslim people I have met, unless we are to disuss them individually.
2. The ones that media portrays. They show that there are a few "nice" muslims that wear suits and such. But the rest are gun toting, raving lunatics out to run amok.
3. The ones you are portraying, which is that all of them are of the fundamentalist nature that you seem to think they all are
Of those three, i have only met 1 kind personally. Thus, my own personal experience tells me that you gathered up some "data" from some Muslim hate site. That is, if I use my own personal experience rather than your slanted "research"
reply posted on 25-7-2012 @ 08:48 AM by DJMSN
reply to post by FlyInTheOintment
Not exactly true as Christians are very fond of quoting and following Old Testament when it can be applied to thier agenda. As someone raised in a Christian home I have always taken it with a grain of slat. Bothe religions and yes Islam is a religion just as Buddism and many other religions that have devoted followers...thats all it takes is one person to have faith in that particular venue and its legit as far as I am concerned.
I could provide a longer list of terror commited in the name of Christianity....the Crusades come to mind...but in this modern world there are several examples of murder by Christians in the name of God...abortion doctors...and several have called for the death of gay people. There are extremist in every group....so dont throw stones and you know the rest
Not exactly true as Christians are very fond of quoting and following Old Testament when it can be applied to thier agenda. As someone raised in a Christian home I have always taken it with a grain of slat. Bothe religions and yes Islam is a religion just as Buddism and many other religions that have devoted followers...thats all it takes is one person to have faith in that particular venue and its legit as far as I am concerned.
I could provide a longer list of terror commited in the name of Christianity....the Crusades come to mind...but in this modern world there are several examples of murder by Christians in the name of God...abortion doctors...and several have called for the death of gay people. There are extremist in every group....so dont throw stones and you know the rest
reply posted on 25-7-2012 @ 08:50 AM by g146541
reply to post by Hecate666
I would disagree about the growing up part on the christians.
I imagine if you put up numbers of people killed in say the last decade of christian based countries vs muslim countries, one would pull way ahead.
But all religions are bad imo.
Just a way of dividing, controlling, and conquering.
I would disagree about the growing up part on the christians.
I imagine if you put up numbers of people killed in say the last decade of christian based countries vs muslim countries, one would pull way ahead.
But all religions are bad imo.
Just a way of dividing, controlling, and conquering.
reply posted on 25-7-2012 @ 08:54 AM by g146541
reply to post by tazdeill2
As for these "reworded" books, I think it is a crime.
Allow,....err MAKE people see the root of the religions for what they are.
Many people would recoil at the thought of half the crap these"holy" books say to do.
If written gy a god or divine inspiration, god's word should stand the test of time.
As for these "reworded" books, I think it is a crime.
Allow,....err MAKE people see the root of the religions for what they are.
Many people would recoil at the thought of half the crap these"holy" books say to do.
If written gy a god or divine inspiration, god's word should stand the test of time.
reply posted on 25-7-2012 @ 09:18 AM by tazdeill2
reply to post by g146541
It's not my place to make people see anything, if anyone gains comfort from any book then I'm happy for them. I'm not forced to read the bible or the koran. I prefer J.K. Rowling and C.S. Lewis.
I think the 10 commandments are a pretty good set of instructions for us to live by, but I prefer the Wiccan one - less to remember.
I think it's dangerous to set religions against each other, it's like saying what's the best colour? There isn't one, it's horses for courses.
It's not my place to make people see anything, if anyone gains comfort from any book then I'm happy for them. I'm not forced to read the bible or the koran. I prefer J.K. Rowling and C.S. Lewis.
I think the 10 commandments are a pretty good set of instructions for us to live by, but I prefer the Wiccan one - less to remember.
I think it's dangerous to set religions against each other, it's like saying what's the best colour? There isn't one, it's horses for courses.
reply posted on 25-7-2012 @ 09:35 AM by seethetruth
reply to post by FlyInTheOintment
what a load of crap now follow all what you have just put with references as to were i can find this in the qur'an
what a load of crap now follow all what you have just put with references as to were i can find this in the qur'an
reply posted on 25-7-2012 @ 09:40 AM by FlyInTheOintment
reply to post by Hecate666
Thank you. I don't agree with everything you wrote, but I can see that you have applied common sense and are seeking to 'recognise the tree by its fruit', to coin a biblical expression.
I was fully prepared for the level of vitriol and misunderstanding that this thread would generate, and I was pleasantly surprised to see such a balanced comment on the first page. Kudos.
Thank you. I don't agree with everything you wrote, but I can see that you have applied common sense and are seeking to 'recognise the tree by its fruit', to coin a biblical expression.
I was fully prepared for the level of vitriol and misunderstanding that this thread would generate, and I was pleasantly surprised to see such a balanced comment on the first page. Kudos.
reply posted on 25-7-2012 @ 09:40 AM by Fromabove
Originally posted by GLontra
And here is the "Holy Bible" of Jews and Christians:
Deuteronomy 13
King James Version
1 If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and giveth thee a sign or a wonder,
2 And the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spake unto thee, saying, Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them;
3 Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the Lord your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul.
4 Ye shall walk after the Lord your God, and fear him, and keep his commandments, and obey his voice, and ye shall serve him, and cleave unto him.
5 And that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams, shall be put to death; because he hath spoken to turn you away from the Lord your God, which brought you out of the land of Egypt, and redeemed you out of the house of bondage, to thrust thee out of the way which the Lord thy God commanded thee to walk in. So shalt thou put the evil away from the midst of thee.
6 If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers;
7 Namely, of the gods of the people which are round about you, nigh unto thee, or far off from thee, from the one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth;
8 Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him:
9 But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people.
10 And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die; because he hath sought to thrust thee away from the Lord thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage.
11 And all Israel shall hear, and fear, and shall do no more any such wickedness as this is among you.
www.biblegateway.com...
Taking old testament scripture out of context doesn't do it. The reference here is as it concerned the Jewish nation of Israel. Called to be God's holy people. Islam doesn't do that, It say to simply kill them all who don't submit.
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