To My American Friends Re: Healthcare and Elections

Originally posted by matth
Dear American Brothers and Sisters,

Hi my name is Matt and I'm from Canada. Just wanted to drop you guys a line to talk about some of your perceived fears of "free" healthcare. In a nutshell all I really have to say is "stop denying ignorance and think for a minute!"

I just read a thread likening "Obamacare" (lol@ridiculous Republican catchphrase you guys are buying into) to slavery. Really? Really? You have got to be kidding me!

You folks would rather stick up for these health insurance providers and big pharma companies, the same companies that result in the #1 reason for bankruptcy in the United States (medical) as well as the same companies that keep you sick on purpose for return business and make your doctors into nothing more than sales reps for drugs...YOU WOULD RATHER STICK UP FOR THEM...in the name of capitalism...over people who actually need health care and can't afford it? Really?

Newsflash! People don't get sick by choice. Here's another cup of truth for you: people usually can't decide when they get sick. Here's one more slice of common sense: your body is not a house or a car! You pay good money for those material items and you don't have to own either...so if you do, I definitely understand the purpose of insurance. But insurance for your body? You people actually think that it is normal, right, ethical or sane to provide medical care based off level of insurance and income?

You want to talk about "death panels"? I know you Rebublican, Rush Limbaugh/Alex Jones fanboys reading this want to! Well in my humble opinion your current, privatized for-profit health care scheme is the ultimate example of a "death panel". They're called "insurance companies". Fun fact: in the 26 years I have been on this earth I have yet to appear before the National Death Panel of Canada to see if I can have adaquete health care or not. True story. I have however got good quality health care from any doctor I have seen. Not as good as privatized American style health care mind you, but I've also never had to declare bankruptcy and I don't have to care about the hospital kicking my ass onto the street when my insurance company says so. So I guess it's a matter of pros and cons.

America, it never ceases to amaze me at how ridiculous you sound sometimes. It also never ceases to amaze me at how effieciently and effectly the 1% are able to manipulate and sell you on things that are in no way beneficial to you that they can get more profits. It really is amazing in a sickening type of way. The blind patriotism is cute sometimes, but the joke isn't really funny anymore because you have an election coming up with only two options and neither of which seem to have what it takes to lead your country out of impending crisis. Instead of whining about the prospect of healthcare coverage for everyone (I know...scary thought) this election season, maybe you can start asking your candidates how you plan on fixing the ponze scheme known as the banking system...or how they will rebuild America's pathetic non-military infrastructure...or how exactly they plan on breaking your addiction to oil? It might prove more useful in selecting a good leader.

Take the health care...we like it here in Canada and best of all were still just as democratic and free as you guys are...or so we think. Anyway take care!

Sincerely,
Matt

Actually I didn't just link Obamacare to slavery...

I linked the very notion that healthcare is a right to slavery...

No 'Right' can impede on another's rights...

You cannot have a right that requires someone else to do a positive action.

The idea that a RIGHT can require someone else's positive action is ridiculous.

You deny another's rights by enforcing yours.

Stick to Canada's socialism, I'll stick to America's Liberty and I will require all Americans to respect my Liberty as guaranteed to me in MY form of government.

If you're so happy to make sure they've got free healthcare, invite them up to Canada, don't invite them to step on my rights down here.

You have three fundamental rights, which can then be broken down into others...

You have the right to LIFE, the right to LIBERTY and the right to PURSUE HAPPINESS...

You have the right to LIFE, meaning that the government cannot arbitrarily decide to deny you your life.

You have the right to LIBERTY, which is freedom (read the bill of rights to find out what our Liberties are defined as)

And you have the right to PURSUE happiness... This means you can pursue it, not that you can have it. You don't have a right to be happy. Part of the pursuit of that happiness is the ability to pay another for the services of making you better when you are sick or injured.

That is not a part of the right to life, because you will die sooner or later regardless, your right to life is only the right to protect you from the government taking it from you. This was in response to King George killing anyone he wanted for whatever reason he wanted.

You have the right to PURSUE healthcare if that will make you happy. You CANNOT have the right for someone else to provide you with it.

Jaden

Uhhh...

Insurance companies just got 30 million mandatory customers?

I don't really know what else to say; it's a lose-lose situation(for the people) yet some idiots try to play it off as a win-win; well if you're an insurance corporation it is win-win. Are these people who purport this drivel aware of the obtuse fallacies spewing out their mouth?

Originally posted by Masterjaden
You have the right to PURSUE healthcare if that will make you happy. You CANNOT have the right for someone else to provide you with it.

You CAN here...which is the point.

Originally posted by JohnnyCanuck

Originally posted by Masterjaden
You have the right to PURSUE healthcare if that will make you happy. You CANNOT have the right for someone else to provide you with it.

You CAN here...which is the point.

edit on 6-7-2012 by JohnnyCanuck because: ...just because...ok?

No you can't...there or anywhere...

You may HAVE the access, but you do NOT have the 'right' to access it. There is only one thing any of us HAVE to do and that is live until we die.

We don't have to pay taxes, we don't have to breath, we don't have to eat or drink...We only have to die.

We have the right to avoid death as long as we can. We have the right to protect ourselves from anyone taking our lives or our property. We have the right to pursue happiness. You cannot have the right to other people's stuff, you cannot have the right to other people's work, and you cannot have the right to other people's lives.

You may actually take another's work, stuff, and lives, but you do NOT have the right to them...

Jaden

Originally posted by Ahabstar
reply to post by matth

 

100% agree. The US could provide medical care to the entire population with raising taxes 1 cent if it chose to do so by budgeting it out of other expenses.

Free housing, Free education to the doctorate level, Free cars, Free iPods. Anything really, come to think of it, could be provided to every single US citizen at zero cost with the amount of taxes that are already paid and collected currently. But what would be left for people to achieve on their own? What would a person take pride in accomplishing for themselves at that point? It would be a Brave New World indeed at that point, would it not?

why would people need free iPods & cars??? if anything those are the items people should have to pay for as they are luxury items....but basic necessities like food clothing shelter medical dental & education should be easily obtainable if not free.

reply to post by matth


Thank you Matt.

Unfortunately the drug pushers (companies) want to keep peddling the questionable and speculative drugs along with the tested and useful. They want to keep the obscene profits they make doing it.

What other business can you get caught red handed, killing people, and attempting to drug children and then go back to work the next day?

That's quite a business.

I live in Florida and drugs are recalled as fast as they are approved. There's always a long list of attorneys filing lawsuits for this or that: "Have you or someone you known suffered blank, blank, blank, or DIED from taking blank?" I always get a kick out of it. If I am dead, how am I gonna call you buddy?

Add to the drug business the insurance business. Money grubbing scammers standing between a patient their doctor and wellness.
Insurance executives and CEO's are typically paid 20 million dollars a year.
They want to appear vital and maintain those paychecks.

That's pretty much why people are fighting healthcare.
Because those folks above are waging a campaign against it as if their lives depended on it.

They paid for a lot of negative publicity (bottomless reserves of cash so they keep at it until people wear down and start to believe the lie) Now people are eating out of their hands, saying whatever they want them to say.

And these rich folks have formed an pact with other rich folks, also guilty of collecting unheard of sums of cash for basically fooling people into thinking they can't live without them. They all got together to form a political party for the express purpose of covering each others buttocks. It's called the GOP

One will lie and the other will swear to it. Now it is a rule they have to back each other up like that or get hung out to dry. You see some infighting but it is a ruse to make you think they are not in 100% lockstep like robots.

The oil and fuel producing companies (and people) who made record profits every year for the past 10 years of this oil war, don't want you checking out wind or solar so they'll tell you things like.... global warming is a hoax.
Well what would you say if you are making a fortune fracking and extracting and promoting burning fossil fuels?

And the rest of them go along with it because they are all in it together.

War is awesome for Companies like Boeing and Lockheed Martin, the military equipment and weapons manufacturers.

Fear is great for gun makers.

There's a lot more in this unholy alliance, bankers for example but among the most influential is the Walton family of Walmarts who are beginning to form the new model for the American worker employer relationship. They managed to limit class action lawsuits, workers rights to organize, they keep minimum wage low and are attacking unions at every chance. They repeat the line "Obama is attacking and over regulating small business - that creates jobs in this country." Try to suggest that's why we have a job loss. lol

First by small business they mean 500 employees or less.

Second: The job loss is because Walmarts put EVERY SINGLE mom & pop out of business
and they are losing their homes now. Same with every person that pop and pop employed.

And then Walmarts buys everything they sell from China so large US manufacturing and major wholesalers take a hit too. Many people in the US manufacturing are put out of work.

Walmarts is why we are out of jobs
Walmarts is why we do not produce anything ourselves anymore - Walmart can buy it from China.

That is why we are losing our middleclass to poverty
and China's poor are raising up to middleclass.

Anyway these people above have enough money that they can do or buy anything - even a country.

Sadly none of this $$$ would work - if people could connect the dots.
But they are bombarded with the ads and like a theme song you hate - before you know it - you are singing it yourself. It takes a strong mind not to fall for the monotone singsong of an agenda that's shoved down your throats relentlessly at the behest of Corporations like Walmarts, weapons, fuel, pharmaceutical, and insurance companies.

Your average republican is actually hilarious.

They want to live in the best neighborhood in the City, but refuse the pay the going rate for a house in a good neighborhood. In particular, they will not pay for a fee/tax that helps to improve the schools/roads in the good neighborhood because it will benefit those that are unworthy in their eyes. Yeah, your average republican reeks with elitism and feels entitled to this belief somehow.

Originally posted by kozmo
reply to post by matth

 

You see, the American culture used to believe that NOTHING is free and that only hard work pays. Socialism has done a great deal to erode that once universal belief and led to an entitlement culture. We would like to see our libertarian roots reinvigorated so that each INDIVIDUAL can live up to their potential, on their own merits.


Sincerely,
Kozmo

Why are there so many Americans out there with this mentality? What about the naturally born weak? The less fortunate? Those born with disabilities? Not everyones "potential" is strong enough to make it in "your" kind of world...which seems to be "survival of the fittest". We are not animals, we are humans and there needs to be more compassion out there for the less fortunate. Nobody wants to help out their neighbor in a sense....it's every man for himself. Your idea of "hard work" might vary greatly to someone that puts in many hours bagging groceries because they were in a car accident growing up and lost the mental ability to get that higher education so they can make higher earnings therefore being able to afford insurance. Not all companies privide health insurance these days. Everyone deserves affordable health care.

There are so many responses against PPACA that I have seen in the media and the internet filled with hyperbole and slippery slope arguments, and it's getting ridiculous. This is not the end of the world as we know it. In regards to the constitution I believe it was meant to be read as a living document that changes according to different standards.

As an American I find PPACA to be step in the right direction, although I along with others view BigPharma and insurance companies particularly abhorrent. We can only hope this puts the foot in the door to nationalize the insurance companies or to give us the three choices of employer insurance/government insurance/private insurance like some European nations. That way the amount citizens are taxed is a small price to pay, as compared to, the insurance rates now which are due to pharmaceutical companies getting pharmaceutical reps that bribe doctors with nice dinners and gifts to sell their drugs. Which then forces the patient to use the high priced drugs causing premiums to skyrocket. Why else would people go to other countries to get prescription drugs at a cheaper cost?

I know that even now in the big city I live in the uninsured get declined at for profit hospitals even with an emergency. The hospital will send them to a nonprofit hospital in my city which owes money to the government because the uninsured cannot afford the medical bills, and so the taxpayers pay that bill right now anyway. If the taxpayers did not take the weight off that nonprofit hospital it would not be operating today. With PPACA those uninsured people will have to buy insurance themselves and taxpayers will not have to pay the bill for the patient anymore.

In regards to:
reply to post by EvilSadamClone

People shouldn't be forced to pay for anything. And I for one, would love to see a section on the IRS tax form that would allow me to put where my taxes go. I do believe wholeheartedly in having insurance, and I am not opposed to the government offering help for people. But it should not be extortion and should not be mandatory.

That idea is part of a participatory democracy. If I had the choice to vote with my taxes on what to spend it on I would put 0% (yeah 0%) of my taxes into national defense instead of something around 50% because we know what those wars are for anyway, I’ll let the other warmongers spend their taxes on that. If you want to see what it would be like to choose how you would want to spend your taxes check out this website.

Of course with that idea the government would most likely only allow us to choose what 50% of our taxes go into as a safety net just in case we all put our eggs in the same basket.

reply to post by matth


After some reflection I recognized that I don't wish to debate this topic further.

reply to post by matth


I'm sure this has been said many times already, but Obamacare is not "free healthcare" and it's nothing like what you have in Canada.

reply to post by matth


I dont believe you understand the complexity of the issue here. First of all I would agree that we should not be assisting the already corrupted system by feeding insurance companies, pharmaceuticals, pain clinics etc... The citizens of the US pays up to 600% of what other countries within the same GDP do for healthcare. The question of why is simple. Because the system is locked up and capitalism does not work in this scenario. It all started the day insurance companies became a requirement.

The answer should be just as simple and fair to everyone. Since we need insurance now a days how about making companies who fight to gain contracts with the government much like they do in Canada. Take the money equally out of taxes and if someone wants to pay more for higher costing doctors or drugs let them. But make everyone eligible to receive benefits.

Get rid of Medicaid. I worked for a pharmacy for five years. Tell me how is it fair for able bodied 20 year old minorities to receive free medicine and then a 70 year old person who labored for this country all their life gets shafted by the government with medicare; I heard relentless stories of some old people who had to wager their monthly income and have to chose between food or the $100 medicine their doctor prescribed. How is it fair that a friend of mine has a pre-existing medical condition which means he gets denied by every insurance agency while battling his low income job that he got with a four year degree.

If you think giving free things to low income people is fair think about what it is costing everyone else. Is it fair to rob the hard working people who are already struggling to pay for the lazy? I am at the point where I dont care about anyone else except my family. I will work hard to keep them healthy but I should not have the burden of everyone else. Pretty soon every working man will be paying not only for them but for another family as well. Is it right for them to suffer? No. Is it my responsibility? No. Evolution has been at work for billions of years. Who are we to decide it should be stopped?

Muammar Gaddafi's Libya had free healthcare.

Saddam Hussein's Iraq had free healthcare.

Co-incidence? I think not.

Seriously though it can't be any worse than it is now, to be the richest country in the world and have such a poor healthcare system is laughable. It is too expansive and inaccessible to too many people.

reply to post by charles1952


well being a Canadian that has now lived in Britian for the past 10yrs....I can say they are almost identical....the systems work in very similar ways...I love the fact that when your ill...you just go in and get checked out...yes sometimes there is a delay...but so what...If that is considered a sacrifice...I would say bring it on....I could not imagine not being able to be treated because i could not afford to....Also the American system they are trying to introduce will Fail....It is the concept that the more you put into one insurance scheme the cheaper the scheme...but I think Americans might just try to expect to much from the system...also in the beginning stages it will be under a great burden as the ones who could not afford it in the past will all of a suddenly want to have access to the system and it just might collapse...but i hope for the sake of Americans...you be patient and give the systems a chance...It is not slavery...It is giving the people an ability to stay healthy.

reply to post by Masterjaden


I am not sure where your coming from....but Medical in many countries is considered a right...and I think for myself...i think it is a right...just as it is a right to be treated as a human...I think it is upto the people to fight for these kind of rights...and It should upheld always....I agree with others that is is the corporate lobbyist that are trying the sway the American people....You all can try to say It is about socialism...But i would disagree...YOu all pay your taxes...so make it a demand that instead of spending Fortunes on your military...why not actually spend YOUR OWN TAX DOLLARS on YOUR OWN PEOPLE...I mean how dense do you have to be...YOU OWN THAT MONEY...not your government...I think that is what so many people forget...It is your money and you have the RIGHT to decide what it gets spent....so you can decide if it gets spent on killing people...or if it gets spent on saving people....your choice...so why not make a good choice for a change....you might be suprised at the out come.

Originally posted by matth
In a nutshell all I really have to say is "stop denying ignorance and think for a minute!"

I think what you mean to say is to actually deny ignorance. you seem to have blended the idea with the notion of saying "stop being ignorant" like a Rickyism (which is not an insult)

reply to post by matth


Hey matt did you even read the Bill? Obviously not! I realize i did't either but i did read most of the foot notes!
This is not socialized healthcare this is forced insurance! There is a difference and nothing is going to happen to the insurance industry except for them making massive profits! Do some real research before spouting ignorance!

reply to post by matth


100% agree with you mate.

As an Aussie I am able to hand my doctor or hospital a green Medicare card and have all my expenses paid for. Really, it's that simple.

It's beyond me why Americans don't want this, it defies all logic and rational reasoning. Sometimes I think Americans oppose things just for the sake of it, to make themselves feel like they have control or something.

It's completely ludicrous.

reply to post by matth


You want to talk about those of us who don't buy into the Obama care as ignorant when you don't even know that the Obama administration was CAUGHT red handed making deals with Big Pharma and in return the Obama administration would not pass a bill, among other things, in which they would make Big Pharma make medications cheaper?...

Even leftwinger new sites know this and have posted this fact...

Internal Memo Confirms Big Giveaways In White House Deal With Big Pharma

First Posted: 09/13/09 06:12 AM ET Updated: 05/25/11 02:50 PM ET

A memo obtained by the Huffington Post confirms that the White House and the pharmaceutical lobby secretly agreed to precisely the sort of wide-ranging deal that both parties have been denying over the past week.

The memo, which according to a knowledgeable health care lobbyist was prepared by a person directly involved in the negotiations, lists exactly what the White House gave up, and what it got in return.

It says the White House agreed to oppose any congressional efforts to use the government's leverage to bargain for lower drug prices or import drugs from Canada -- and also agreed not to pursue Medicare rebates or shift some drugs from Medicare Part B to Medicare Part D, which would cost Big Pharma billions in reduced reimbursements.

In exchange, the Pharmaceutical Researchers and Manufacturers Association (PhRMA) agreed to cut $80 billion in projected costs to taxpayers and senior citizens over ten years. Or, as the memo says: "Commitment of up to $80 billion, but not more than $80 billion."
...

www.huffingtonpost.com...

You want to talk about ignorance, when in part of Obamacare every person is FORCED to give away a dollar for abortion? Yes a dollar is not much, but what counts is the intention, and the intention of the Obama administration is to FORCE people to do their will...

It’s official. The concern pro-life organizations had about the ObamaCare legislation funding abortions has been confirmed, as the Obama administration has issued the final rules on abortion funding governing the controversial health care law.

Nestled within the “individual mandate” in the Obamacare act — that portion of the Act requiring every American to purchase government — approved insurance or pay a penalty — is an “abortion premium mandate.” This mandate requires all persons enrolled in insurance plans that include elective abortion coverage to pay a separate premium from their own pockets to fund abortion. As a result, many pro-life Americans will have to decide between a plan that violates their consciences by funding abortion, or a plan that may not meet their health needs.
...

www.lifenews.com...

The only truly ignorant person/people about this topic is you, and others like you who would rather just "believe" the claims by your masters than make your own research about the topic...

To you it might be okay and dandy that people are FORCED to do your will and the will of the government, and you might be okay with abortion, but there are people who view abortion as murder whether you want to agree with this view or not...

Who are you, or the government, to tell people what they should think or to be FORCED to do your will and that of the government?...

Originally posted by alphawhisky
Muammar Gaddafi's Libya had free healthcare.
Saddam Hussein's Iraq had free healthcare.
Co-incidence? I think not.
Seriously though it can't be any worse than it is now, to be the richest country in the world and have such a poor healthcare system is laughable. It is too expansive and inaccessible to too many people.

Is it not so that the new Iraq, as constructed by the U.S., also has universal health care? Ironic, ain't it?