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To My American Friends Re: Healthcare and Elections

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posted on Jul, 6 2012 @ 01:02 PM
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reply to post by JohnnyCanuck
 



Obama care, while it is more inclusive that the present set (or lack) of programs, is still a licence for insurance companies to make scads of dough. Remove the profit margin and your costs drop...what? 30-50%?

Just a small thing, but over the last quarter the profit margin for insurance companies was 4.5%




posted on Jul, 6 2012 @ 01:21 PM
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Originally posted by FissionSurplus

As it is, my husband and I cannot afford the monthly premiums, before or after Obamacare, so we have to go without and pay the tax penalty next year at tax time. I don't consider this a fair situation, and there will still be people in the middle class who cannot afford health care.


Run the numbers here on this calculator and compare to the tax penalty.

healthreform.kff.org...

The penalty would be roughly $95 in 2014 and rise to $695 in 2016 and it is capped.

So penalty ranges from $8 dollars per month 2 years from now to $60 per month four years from now.
edit on 6-7-2012 by Indigo5 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 6 2012 @ 01:22 PM
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Originally posted by JohnnyCanuck

Originally posted by PvtHudson
Look, your people may be more than willing to give up their self determination and liberty in favor of a big, intrusive government. Most Americans were brought up differently. We are a country born from rebellion against such governments.

Few things...
Obama care, while it is more inclusive that the present set (or lack) of programs, is still a licence for insurance companies to make scads of dough. Remove the profit margin and your costs drop...what? 30-50%?

Second, for a nation that is as slap-happy as it is about the paramountcy of America and Americans, a lot of you really are unduly inclined towards throwing your less fortunate under the bus.

Finally, all that fooferah about "this is not about taking care of your fellow Americans...this is about the abrogation of personal freedoms!" is a crop of crap. That's simply the kiss you get from your politicians as they are screwing the bejeezuz out of you.

We decided that universal health care was a right in our country...now it is. Simple as that.


Your either not paying attention, or ignoring what has been said so far. This bill isnt about giving everyone healthcare. Its not a free system. We still have to buy healthcare just like we always have. What part of that are you missing? What this did was guarantee the insurance companies like 30 million new customers. And your somehow thinking this is a free service? Get real. This is a joke. They can call it free all day and it doesnt make it so. Its not free. It will cost me more, American more and probably lead to more lay offs.

And why the hell are people from Canada trying to tell us we need this? How does this benefit you? Or am I missing something?



posted on Jul, 6 2012 @ 02:05 PM
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reply to post by FissionSurplus
 


if i had a choice of just walking up to a doctor, showing a healthcard and getting treated, or having my case pending while a panel of corporate bean counters looks over financial records to decide if it makes economic sense to start treatment, the choice is beyond obvious.

canada is one of the most technologically advanced countries on earth, their treatment and equipment is just as good and effective as americas.

the only difference would be the minor extra frills americans get to justify their insurance packages, like large private rooms etc.

but then again, there is private insurance that all companies give their employees that don't actually pay for treatment, but cover all the extra frills like private rooms, medication, dental etc.

so there is a public and private collaboration that gives you healthcare coverage that rivals american healthcare.

and you don't have to be rich to have access to it.



posted on Jul, 6 2012 @ 02:23 PM
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reply to post by matth
 


"I have however got good quality health care from any doctor I have seen. Not as good as privatized American style health care mind you"

Your statement is one of the reasons that I have a problem with Obama Care. I also don't have to wait to see my doctor. I called this morning, and got in today.

Also, you have overlooked something. EVERYONE in the US, whether they have insurance or not, got healthcare.
Hospitals are REQUIRED to treat anyone who walks in off the street, with insurance or not and regardless of they can pay or not.

Do I think that we needed changes to the system? But I DIDN'T want to have something that is incomplete, and something that those that were shoving it down our throats didn't even read. I could not believe the idiotic statement of Nancy Pelosi "let's get this passed and we'll find out what is in it afterwards."

That is where I have a problem.



posted on Jul, 6 2012 @ 02:42 PM
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Originally posted by TheTardis
Your either not paying attention, or ignoring what has been said so far. This bill isnt about giving everyone healthcare. Its not a free system. We still have to buy healthcare just like we always have. What part of that are you missing? What this did was guarantee the insurance companies like 30 million new customers. And your somehow thinking this is a free service?

I guess you missed the part where I said "Obama care, while it is more inclusive that the present set (or lack) of programs, is still a licence for insurance companies to make scads of dough. Remove the profit margin and your costs drop...what? 30-50%?"

And why the hell are people from Canada trying to tell us we need this? How does this benefit you? Or am I missing something?

I guess you missed the part where the friendly OP says

"Dear American Brothers and Sisters, Hi my name is Matt and I'm from Canada. Just wanted to drop you guys a line to talk about some of your perceived fears of "free" healthcare."




Originally posted by charles1952
reply to post by JohnnyCanuck
 


Obama care, while it is more inclusive that the present set (or lack) of programs, is still a licence for insurance companies to make scads of dough. Remove the profit margin and your costs drop...what? 30-50%?

Just a small thing, but over the last quarter the profit margin for insurance companies was 4.5%
You know, I was a tad confused about that figure until I took into account that hospitals are major profit engines as well. Shall we amend my comments to say that our publicly funded system does not have to suffer the ignominy of having to serve Wall Street ahead of the users?
Still...

For example, in 1993, insurance companies typically spent 95% of customers' premiums on medical benefits (this is called the "Medical Loss Ratio"). By 2009, many insurance companies were routinely denying policy claims in order to ensure that no more than about 85% of premiums were put back into medical benefits, while plowing the excess profits into executive salaries. During the same time frame, Medicare has reinvested 97% of premiums into medical benefits. Yet in 2009, health insurance corporations posted a 56% average increase in profits (one posted a 91% increase) while dropping coverage for nearly 3,000,000 Americans. The health care reforms under discussion in early 2010 would deny excessive profits for for-profit insurers, mandating that 90% of profits be utilized for medical benefits.healthcareprovider.info...

...therefore you take the profit margin out of universal health care, and more are served.

I mean really...disqualifying folks from being treated because they are already sick? Are you kidding?



posted on Jul, 6 2012 @ 03:34 PM
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reply to post by matth
 
Hi matth - was hoping you could clarify this for me.

Since 'Obamacare' is by no means free healthcare or a single-payer system like some other countries have, but instead is a forced buying of healthcare (and penalization if you don't) provided by these same health insurance providers and big pharma companies you mention we should instead want to "stick it to" (meaning they BENEFIT from this)...how exactly is it a step in the right direction?

How exactly will it prevent people from having to declare bankruptcy, or insurance providers from telling the hospital to 'kick my ass onto the street'?

If our government didn't waste so much money and essentially void so much other money through stupid ideas, a single-payer system or something more like it might actually BE nice - but this is far afield from that kind of setup. This just merely mandates that we have to buy products and services from the same groups that have been screwing us over and driving up costs in the first place - and when you take away a right to refuse a product, it seems to me you also take away a little bit more incentive for providers to keep their costs as low as they already do.

Thanks in advance for your thoughts on this - I haven't read deeply into the thousands of pages on this or studied all of the implications, but the points I mention are what seem solid so far.



posted on Jul, 6 2012 @ 03:59 PM
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Originally posted by matth
reply to post by FissionSurplus
 


I definitely sympathize with you and in no way think you guys are selfish...I just worry sometimes that the American general public fail to see the big picture here. Question about Obamacare because I really don't know the answer but what happens if you can't afford insurance? Is there a exemption on people who can't afford health care or another option through the government?


We (Americans) are concerned about those of you who fail to see the bigger picture as well. What happens if we can't afford insurance, is that we either apply for a program in our area, and if none is available or we make too much for medicare and/or medicaid we might fall through the cracks..however, one can always be treated in the ER (emergency room) if nothing else. Utilizing the ER in this way though (for non-emergency issue) is one of the reasons that hospital & insurance companies are high (at least we are told).

Once Obamas HCR is implemented those who don't buy insurance will be fined. Fined means being punished for not buying something that our govt. says we must. In this country it's never been mandated that citizens be forced by their govt. to purchase anything or be fined and/or taxed. Many of us feel that this is unconstitutional, and as such, we would be giving up our rights if we conform to this HCR(health-care reform).

You seem to think that this is a step in the right direction because it might be the beginning of something good in America, Many of of us think this is the beginning of something that may be very wrong, and even has the potential to make other changes that can be bad for us, or at least open the door for this to be allowed to happen.
The propaganda here is when you dismiss an argument because you didn't like the analogy, even though with a fraction of common sense it was obvious that the argument was clear and obvious.

The bigger picture has been pointed out clearly in some of the comments that I've read.



posted on Jul, 6 2012 @ 04:07 PM
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reply to post by JohnnyCanuck
 


Ok. I miss understood what you were getting at there. But the OP's question is leading. It is obvious he thinks we should juts accept what our government is trying to push on us. And to be honest if they told me we were going to have the same as Canada and it wouldnt cost me more or maybe less. I would think about it. But make no mistake. We would still be giving up some things because, as was said above. I can see my doctor today or tomorrow without even giving a reason. And I hear a lot of stories of people coming here for medical treatment because you guys list a lot of things as elective or cosmetic and do not cover them.



posted on Jul, 6 2012 @ 04:16 PM
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Originally posted by matth
reply to post by Ahabstar
 


Comparing free health care, housing and education to free iPods shows me your inability (or simply choosing not to) to understand the point.

By the way, health care, housing and education should be considered human rights for all. But let's start with baby steps and maybe provide AFFORDABLE healthcare, housing and education for all. Or that too welfare/socialist/globalist (??) for you? Could you imagine a nation where at least education and health care are covered as opposed to government kickbacks and bailouts? It would lead to one vastly improving society who don't have to worry about surviving, so they could worry about bettering themselves and the community at large. Novel thought. That's probably why TPTB use these propgangda campaigns against you guys to make you reject them tooth and nail...and wow are they ever successful at it!


I think it was you who misunderstood the point, but it was clear to me. Ahabstar was saying that with the amount of taxes already being collected that our govt. could already be paying for these things. I'll start with baby steps and just ask you, what part of this is not free healthcare do you not understand? What part of we are being forced to purchase something (for whatever reasons) and this goes against what and who we are as a people, not to mention our constitution..is so difficult to understand?

You can continue giving your reasons as to why you think we are wrong to simply not blindly allow our govt. to mislead us and force us to purchase from insurance company (or govt. itself) that's ok-your opinion. We hear you, and yet, we don't all agree with you and some have made their reasons clear.



posted on Jul, 6 2012 @ 04:23 PM
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$60 a month is a huge hit to people making $1,200 a month.

Sure, it may be a pin drop in the bucket for a millionaire, but most taxes do not come from millionaires, they come from the poor people.

And that's what obamacare is going to start doing, you either pay $95 or up to 2.5% of you monthly check, whichever is greater.

I really don't see how that's fair to poor people.

And of course, that money is not going to the poor it's going to the rich to make them even richer.

Which to me sounds like a far cry from Canada.



posted on Jul, 6 2012 @ 04:28 PM
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You forget the only thing America is good at is getting fatter and blowing sh!t up...



posted on Jul, 6 2012 @ 04:44 PM
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Originally posted by ConspiracyBuff
You forget the only thing America is good at is getting fatter and blowing sh!t up...
I'll go out on a limb and disagree. I'm not sure why you keep electing such swine...but our Steve is no poster child for democracy, either. Still, I've said it before and I'll say it again, one-on-one Americans are an open, friendly, generous people. I always enjoy visiting the States (though I'm happy to get home) and I hope to again soon. Just don't get sick.



posted on Jul, 6 2012 @ 04:46 PM
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I think many people that complain about this "tax", would prefer an A la carte system where they get to choose what their taxes go to...

And they would then live in squalor and high crime because they don't know the repercussions of that problem. Being forced to pay for healthcare of get a penalty?

Anyone without insurance AND poor ever had a a terrible toothache that had to be treated? It can be a life threatening situation. Yet, until you're unconscious and near death, you CAN'T get treated for it without having to pay an exorbitant amount of money.

The fine for NOT getting healthcare is more than the cost of healthcare. You see yourself as being forced to get healthcare, but how do you feel about being forced to get car insurance? Or being forced to pony up taxes for things you may never use? Welcome to a civilized society. Where the haves sometimes have to help the have-nots. You didn't attain success on your own. You did it on the backs of others.

I have NO sympathy for anyone complaining about being forced to pay for healthcare. There are enough escape pods built into the plan to prevent the poverty-stricken from getting overburdened.

I'd love to live in a country where the profit is taken out of the healthcare industry by and large. And I hope THIS country takes that step like all the other countries that have before it.



posted on Jul, 6 2012 @ 04:59 PM
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reply to post by JohnnyCanuck
 


I guess you missed the part where the friendly OP says

"Dear American Brothers and Sisters, Hi my name is Matt and I'm from Canada. Just wanted to drop you guys a line to talk about some of your perceived fears of "free" healthcare."
-----------
I don't think the headline was missed so much as it was more likely forgotten after reading;



"You folks would rather...........



"Really? "



"Newsflash! (and) Here's another cup of truth for you:



"You people actually think that it is normal, right,......
....


"You want to talk about "death panels"? I know you Rebublican, Rush Limbaugh/Alex Jones fanboys reading this want to! "...



"They're called "insurance companies".



"Fun fact:



"America, it never ceases to amaze me at how ridiculous you sound sometimes."



"It really is amazing in a sickening type of way
.


"The blind patriotism is cute sometimes,



"Instead of whining about the prospect of healthcare coverage ....
....


(I know...scary thought)



".or how they will rebuild America's pathetic non-military infrastructure...



"or how exactly they plan on breaking your addiction to oil?



It might prove more useful in selecting a good leader. "



"Take the health care...we like it here in Canada and best of all were still just as democratic and free as you guys are...or so we think."





Sincerely, Matt


So you see, sometimes friendly headlines can be misleading. Sincerely,Robin

edit on 6-7-2012 by RobinB022 because: nvm.



posted on Jul, 6 2012 @ 05:01 PM
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People shouldn't be forced to pay for anything. And I for one, would love to see a section on the IRS tax form that would allow me to put where my taxes go.

I do believe wholeheartedly in having insurance, and I am not opposed to the government offering help for people. But it should not be extortion and should not be mandatory.



posted on Jul, 6 2012 @ 05:16 PM
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Originally posted by grahag
I have NO sympathy for anyone complaining about being forced to pay for healthcare. There are enough escape pods built into the plan to prevent the poverty-stricken from getting overburdened.

I'd love to live in a country where the profit is taken out of the healthcare industry by and large. And I hope THIS country takes that step like all the other countries that have before it.


The real issue here (which every arguement seems to discount) is about how the Govt. is going about enforcing healthcare, not health-care itself. Also, our Govt. isn't taking the profit away from, but giving more to the industry.



posted on Jul, 6 2012 @ 05:16 PM
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reply to post by matth
 


Thanks for your post. You bring up some very pertinent points that for some reason seem to slip right over the heads of those who call themselves Republicans, and worse yet, Christians.

I think part of the problem, if not the biggest one, is how gullible many of those people are. I have a couple of friends consistently post right wing lies and propaganda regarding the PPACA. The one today was priceless; it stated that an ER Dr had said that soon people on Medicare would not be able to get dialysis based on their age. Now the Dr named in the article is an actual Dr, the problem is that she didn't say this. And, there is nothing in the new law that would prevent ANYONE from receiving dialysis.

Even after I repeatedly explained that this was not true and cited chapter, verse and many fact finding websites that thoroughly debunked the chain Emails they, those people who posted them, refused to concede their error.

In closing my Canadian friend, stupid is the problem in the US. And as a wise man once said, "you can't fix stupid; not even with duct tape."



posted on Jul, 6 2012 @ 05:52 PM
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reply to post by RobinB022
 
The key is that there is a whole lot of effort being expended in dubbing universal health care as a Socialist boogieman...death panels and all kinds of associated Bravo Sierra. All you have to do is look at the profits being declared by Big Health. That's money that could keep a whole lot of you healthier, wealthier, and in your homes.

I pay about about $400 (in Ontario...screw Dalton) extra annually. As a result, my prostate cancer was cured for the money I spent in parking at the oncology centre...$32 Cdn. First rate, timely and cutting edge treatment. My standard of living is as good as yours...maybe better considering that our banking laws didn't allow the shenanigans that put y'all in such a fix...so the undue tax burden argument is crap, too.

The OP is trying to say that your politicians are lying to you. They are controlled by Big Health. Hey, real friends don't let friends get screwed by corporations, eh? Just to let you know, is all.



posted on Jul, 6 2012 @ 07:41 PM
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reply to post by matth
 


Why is then that some canadian nationals come to this country for surgery because they have to wait upqards of 4 years for it in canada? Just wandering why I heard a lot of complaints from patients having to wait and doctors complaining about not getting paid.



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