Supreme Court strikes down key parts of Arizona immigration law

Originally posted by OutKast Searcher
reply to post by JohnPhoenix

 

Ask any Cop anywhere. All Americans are required by Law to have proper identification on them at all times.

But Illegals don't?

What The F**k ?

No, they aren't.

If cops think that...then they are ignorant of the law.

About half the states have "stop and identify" laws...all that requires is that you give the officer your name and in some cases your address. You don't have to provide any "papers" at all...and you can't be charged with anything for simply not having "papers" on you.

If you are driving..you are required to have a valid drivers license...this includes "illegals" too.


I really wish people knew the law of their own country.

The problem with this is I have had Cops actually tell me this before. I have been told I could be arrested for failing to provide proper identification via a license or ID

You wanna tell the cop who told me that he didn't know the law? Good luck with that. How DARE YOU sir assume i dont know the law or need to know the law. When a cop is standing in front of you.. Law doesn't matter. It's the Cops Law that counts.

Think Hurricane Katrina. All those law abiding citizens who had their guns illegally stolen from them by Cops. Go ahead.. you tell them they can't take your gun because it's illegal. Not only will they take your gun, but they won't be very nice about it either. You may wind up in jail or the infirmary or both.

reply to post by hellbjorn012


No, I do not want open borders at this time. Ideally, if the US was in surplus and the job market were good...sure. What I want is for my fellow Americans to stop being so willfully allowing politics and media to make their decisions on what to believe and how to respond to every issue we face as a country. What I want is for my fellow Americans to be able to think critically and not react emotionally to rhetoric.

Is illegal immigration a problem?
Yes.

Is it as big of a problem as it is being made out to be?
No. Deportation numbers are at a higher percentage than ever before. Fewer people are trying to enter the US illegally than in quite a number of years.

Why do all our solutions to immigration and security have to amount to loss of freedoms for Americans? There's no other solutions? Really? We can't crack down on people who hire illegal immigrants? We can't be more thorough on checking backgrounds of people who apply for Visa's etc... before they are granted? Forgive me if I thought that we had a CIA and an FBI and a whole slew of immigration workers.

We don't need new laws we already have more than enough. It pains me to see this BS. That people are so eager and willing to give up the things that so few other countries had/have because our populace is so goddamn terrified/angry of everything. Why do we let our emotions overwhelm us so readily that we welcome loss of liberties?

reply to post by Wolf321


You can learn enough English to gain citizenship and then forget most of it. I certainly don't remember the French I took in high school.

Originally posted by macman
Really???!?!?!?!?!!!

Now that is too rich.

Not very difficult to determine that.
If, during a lawful stop, they admit...........They are deported.

I want to play. I will give you that one for free.

If, during a lawful stop, they have false ID, like the guy you used from the Legal Zoom website, and have Mexican IDs...............They are deported.

Where are they deported to?
Damn and that was going so well.

I kind of need clarity on this one.

It amazes me as to how many people in this thread alone would live in a Nazi like state solely for the purpose of controlling immigration PERHAPS.

Unbelievable

I think those who are in favor of the papiere bitte!? would just feel non affected by the color of their skin maybe?

Not claiming anyone is racist, but the facts are that white people are not in question. No Irish looking dude is going to "papered" for perhaps being Honduran in Arizona.

Originally posted by Blaine91555

I'll admit I'm biased as I had a family member murdered by an Illegal in a sanctuary city, who had been arrested three times before for attacking women and yet they refused to report him.

Don't need to be illegal for that. IMO few criminals are not repeat offenders. And few ever stick in prison the first couple times.

I am all for a Guest Worker Program and making it easy for law abiding people from any country to come here to work. Close the Border though.

I live on the southern border. I assure you plenty has been done to close it in the last few years. People who don't live here don't know what they're talking about. The newest is coming by water.

The northern border however - - - is very porous and mountainous - - - very hard to close.

Interesting poll on yahoos homepage

Should police have the right to ask about immigration status?

Yes, if it catches illegal immigrants.

77%

No, it's too often done irresponsibly.

23%

Thank you for voting.
269,434 votes

Supreme Court's pivotal ruling »

Originally posted by Kali74
Why do all our solutions to immigration and security have to amount to loss of freedoms for Americans? There's no other solutions? Really? We can't crack down on people who hire illegal immigrants? We can't be more thorough on checking backgrounds of people who apply for Visa's etc... before they are granted? Forgive me if I thought that we had a CIA and an FBI and a whole slew of immigration workers.

All our solutions? I, and many others, have made a slew of suggestions in posts scattered around ATS on methods and ways to reduce and combat illegal immigration. None are ever going to be in consideration because liberals take that any challenge to immigration is an assault on race, or that we should allow them in the US anyway. Conservative politicians wont want to address necessary changes because they like the divisiveness it creates. So we end up with what we have. States trying to simply enforce federal laws without encroaching on US citizen rights. It was a win-win for everyone but illegals, until this ruling.

That people are so eager and willing to give up the things that so few other countries had/have because our populace is so goddamn terrified/angry of everything. Why do we let our emotions overwhelm us so readily that we welcome loss of liberties?

If you were familiar with my posts and threads, you would know that there are few who are as ardent supporters of freedom, liberty and limited government as I. I don't see any loss of liberty in asking suspected illegals for identification. It is no different than the “stop and identify” laws that require people to produce identifications if they are being legally detained.

You can learn enough English to gain citizenship and then forget most of it. I certainly don't remember the French I took in high school.

I took four years of French in my time. Never got lower than a B. But even when I was in those classes, I could never carry on a random conversation with a fluent French speaker. I could only discuss the topics of that weeks lessons. I would never have been able to fill out paperwork, take tests on the history or government of France or speak with someone about my history and reasons for applying. Not to mention, I certainly wouldn't be able to function in a country where there were no signs, forms, news, entertainment or products in my native tongue.

A landlord would have to deal with local, state and federal government, including English only companies on a weekly basis. I don't buy that You can become a citizen of the US without such skills unless there was a catastrophic flaw in the process.

Originally posted by Kali74
reply to post by Wolf321

 

You can learn enough English to gain citizenship and then forget most of it. I certainly don't remember the French I took in high school.

are you in situations where you speak french everyday?

i'd expect people to predominately speak english when they live in this country

reply to post by Wolf321

So we end up with what we have. States trying to simply enforce federal laws without encroaching on US citizen rights. It was a win-win for everyone but illegals, until this ruling.

I wonder if legal citizens who fit the profile for illegal would agree with you. I'm guessing not. Again, to say that the Fed isn't tackling immigration is disingenuous as deportation numbers are up and suspected illegal entrances are down.

It is no different than the “stop and identify” laws that require people to produce identifications if they are being legally detained.

.

Sometimes that is a big if. Check out how well New York's Stop and Frisk is going and see if then you can still say it is okay.

A landlord would have to deal with local, state and federal government, including English only companies on a weekly basis.

There's a large Albanian community here and their son who speaks English pretty fluently handles all the legal stuff. There's all sets of circumstances, it isn't cut and dry.

Mitt Romney has finally come back with a statement - six HOURS after this ruling was made.

I'm wondering, if, as President, Mittens thinks he's going to get six MINUTES to respond to anything.

reply to post by Kali74


Just to add my suggestion on handling the problem...

Here is my simple comprehensive 'immigration reform' :

Enforcement
Deport ALL illegal aliens who do not self deport. Ban reentry for life.

End benefits
Deny ALL government services, benefits and aid to illegals: no public schooling, grants, welfare benefits, in-state tuitions, non-emergency medical care, etc

Anchor babies
Amend the constitutional definition of a citizen to:
persons born to two US citizens regardless of location, born to and claimed by one US citizen regardless of location before the age of 18, or someone naturalized through the immigration process. A US citizen can not hold dual citizenship with any other nation. Citizenship cannot be gained or surrendered more than once. Citizenship of a natural born citizen cannot be removed.

This would prevent anchor babies, foreign vacationers from timing their trips so they have an American citizen child, and conflicting associations with foreign nations.

Employers
Fined 20% of net worth or $250,000 fine (whichever is higher,) minimum 6 months up to 5 years in federal prison and permanent removal of any business licensing for businesses who knowingly hire illegal aliens. If the individual employer is a legal immigrant, removal of green card and immediate deportation upon release of prison sentence. This is a felony offence.

Border Security
Interim- Federal activation of state guard on the border, in open/rural federal areas, authorize lethal force. 24 hour surveillance drone use, increased. This is an invasion.
Long term- full length physical barrier with electronic monitoring and patrols. Increased manpower and decreased operational restrictions.

Other
No more interior federal applications, documents, signage etc in other than English.
Temporary works visas limited to 2 years time frames, and can be reapplied for no more than 3 times. Permanent Resident green cards renewable only once. Initial work visas can only be applied for from the country of nationality.

Pass a tax of 25% on remittances to other countries.

Finally, once enacted, offer an 18 month time frame for illegals to self-deport. The group that Obama granted nominal amnesty to recently is part of the group to self deport.

Originally posted by neo96

Originally posted by Kali74
reply to post by neo96

 

Fascism would be stopping people on the streets and asking to see papers.

yeah except is is totally acceptable for a cop to ask to see your papers(drivers licence) and everyone else who asks for identification.

so what the hell was the difference?

They can only ask you for a driver's license if you choose to operate a motor vehicle on a tax funded roadway.
That is kind of a big difference. They cannot ask me for my driver's license if I am walking, no matter how Mexican I look.

Originally posted by Kali74
Sometimes that is a big if. Check out how well New York's Stop and Frisk is going and see if then you can still say it is okay.

I don't know about the New York law, but have heard the name. I don't think anything good comes out of New York with regards to liberty and rights. However, if the law is simply if you are suspected of a crime and being legally detained, I wouldn't see a problem. Without probable cause, I am against it.

There's a large Albanian community here and their son who speaks English pretty fluently handles all the legal stuff. There's all sets of circumstances, it isn't cut and dry.

If that is the case, it speaks to the character of the person who became a citizen, the system and the other citizens in the local community. If you move to a country and want to actually be a citizen, you have some passion for the country you are in as well as its customs and practices and you should, and want to, assimilate into the community and country.

If Mexicans or most other illegals in Arizona were not brown in color, I wonder if Jan Brewer and her trusted birther sheriff would have all those of hispanic heritage wear a star????

I'll bet she would.................in the name of freedom of course!

Originally posted by Wolf321
reply to post by Kali74

 

Just to add my suggestion on handling the problem...

Here is my simple comprehensive 'immigration reform' :

Enforcement
Deport ALL illegal aliens who do not self deport. Ban reentry for life.

Prohibition doesn't work. We're not exactly letting these immigrants in legally now, what makes you think it would change? Would you shoot them on sight after a period of time?

End benefits
Deny ALL government services, benefits and aid to illegals: no public schooling, grants, welfare benefits, in-state tuitions, non-emergency medical care, etc

I know of very few illegal immigrants who even use non-emergency medical care.

Employers
Fined 20% of net worth or $250,000 fine (whichever is higher,) minimum 6 months up to 5 years in federal prison and permanent removal of any business licensing for businesses who knowingly hire illegal aliens. If the individual employer is a legal immigrant, removal of green card and immediate deportation upon release of prison sentence. This is a felony offence.

This would be even more damaging on the federal economy. Just imagine how many businesses would go out of business and how many MORE legal American born/bred people would be out of work.

Border Security
Interim- Federal activation of state guard on the border, in open/rural federal areas, authorize lethal force. 24 hour surveillance drone use, increased. This is an invasion.
Long term- full length physical barrier with electronic monitoring and patrols. Increased manpower and decreased operational restrictions.

Why not make the US a massive prison while you're at it. This sounds like it would intern the US, not the immigrants you speak against.

Other
No more interior federal applications, documents, signage etc in other than English.
Temporary works visas limited to 2 years time frames, and can be reapplied for no more than 3 times. Permanent Resident green cards renewable only once. Initial work visas can only be applied for from the country of nationality.

You'd be marginalizing large groups of people who are here legally. Our forefathers didn't give us a national language for a reason, and didn't state-sponsor a religion for a reason. The Amish, for one, would have large difficulty being able to function after these restrictions pass.

Pass a tax of 25% on remittances to other countries.

THIS doesn't sound so bad.

Finally, once enacted, offer an 18 month time frame for illegals to self-deport. The group that Obama granted nominal amnesty to recently is part of the group to self deport.

You should ask Morgan Spurlock if you could live in Mexico for 30 days and see if you still believe the same way, that is, if the Zetas don't behead you first. Can you really blame a group of people for wanting to get into a better country so close by when their home country's economy was destroyed by free trade agreements that the USA signed?

reply to post by Wolf321


Probable cause can be invented, that's what you aren't getting...the more authority you grant the more it can be abused. Look into it.

Enforcement Deport ALL illegal aliens who do not self deport. Ban reentry for life.

That is already the law and it is being enforced.

End benefits Deny ALL government services, benefits and aid to illegals: no public schooling, grants, welfare benefits, in-state tuitions, non-emergency medical care, etc

I need to do some research on that. I'll get back to you on it.

Anchor babies
Amend the constitutional definition of a citizen to: persons born to two US citizens regardless of location, born to and claimed by one US citizen regardless of location before the age of 18, or someone naturalized through the immigration process. A US citizen can not hold dual citizenship with any other nation. Citizenship cannot be gained or surrendered more than once. Citizenship of a natural born citizen cannot be removed.

No. The Constitution is just fine as is on Citizenship and don't you dare tell me that I can't be a dual citizen with any other nation that will allow me to and I damn well will revoke my Citizenship if I choose to. This nation can't behold me to it's laws and taxes if I choose otherwise. Anchor babies...I mention again, the price you pay for liberty.

Border Security Interim- Federal activation of state guard on the border, in open/rural federal areas, authorize lethal force. 24 hour surveillance drone use, increased. This is an invasion. Long term- full length physical barrier with electronic monitoring and patrols. Increased manpower and decreased operational restrictions.

Already being done isn't it? Opened a lovely floodgate there, now those damn drones can be everywhere. Physical barrier? What if we ever need to get out?

Other No more interior federal applications, documents, signage etc in other than English. Temporary works visas limited to 2 years time frames, and can be reapplied for no more than 3 times. Permanent Resident green cards renewable only once. Initial work visas can only be applied for from the country of nationality.

No. That whole paragraph is entirely ridiculous. Let me flee my oppressive country, I'll just go ask the nice dictator for an application for a visa or amnesty that's printed in English that I can't read...swell.

Originally posted by Anonymous404
Prohibition doesn't work. We're not exactly letting these immigrants in legally now, what makes you think it would change? Would you shoot them on sight after a period of time?

The prohibition would be on allowing future legal immigration of anyone caught in the country illegally. The other suggestions would act to keep them from coming here illegally.

I know of very few illegal immigrants who even use non-emergency medical care.

By non-emergency medical care, I mean you cannot go into an Emergency Room for something that isn't at that moment life threatening, without possessing insurance. This would apply to all. You could still go into an ER, but the facility and its employees would not have an obligation to tend to you until your situation became life threatening.

This would be even more damaging on the federal economy. Just imagine how many businesses would go out of business and how many MORE legal American born/bred people would be out of work.

You are suggesting that there are so many illegals employed knowingly that it would negatively impact the economy. I have no problem if a company goes under for hiring illegals knowingly. I don't think an employer would take that risk.

Why not make the US a massive prison while you're at it. This sounds like it would intern the US, not the immigrants you speak against.

How? Americans and legal immigrants still can come and go as they please, you just cannot get in without going through properly. Do you feel like a prisoner in your own home if you put up a fence?

You'd be marginalizing large groups of people who are here legally. Our forefathers didn't give us a national language for a reason, and didn't state-sponsor a religion for a reason. The Amish, for one, would have large difficulty being able to function after these restrictions pass.

Was the declaration of independence and constitution written in a language other than English for distribution to the people in the US? They didn't have to establish a language because they didn't anticipate the government having to waste dollars and resources catering to foreigners inside the nation.

The Amish speak and read English. How is that an issue? What am I missing?

You should ask Morgan Spurlock if you could live in Mexico for 30 days and see if you still believe the same way, that is, if the Zetas don't behead you first. Can you really blame a group of people for wanting to get into a better country so close by when their home country's economy was destroyed by free trade agreements that the USA signed?

I don't blame anyone for wanting to be here in the US. But I expect them to go through the legal process, if not they should accept the repercussions of being here illegally.

I agree that things like NAFTA (SPP, etc) are crap. That is another issue of which I don't support.

With all the illegal children that Obama just granted nominal amnesty to, when they go back to their hell-hole nations, hopefully they can use their experience and free education to take on the corrupt governments and policies to improve them enough so their people won't be bailing out like rats on a burning ship.

Originally posted by Kali74
Probable cause can be invented, that's what you aren't getting...the more authority you grant the more it can be abused. Look into it.

If it is fabricated then that is corruption at that level or individual. That is not an issue with the law.

That is already the law and it is being enforced.

Really?

Girl Outs Mother's Citizenship Status During First Lady's School Visit
California College Offers Scholarship to Illegal Immigrants
US to stop deporting and grant work permits to younger illegal immigrants

Seems like the US has known of many illegals and not been deporting them. That doesn't seem like enforcement.

No. The Constitution is just fine as is on Citizenship and don't you dare tell me that I can't be a dual citizen with any other nation that will allow me to and I damn well will revoke my Citizenship if I choose to. This nation can't behold me to it's laws and taxes if I choose otherwise. Anchor babies...I mention again, the price you pay for liberty.

Yeah, the Constitution is just fine on the issue of citizenship. That's why we don't have any issues with adults sneaking in or coming here just to have citizen children. We don't have an over taxed welfare system because of this at all. [/sarcasm]

A person shouldn't be able to have dual citizenship. It's gaming the system.

Already being done isn't it? Opened a lovely floodgate there, now those damn drones can be everywhere. Physical barrier? What if we ever need to get out?

Drones on the border, looking at the border. It's pretty restrictive.

If my neighbor won't keep his dog off my property I put up a fence. I don't feel trapped because it's my fence.

No. That whole paragraph is entirely ridiculous. Let me flee my oppressive country, I'll just go ask the nice dictator for an application for a visa or amnesty that's printed in English that I can't read...swell.

Visas are external to the nation, not internal. Not applicable here, because you don't apply for a visa within the US.

Amnesty? I think you mean asylum. You make a valid point on that. I will concede that in the case of asylum from a deemed oppressive regime (i.e. North Korea), we might make that form in various languages. Asylum would be conditional upon future citizenship testing.

As soon as this came down Obama made sure in no uncertain terms that he was shutting down any cooperation with Arizona. Some diplomat... He couldn't ratchet down the rhetoric a bit and start a process of better cooperation. He had to be an in your face thug. He is nothing more than a Gangster.He is nicer to our enemies than our own citizens.

He has now emboldened the drug cartels to run all over Arizona and Texas and when they get caught they can scream illegal stop "due to my skin color" and the DOJ will let them go. The problem with that is people are getting fed up. There will be bloodshed and maybe even a border war with Mexico on one side and Arizona and Texas on the other. When the Feds try and step in to stop it, it may be too late and people may turn their guns on the DOJ too. Then you will have other states supporting the insurrection either directly or indirectly.

The wild card at that point will be the military but I highly doubt they will step in. It will be an internal domestic situation where States will be calling the shots. No way the Military shoots its own and they hate Holder and Obama. At that point Treason will be on the table if momentum take hold. We know what happens to those arrested for Treason in times of Civil War. Just look at the Arab spring Obama is so proud of..

How did Colonel Gaddafi go?