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UK ready to take on Israel over fate of children clapped in irons

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posted on Jun, 28 2012 @ 07:36 PM
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Originally posted by Muckster
Sorry but what kind of madness is this?!?! I was talking to ollncasino... i was asking him/her a direct question about his/her own personal feelings on an issue. So how can YOU answer?!?! Are you married or something?

Nope - however it wouldnt change the fact that we both answered your question. You just simply choose to ignore it because you cant refute the argument.


Originally posted by Muckster
Even you didn’t answer it directly... just said that because the UN says its ok it must be! Well if the UN said its ok to eat babies would that make it alright?

The UN stated Israel committed war crimes in the 2006 war with Lebanon and it was accepted.
The UN stated Hezzbullah committed war crimes in the 2006 war with Israel and it was rejected.

What the UN thinks is not the problem - selective moral and ethical standards by both groups are though.



Originally posted by Muckster
I didnt mean to be rude by ignoring you... but ATS is not the only thing in my life and i'm very busy today... so i am trying to keep my debate focussed. Had ollncasino answered directly in the first place i could have moved on and maybe addressed you sooner. But instead i have seen nothing but avoidance and that’s frustrating. I just want a straight answer to an issue that is central to this thread!

From your heart... is it ok to keep children in leg irons?

If they are in custody and its used for transpoort between 2 locations then yes I do. As I stated before, that you and others ignored, we need all the info on the judicial system in Israel, specifically the detention side of things to make an educated detemination on their use.

Since we dont know what the minor did, since we dont know his history, since we dont know what he is charged with (as the op source doesnt contain any of that info) we can only go on what we were given. Which is to say the article authors witnessed one minor in court, in legcuffs. Making the leap of logic from that to all kids are in leg shackles 24 / 7 is, again, false and not supported.


Originally posted by Muckster
And just in case you go down the whole “un says its alright” route... please keep in mind that the child, in leg irons, was IN court... not on a plane or being transported!

First off the UN is not a legislative body.
The UN is not a democratic entity...
The UN is not a government.
The UN cannot supercede domestic laws.

Second you dont know where the minor was transported from. Was he flown in? Bused in? Railed in? Walked over from a detention facility?

To purposely ignore those questions, and then make an attempt to restrict the view in order to force an answer you want, doesn't substantiate the claims, which is what the op article states time and again - claims.

Again you undermine your argument because of your stance on the UN, or any information, that supports your argument vs info that doesnt.

Its like Hezzbullah and the 2006 war and the warcrimes charge from the UN. They were all about supporting that UN decision when it took ISrael to task. When the same group gave their verdict on Hezzbullahs actions, finding they also committed war crimes, the UN was all of a sudden bought and paid for by the West.

When the UN concluded their investigation into the floatilla incursion, Hezzbullah was all about the UN being valid. When the UN concluded their investigation into the HArrari assasination, Hezzbullah stated any Muslim who accepts that verdict, any person who attempts to arrest those involved, would be labeled a traitor for working as an agent of Israel and the US and would be put to death.

You either accept all of the information or you dont. Selective arguments and ignoring words to change the meaning does not make the counter argument valid.

So yes, your question was answered, multiple times now, by both of us.
You, along with others, ignore it because you cannot refute the supporting information we used in our responses.

So let me leave you with this so their is no misunderstanding.

Should children be placed into legcuffs?
If the minors are not accused of a crime and are not in any type of custody then legcuffs, or any restraints for that matter, should never be used.

If the minors are in custody for a law violation, and there are established procedures for the transport from one location to another, I support the use of legcuffs.

Why do you not understand our answers?
You are trying to take a generic, broad, unsupported claim where we dont have all of the info to place the situation into (wait for it......wait for it.....) context and are wanting a very specific answer. It doesnt work that way and you should know better.

Actually, I think you do know better, you just dont like the answers given because you cannot refute the logic behind them.

The entire article documents "claims" and nothing more. Even the article states they were not able to confirm the claims and would be taking the issue back up with Israel.

Why you guys ignore those key words is telling. Can you explain to us why you are selectively interpreting the info that is not supported by the source?
edit on 28-6-2012 by Xcathdra because: (no reason given)




posted on Jun, 28 2012 @ 07:38 PM
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Child abduction by zionists;



An army of paedophiles.
edit on 28-6-2012 by Ilovecatbinlady because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 28 2012 @ 07:39 PM
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Originally posted by Kryties
reply to post by Muckster
 


It's funny, he's answering for someone else yet demanding we answer his questions personally. The bloke is a hypocrite.


once again, cant refute the facts / logic you attack the poster.

As far as the use of the word hypocritical I dont think you know what it means. If you did your posts would be a lot different than they are.

By all emans, refute the posts using supported, substantiated facts.

Prove us wrong.



posted on Jun, 28 2012 @ 07:43 PM
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Originally posted by Ilovecatbinlady
reply to post by Kryties
 


What is the difference between 'unprecedented access' and access?

I read somewhere that when you deal with sociopaths and psychopaths, they will over sell a lie with grandiose pronouncements.


Access would be where an everyday course of action is present and available.

Unprecedented access would be where a course of action is allowed that is normally not present nor available.

Access would be you going to a detention facility and being restricted to just the common / public areas.
Unprecedented access would be you going to a detention facility and being given access to the intake, processing, cell blocks, prisoners etc while being allowed to ask questions and challenge whats stated.

Its a simple concept to understand.



posted on Jun, 28 2012 @ 07:55 PM
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I hope the person trying who was trying to defend the false imprisonment and torture of children has been suitably corrected .
edit on 28-6-2012 by ZIPMATT because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 28 2012 @ 07:57 PM
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Originally posted by Ilovecatbinlady

Originally posted by MidnightTide
They can't help themselves can they, the agenda of the OP and other individuals ring loud and clear.



We are antizionists dude. There is nothing cryto about us so don't sublimate on us.

How many times do I need to spell it out. I think Israel commits war crimes and crimes against humanity, it tortures/rapes children and adults and it is a pariah state used as a cat's paw by the US for dirty business.


You chose to ignore everything that Hamas and every other terrorist group does.....you chose ignore everything negative that is done in the name of Islam, you chose to ignore that every freaking country in the globe will do horrible things in their best interest.

So go ahead and spout your hate, just don't think I will sit there and say nothing in response.



posted on Jun, 28 2012 @ 07:58 PM
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Originally posted by Kryties
We addressed this earlier in the thread mate, you're rehashing old nonsense. At what point in time did I claim these things? Hmm? Stop being bloody ridiculous.

You are the one who stated you dont care what the report states / what Israel states. There are reports that state Hamas / extremists groups target civilians and since you are defending those while dismissing the info, the statement I made stands.


Originally posted by Kryties
You've seriously lost the plot mate. Seek help.

You stated you didnt care and that you dont belive Israel can ever be truthful. Again my statement stands, and once again instead of refuting the point you launch a personal attack and obfuscate.

Did I misread your statement on that issue?


Originally posted by Kryties
Again, what a complete load of trollop. You've resorted to literally MAKING THINGS UP.


REally? So you didnt say this -
Your comments
Your rush to judgment on the claims
Your dismissal of info that doesnt support your agenda


Originally posted by Kryties
reply to post by Xcathdra
 


I don't care quite frankly. I believe the claims for what they are given what I know of Israels track record. As I said before in this thread, I will eat my foot and post it on ATS if I am wrong. I asked whether you would do the same if you are proven wrong....I note you deftly avoided answering that question btw.


So no, I did not make anything up. I simply dismantled your position by using facts and your own words. If you don't like that then you should think twice before responding and making claims.


Originally posted by Kryties
I'm done with you mate. You've proven you make stuff up to support your nonexistent arguments and are therefore not worthy of my time in replying any further.
edit on 28/6/2012 by Kryties because: (no reason given)

Again BiB, refute the facts and stop attacking the poster. Its a classic technique by those who cant dispute the facts so they try and change the focus in hopes of not being called out. I love calling people like you and the others out.

Your responses absolutely solidify my observation of you and a few others, that when it comes to being able to use facts to support your claims, you are unable to do so. Instead of admitting you are wrong, biased and lacking in knwledge of the complete situation, you choose to pack up your marbels and go home.

If you had a leg to stand on you would be able to easily refute the facts. If you remained on topic instead of turning this thred into a anti-Jewish anti-west diatribe that sounded better in the origianl german form, you would not of had your ass handed to you.

Better luck next time.
edit on 28-6-2012 by Xcathdra because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 28 2012 @ 08:04 PM
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reply to post by MidnightTide
 





You chose to ignore everything that Hamas and every other terrorist group does.....


Hamas occupy nobody and your beef with them is because they actively resist the Zionist state.

Do you know how small is Gaza? Hamas is the elected government of that conglomeration of refugee camps.

So how does Hamas compare to the Israel war machine? Very badly and you have the nerve to whinge on about Hamas.

You are just looking for excuses.




So go ahead and spout your hate


Whom am I hating. I thought I am full of compassion for the children being disappeared, tortured and raped by zionists.
edit on 28-6-2012 by Ilovecatbinlady because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 28 2012 @ 08:10 PM
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Originally posted by Djack
This has got to be the most ridiculous post i read so far,really.

Ditto



Originally posted by Djack
So because it has not been officially confirmed that kids as young as this,muslim and over the border in israel (as muslims) outside of their homeland which happens to be the most restricted country in the neighborhood ...

Was the kid Muslim?
Was he arrested outside of Israel?
Was he taken across a border?

Since none of the background info is present in order to place the minors appearence in court and legcuffs into context, you cannot make the leap of logic you are. Please suppor the above comments you made with sources so we all can put this into context.



Originally posted by Djack
...Should be considered a potential flight risk unless a official statement states otherwise?

Could be, not should be. Quit seing only what you want. As I stated in my very first post - we dont have all of the info and the article states they cant confirm the claims, which is why they are taking it up with Israel. The use of handcuffs, zipties and legcuffs are not illegal and are perfectly safe to use when used properly.

The mere presence of legcuffs means absolutely nothing and does not support the picture some are trying to portray.


Originally posted by Djack
You use this in a effort to enforce a argument? If this is your level of reasoning then you have some growing up to do my friend.

I am not the one using this to enforce a judgment - that would be you and a few others. I stated e didnt have all the info, something that the flip side to this argument is ignoring. They are so biased against Israel they are willing to beleive anything claimed without exercising due dilligence to confirm the facts and go from there.

So dont lecture me on reasoning or behaving in an adult manner. You sound rediculous when you do.



posted on Jun, 28 2012 @ 08:16 PM
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Originally posted by Kryties
Israel commits these atrocities as a whole whereas only minority groups of extremist Muslims go astray and against the wishes of the whole.

Support this claim please... What you just said was all of Israel, meaning all Israelis, commit atrocities where as its only a small group on the Palestinian side.

Now that you have once again changed your position, can you explain to us why? First it was all Israels fault, and now a small group of militant muslims are present. If its your position that all Israels are responsible, then by the same standards all Palestinians are responsible.


Originally posted by Kryties
Therein lies the BIG difference.

The only difference present is your flip flop in your argument and reasoning. Since you are now admitting militant groups have attacked Israel, does Israel not have a right to respond against them? Using your logic from a prior post about self defense.



Originally posted by Kryties
#, I was going to ignore you wasn't I? Consider it starts now.

Only because I have refuted your argument using logic reasoning and facts, 3 things we would never see from Hamas, Hezzbullah or the other militant groups who defile their own religion while hijacking the palestinian issue in order to justify a genocide of their own.



Originally posted by Kryties
PS congratulations on COMPLETELY missing the point of the Queen James joke. That made a whooshing sound as it went over your head.
edit on 28/6/2012 by Kryties because: (no reason given)

You didnt make the Queen James comment to me so I didnt miss any points.



posted on Jun, 28 2012 @ 08:17 PM
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Originally posted by Xcathdra

Originally posted by Kryties

Originally posted by buster2010
goyim


I liken the Jewish usage of the word "goyim" to the US use of the word "alien" when they are describing people who are not US citizens in their country. It's bloody rude to say the very least and is reflective of how they view the outside world beyond their borders.


And Infidel is what, a term of endearment?

Your ethics would riase eyebrows in the Court of Caligula.....
edit on 28-6-2012 by Xcathdra because: (no reason given)


Do you even know what the word Infidel means? And if you think it only pertains to Islam you are wrong because Christians use it also.

Christian definition of Infidel. a person who does not accept a particular faith, especially Christianity.

Islams definition of Infidel a person who does not accept the Islamic faith.

If you find the word Infidel as a bad insult then you need to toughen your skin up a little because it's too thin.



posted on Jun, 28 2012 @ 08:24 PM
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Originally posted by Kryties
reply to post by Xcathdra
 


I certainly don't believe the Israelis gave 'unprecedented access' to verify the claims. Of course they are going to hide their crimes from people investigating them.

Israels track record of genocide and violence is what makes me believe this claim, I realise its still a claim but I also realise that it will be a cold day in hell before Israel ever admits to their crimes.
edit on 28/6/2012 by Kryties because: (no reason given)


This pic pretty much says it all when it comes to Israel.




posted on Jun, 28 2012 @ 08:26 PM
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Originally posted by Djack
I think there is a big difference between some fundamentalist groups and military policies made by a government.

I'm sorry but the actions by Hamas are considered the same as military policies made by the government. Or is it your contention that Hamas is not the legitimate government of the Gaza strip? Prior to their election what would you consider them? What about Hezzbullah in Lebanon prior to their elevation to the government?



Originally posted by Kryties
You see you cannot point at the whole of palestine or the entire muslim community because of what fundamentalist groups from anywhere have done for whatever reason as per your example.

At no point have I ever laid the entire blame on Palestinians, nor have I stated Israel is right. This goes back to what I was referring to when people only see what they want.

In my very first post I stated we dont have all the info and we should wait until we do before passing judgement.



Originally posted by Kryties
You can however, very clearly, point to the israeli government and their military for what they are doing to palestinian children. Israeli government and their military is israel.

You sound just as rediculous as the others when making this argument. The facts dont support it either.



posted on Jun, 28 2012 @ 08:28 PM
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Originally posted by buster2010

Originally posted by Xcathdra

Originally posted by Kryties

Originally posted by buster2010
goyim


I liken the Jewish usage of the word "goyim" to the US use of the word "alien" when they are describing people who are not US citizens in their country. It's bloody rude to say the very least and is reflective of how they view the outside world beyond their borders.


And Infidel is what, a term of endearment?

Your ethics would riase eyebrows in the Court of Caligula.....
edit on 28-6-2012 by Xcathdra because: (no reason given)


Do you even know what the word Infidel means? And if you think it only pertains to Islam you are wrong because Christians use it also.

Christian definition of Infidel. a person who does not accept a particular faith, especially Christianity.

Islams definition of Infidel a person who does not accept the Islamic faith.

If you find the word Infidel as a bad insult then you need to toughen your skin up a little because it's too thin.


...And yet you choose to ignore the fact that Jesus says, "love the infidels", while Mohammad says "kill the infidels". Not that either side has entirely succeeded, but just because you define something with a negative connotation doesn't make it true.
edit on 6/28/2012 by DarkKnight21 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 28 2012 @ 08:28 PM
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/sorry , offtopic ranting
edit on 28-6-2012 by ZIPMATT because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 28 2012 @ 08:47 PM
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WTF! [color=grey]/offtopic

edit on 28-6-2012 by iIuminaIi because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 28 2012 @ 08:52 PM
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Originally posted by DarkKnight21

Originally posted by buster2010

Originally posted by Xcathdra

Originally posted by Kryties

Originally posted by buster2010
goyim


I liken the Jewish usage of the word "goyim" to the US use of the word "alien" when they are describing people who are not US citizens in their country. It's bloody rude to say the very least and is reflective of how they view the outside world beyond their borders.


And Infidel is what, a term of endearment?

Your ethics would riase eyebrows in the Court of Caligula.....
edit on 28-6-2012 by Xcathdra because: (no reason given)


Do you even know what the word Infidel means? And if you think it only pertains to Islam you are wrong because Christians use it also.

Christian definition of Infidel. a person who does not accept a particular faith, especially Christianity.

Islams definition of Infidel a person who does not accept the Islamic faith.

If you find the word Infidel as a bad insult then you need to toughen your skin up a little because it's too thin.


...And yet you choose to ignore the fact that Jesus says, "love the infidels", while Mohammad says "kill the infidels". Not that either side has entirely succeeded, but just because you define something with a negative connotation doesn't make it true.
edit on 6/28/2012 by DarkKnight21 because: (no reason given)


Seems like you forgot to add a few words like a lot of people who pick and choose verses always do. Islam only allows a follower to kill infidels if they are fighting you first to kill a person for not believing in Islam would go against the teaching of Muhammad.

verse 190, Surah 190 says:
"Fight in the way of Allah those who fight you but do not transgress. Indeed. Allah does not like transgressors."

There is also three times as much violence in the Bible than the Qur'an so the love the infidel is pretty much a lie huh?
edit on 28-6-2012 by buster2010 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 28 2012 @ 08:56 PM
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Anti-Zionist Orthodox Jewish Rabbi SPEECH !!


edit on 28-6-2012 by iIuminaIi because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 28 2012 @ 09:02 PM
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Originally posted by Xcathdra


Originally posted by Kryties
You see you cannot point at the whole of palestine or the entire muslim community because of what fundamentalist groups from anywhere have done for whatever reason as per your example.

At no point have I ever laid the entire blame on Palestinians, nor have I stated Israel is right. This goes back to what I was referring to when people only see what they want.



Originally posted by Kryties
You can however, very clearly, point to the israeli government and their military for what they are doing to palestinian children. Israeli government and their military is israel.

You sound just as rediculous as the others when making this argument. The facts dont support it either.


Whoa mate, stop the press. I never said these things you are quoting. You've mixed me up with someone else, although I'm buggered if I know how you managed that. In your zeal to accuse me of anything you can think of, now you are literally attributing whole quotes to me that I never typed.

My god man, are you completely mad?
edit on 28/6/2012 by Kryties because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 28 2012 @ 09:05 PM
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reply to post by buster2010
 


Huh, wonder what these passages mean then?

Quran (47:3-4) - "Those who reject Allah follow vanities, while those who believe follow the truth from their lord. Thus does Allah set forth form men their lessons by similitude. Therefore when you meet in battle those who disbelieve, then smite the necks until when you have overcome them, then make (them) prisoners,"

Quran (33:60-62) - "If the hypocrites, and those in whose hearts is a disease, and the alarmists in the city do not cease, We verily shall urge thee on against them, then they will be your neighbors in it but a little while. Accursed, they will be seized wherever found and slain with a (fierce) slaughter."

Quran (9:73) - "O Prophet! strive hard against the unbelievers and the hypocrites and be unyielding to them; and their abode is hell, and evil is the destination."

Bukhari (8:387) - Allah's Apostle said, "I have been ordered to fight the people till they say: 'None has the right to be worshipped but Allah'. And if they say so, pray like our prayers, face our Qibla and slaughter as we slaughter, then their blood and property will be sacred to us and we will not interfere with them except legally."





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