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To My American Friends Re: Healthcare and Elections

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posted on Jul, 5 2012 @ 11:35 PM
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reply to post by matth
 


Thank you for that explanation. The current "Obamacare" law enacted is nothing like your Canadian system. If it were, I would be all for it. But as long as private, for-profit insurance companies administer these health care plans, our system will continue to be broken.

As it is, my husband and I cannot afford the monthly premiums, before or after Obamacare, so we have to go without and pay the tax penalty next year at tax time. I don't consider this a fair situation, and there will still be people in the middle class who cannot afford health care.

I don't have a problem helping people, or paying my fair share of taxes, but this was just forced purchase of a private insurance product with all the same problems: Denial of coverage, telling you what you can and cannot have as far as medical procedures and medications, etc.

To pay a tax so that all can benefit (much like a tax to pay for schools, police, firefighters, roads, libraries, etc), I have no problem with, and neither do most Americans. To be forced to purchase the same old garbage we had before is just too much to ask, and too much for me and my husband to afford.

I hope I have cleared it up for you. We're not selfish monsters down here, but we know when we're being screwed vs. being helped.




posted on Jul, 5 2012 @ 11:36 PM
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I can only speak for myself, but from what I have seen, most dislike this law because of the mandate it includes and what the supreme court decision could mean with regards to our rights. It opens a door that should not ever be opened, where our government can tax us for failing to make purchases from for-profit companies they deem are in the best interest of the public or face an extra tax bill. This goes against the very grain of what our Constitution stands for.

Besides, the economy is already in trouble and additional spending is only going to make matters worse. We have to address the problem with our government thinking that our wallets are their personal piggy banks that be raided at will. They need to answer some tough questions to justify the out of control spending that has been going on for decades and they need to listen to the people who pay for the programs they institute.

Also, I personally have no problem with the government offering a public/federal program to insure those who fall through the cracks in our current system if, and only if, we fix the 80 Billion dollar annual fraud problem that exists in our current federally funded programs, Medicaid & Medicare. That is just a start, but there have been many alternatives that would do wonders that have been ignored by those in charge.

And as has been pointed out many times, this bill was not even read by those who passed it. That is something that should NEVER happen. Doesn't matter what political party someone is affiliated with, I think we can agree on this point alone.



posted on Jul, 5 2012 @ 11:40 PM
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reply to post by Ahabstar
 


Comparing free health care, housing and education to free iPods shows me your inability (or simply choosing not to) to understand the point.

By the way, health care, housing and education should be considered human rights for all. But let's start with baby steps and maybe provide AFFORDABLE healthcare, housing and education for all. Or that too welfare/socialist/globalist (??) for you? Could you imagine a nation where at least education and health care are covered as opposed to government kickbacks and bailouts? It would lead to one vastly improving society who don't have to worry about surviving, so they could worry about bettering themselves and the community at large. Novel thought. That's probably why TPTB use these propgangda campaigns against you guys to make you reject them tooth and nail...and wow are they ever successful at it!



posted on Jul, 5 2012 @ 11:41 PM
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Originally posted by matth

Originally posted by beezzer
reply to post by matth
 
But American leaders DO put people first. By respecting their freedom of self-determination. Government intervention regardless of the intent or benevolence would eliminate that freedom.



While in principal I agree with your statement, but as it pertains to health care (and other topics as well), I think that's just the line of bull they use to feed the general public to justify ripping your off and lining these corporate coffers with cash.


Believe me, I don't trust any poliicians "altruism" in regards to my freedom. The Constitution does a fairly good job of inhibiting their intent.

Corporate influence can be eliminated with honest people in leadership positions. Diogenes and I are still looking though.



posted on Jul, 5 2012 @ 11:43 PM
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Originally posted by Ex_CT2
reply to post by matth
 


"...don't you think that because of the United States' leadership on the world stage (both truthfully and self-proclaimed) that they should be in the front of the line of countries declaring adequate health care a human right for all, if not then just American, citizens?"

You're not getting it: This is NOT about adequate healthcare. In fact it's not even about healthcare. This is a sellout to Big Pharma and Big Insurance. For Christ's sake listen to us--or look it up.


And I keep telling you I know that already and have already explained thats not the point in a previous post.



posted on Jul, 5 2012 @ 11:46 PM
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Like arguing with a fencepost. I'm done....



posted on Jul, 5 2012 @ 11:46 PM
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reply to post by FissionSurplus
 


I definitely sympathize with you and in no way think you guys are selfish...I just worry sometimes that the American general public fail to see the big picture here. Question about Obamacare because I really don't know the answer but what happens if you can't afford insurance? Is there a exemption on people who can't afford health care or another option through the government?



posted on Jul, 5 2012 @ 11:59 PM
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Originally posted by matth
reply to post by FissionSurplus
 


I definitely sympathize with you and in no way think you guys are selfish...I just worry sometimes that the American general public fail to see the big picture here. Question about Obamacare because I really don't know the answer but what happens if you can't afford insurance? Is there a exemption on people who can't afford health care or another option through the government?


As someone who is uninsured, and pays out of pocket for my health care, I can answer this one. Either I buy the expensive insurance that I would rarely use or pay the tax. (The tax would be cheaper for me)



posted on Jul, 6 2012 @ 12:06 AM
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reply to post by matth
 


Our governement down here is more corrupt than yours.
We will wind up being forced to pay for top notch health care but when we actually 'need' it (think cancer pneumonia something you would need to go to the hospital for) instead of real care we will be handed 2 precription but same as over the counter motrin and sent away to get better or die. - unless you had the fore thought to grease the right political palms.


edit on 6-7-2012 by VforVendettea because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 6 2012 @ 12:07 AM
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reply to post by matth
 


The iPod was a throw in. And actually it was one of those old long haired hippies by the name of Thomas Jefferson that proposed free education for all. You would know his work on the Declaration of Independence as well as being the third President. Oh, and that natural born citizen thing that people like to hang Obama on? Yep, that was him as well. Of course that was to keep Alexander Hamilton from ever becoming president. Hamilton was the first Sec of Treasury under Washington and advocated for an industrial society over agricultural. Hamilton also championed pretty hard for a central banking system. In fact, Hamiltonian principals are pretty much what put us in this global financial mess we are all in now as he would have been all for outsourcing of jobs and global free trade agreements.

About the only thing Hamilton did right was cause the Whiskey Rebellion with the sin tax on alcohol. That is how we came to drop the Articles of Confederation and replaced it with the Constitution. Good thing Aaron Burr got Hamilton in that duel, who knows how bad he could have hosed the country in the early days. Which oddly enough, Hamilton was the center of the first DC sex scandal and the lawyer that handled the divorce of the woman he had the affair with some years prior to that duel was Aaron Burr. Small world.



posted on Jul, 6 2012 @ 12:14 AM
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Originally posted by matth
reply to post by FissionSurplus
 


I definitely sympathize with you and in no way think you guys are selfish...I just worry sometimes that the American general public fail to see the big picture here. Question about Obamacare because I really don't know the answer but what happens if you can't afford insurance? Is there a exemption on people who can't afford health care or another option through the government?


I think this section might allow for an exemption from the penalty if they cannot afford the insurance:
"(H) subject to section 1411, grant a certification
attesting that, for purposes of the individual responsibility
penalty under section 5000A of the Internal Revenue Code
of 1986, an individual is exempt from the individual
requirement or from the penalty imposed by such section
because—
(i) there is no affordable qualified health plan
available through the Exchange, or the individual’s
employer, covering the individual; or
(ii) the individual meets the requirements for any
other such exemption from the individual responsibility
requirement or penalty;"

Its part II, section 1311 pp. 59 H



I kind of looked at the other sections on the outline of the bill, but 900+ pages? This must have been passed in a rush!

edit on 6-7-2012 by LR2543 because: ACA 2010, H. R. 3590, 11th Cong. (2010) Retrieved from The Library of Congress Website



posted on Jul, 6 2012 @ 01:32 AM
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Being someone with one foot in America and one foot in another country that has socialized medicine, I am watching this discussion with a strange sense of a chasm of misunderstanding between these opinions.

The idea that healthcare, and housing, should be a right for all is a cultural value. It is not a universal truth. One cannot insist that a different culture adopt their values!

There are deeper differences in world view that are under this. It doesn't sound like you grasp what those are- that is why the American attitudes don't seem to have any logic to them.

Nothing is good or bad in itself- it depends upon context. What works for one doesn't work for another.
My personal opinion is that a universal healthcare system as exists in other countries would not work in the US.
The people would not use it in the same way, the pharmaceutical companies are not the same, the total mentality is incompatible! The biggest obstacle is the lack of cohesion as a nation.

Everyone considers themself first and foremost an individual, and does not trust "herd mentality", those that believe others would take advantage of them indiscriminately? Listen to them. They get that idea from their own drives and intents- they think that because THEY woud do that.
The idea that a government, or any function could exist not for profit is pretty much unimaginable- which makes it pretty much impossible to impliment- and yet that is essential to the working of universal healthcare.

Bref- I think the cultural values and mores in America cannot support a universal healthcare program, and if it tries it will be a disaster. It could only work after a long long period of cultural change, which could take many, many years.



posted on Jul, 6 2012 @ 11:38 AM
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Originally posted by matth
reply to post by Ex_CT2
 


No I've done plenty of research with an open mind and my conclusion remains the same. .


Really? You sound like just another MSM, left wing shill who's repeating all the talking points and demonizing a political party you know nothing but outside of what you've seen on left wing websites. Do you live in America? what do you know about our culture? what do you know about the people who live here?



posted on Jul, 6 2012 @ 11:40 AM
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Originally posted by matth

Originally posted by beezzer
reply to post by matth
 


The big difference (with all due respect) is that countries like yours, healthcare is considered a right.

In America it is not. It is a personal responsibility. An aspect of self-determination. The "right" to seek medical attention, or obtain medical insurance is left soley up to the individual.

Just my humble opinion.


Fair enough...but don't you think that because of the United States' leadership on the world stage (both truthfully and self-proclaimed) that they should be in the front of the line of countries declaring adequate health care a human right for all, if not then just American, citizens? To me this is a no brainer, and a perfect example of how easy it is to be desensitized by human suffering, in their own western country, because they look at it as an election issue or newspaper headline as opposed to seeing for what it really is: human suffering in the name of profits.

People should always come before profits. Always.


Look, your people may be more than willing to give up their self determination and liberty in favor of a big, intrusive government. Most Americans were brought up differently. We are a country born from rebellion against such governments.

Basically, misery loves company. Just because you all have jumped off a bridge, doesn't mean we should too.

why are you so worried about our country anyway? shouldn't you be worried about your own?


edit on 6-7-2012 by PvtHudson because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 6 2012 @ 11:54 AM
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Originally posted by PvtHudson
Look, your people may be more than willing to give up their self determination and liberty in favor of a big, intrusive government. Most Americans were brought up differently. We are a country born from rebellion against such governments.

Few things...
Obama care, while it is more inclusive that the present set (or lack) of programs, is still a licence for insurance companies to make scads of dough. Remove the profit margin and your costs drop...what? 30-50%?

Second, for a nation that is as slap-happy as it is about the paramountcy of America and Americans, a lot of you really are unduly inclined towards throwing your less fortunate under the bus.

Finally, all that fooferah about "this is not about taking care of your fellow Americans...this is about the abrogation of personal freedoms!" is a crop of crap. That's simply the kiss you get from your politicians as they are screwing the bejeezuz out of you.

We decided that universal health care was a right in our country...now it is. Simple as that.



posted on Jul, 6 2012 @ 12:09 PM
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reply to post by matth
 


Dear matth,

I am an American Citizen, a voter, a tax-payer and a hard worker.

Your take on OUR healthcare means so little to me when I see so many of your countrymen flocking into our hospitals to have proceedures that they either cannot receive in Canada or have to wait an extraordinary amount of time to receive. Additionally, you apparently have zero understanding of our Constitutional protections nor an understanding of Judicial precedent which is an even more important element of the on-going discussion. Finally, it seems you are slightly math challenged in your belief that Obama has determined that the 1% who will be subjected to the penalty can somehow cover the 30 million newly covered patients without a MASSIVE increase in rates.

You see, the American culture used to believe that NOTHING is free and that only hard work pays. Socialism has done a great deal to erode that once universal belief and led to an entitlement culture. Whereas that may work for you and all of the other nations that continue to provide services that they cannot pay for, the vast majority of Americans still do not see it that way. The majority of my countrymen do not wish to go the way of the Greece's and Canada's of the world. No, quite the opposite. We would like to see our libertarian roots reinvigorated so that each INDIVIDUAL can live up to their potential, on their own merits.

So, seeing as how you don't have a horse in this race I'll simply thank you for your completely uninformed opinion and request that you leave this debate to those of us who will be affected by such misguided characterizations of the benefits "Free healthcare". In the interim, might I suggest that you continue to enjoy your rationed care?

Sincerely,
Kozmo



posted on Jul, 6 2012 @ 12:16 PM
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Originally posted by JohnnyCanuck

Originally posted by PvtHudson
We decided that universal health care was a right in our country...now it is. Simple as that.


Awesome!
Now keep it there. The majority of us did not and still do not and we'd like it gone! And while you're at it... could ask all of those Candians at the Cleveland Clinic what they're doing there... seeing as how awesome and spectacular your FREE healthcare system is??? Ok, thanks.



posted on Jul, 6 2012 @ 12:27 PM
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Originally posted by kozmo
...could ask all of those Candians at the Cleveland Clinic what they're doing there... seeing as how awesome and spectacular your FREE healthcare system is???
For the most part? Elective surgery. Even a restaurant waiting line has queue jumpers. In public health, you have to pay for the privalege.

Oh, and how about the ones whose bill is being paid for by our government insurance?

We take care of your own. Y'all are apparently disinclined. C'est la vie.



posted on Jul, 6 2012 @ 12:42 PM
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You are right about this, Matt: I can't decide when I get sick. But I can decide who I want running this country come election time and it's not going to be either Obama or Romney. I am going to do my bit and try to get the guy I think will be best for our country and that is Ron Paul.

Our new health care system hurts the low income, part time workers out there who can't afford health insurance. And look: our jobs data was just released today and it's not great. We fell short 10,000 jobs of the projected goal. More small businesses are going to be laying people off because they can't afford to offer everyone healthcare insurance so I am looking at the bigger picture here and I don't see anything that's good.

That's just my 2 cents.



posted on Jul, 6 2012 @ 01:00 PM
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Originally posted by matth

Originally posted by beezzer
reply to post by matth
 
But American leaders DO put people first. By respecting their freedom of self-determination. Government intervention regardless of the intent or benevolence would eliminate that freedom.



While in principal I agree with your statement, but as it pertains to health care (and other topics as well), I think that's just the line of bull they use to feed the general public to justify ripping your off and lining these corporate coffers with cash.


You dont live here and your arguing a point that you obviously dont understand. Those people without healthcare you are talking about are an inflated statistic currently caused by a large number of unemployed and ordinarily insured Americans. Also a large portion are people who have too much money already and prefer to not have insurance and another group like myself that currently just chose not to have it because I am on contract and would rather my check be larger right now.

This is not a health care system at all. Not even close to one. It is totally different no matter how they try to sell it. This is the same system we currently have but with a few rules put in place to help out those who always get helped out. The ones on welfare, the ones on food stamps, the ones who refuse to work. Those are the people it helps. And half of those people have other options whether they choose to use them or not.

Dont believe all the hype. If this were a great idea half the states in the union wouldnt be trying to opt out of it. If it were truly like the euro or canadian system we might not be so far against it. There is a bid difference in something being "Provided" and something being "Force". And as Americans it is in our nature to not want to be "Forced" to do a Damn Thing.



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