Have you ever made someone question their beliefs via religious debate?

Originally posted by OpinionatedB
Most people hold very strong beliefs, and atheists are no exeption. Just as you will not be convincing anyone but an ignorant religious person of atheism, nor will you be convincing any atheist of religion. It is not because of any truths either, it is because people strongly hold whatever beliefs they have, and argument will not sway a person by the time they reach full adulthood.

Creationists like to equate atheism and evolution, but that's just not valid. One can be religious and still at the same time accept facts like evolution. Only fundamentalist religious types refuse reality and fact.

It is hard to explain a relationship with God, finding words to define things that cannot easily be explained with words is always a challenge, but I'll try. I think religion and spirituality are two very different things often portrayed as the same thing. I was raised Lutheran up until I was 19-20. Mom always made sure we went to church every Sunday, I was an alcolyte, an usher, took catechism like a good Lutheran boy. It was not until I moved out the house and stopped going to church that I "found" God so to speak. All it takes is a love of the outdoors and making your mind be quiet of all the things this life tells us we should worry about (work, money, bills, spouses, etc etc.) I realized that many of the religous concepts that are ascribed to God were in fact men talking for him. God really does'nt "talk" back so to speak like we do to one another. Ever pass by someone broke down on a highway and that little voice (which most of us tend to ignore) tells you to stop and help? I think that little voice is God "talking" to us. I make sure that I find something to be thankful for every day. and I make sure that I look inside myself when I talk to God if that makes any sense because preachers always had me thinking that God is external authority figure that can never be pleased, and no matter what I do I will always be a miserable sinner. But the God that I've come to know could never be like that because God is Love, and love is a much more powerful emotion than any petty negative human traits so often associated with God. I honestly believe that seeking God out through introspection is the one true spiritual path to "find" him. Maybe thats why western religions scoff at the eastern religions that teach meditation. Meditation is the art of opening your eyes and seeing Gods hand in all things. After reading my post I sound pretty confusing I know. If there is anything that I can discuss in more detail with you I would be happy to. I just know that I've survived too many incidents in my life when I should have died to know that the hand of God has played a major part in my life. God does exist, he created me exactly how he wanted me to be, moles, warts, scars and all. and he has some kind of purpose for me here. When I talk to him I always ask for him to reveal what my job here is, and I know in my heart no matter what the preachers say that the day I take my last breath I will be with God, because I want to be so bad he can never turn me away. OK, I'll stop now because I just will probably sound more confusing, but I guess thats the best I can do to explain how and why I feel God.

Originally posted by FlyersFan
Evolution - where one species becomes another - is just a theory.

What do you mean by "just a theory". You mean, it's just a coherent group of tested general propositions, commonly regarded as correct, that can be used as principles of explanation and prediction for a class of phenomena? I don't think mankind has ever managed to gather as much support for any theory as for evolution. There's literally not a single objective observation that contradicts it.

Theory > Law > Hypothesis > Idea

Christian creationism is just a bad idea. It can't be tested. Nothing supports it. Everything contradicts it.

Originally posted by john_bmth
How many times must it be pointed out that a scientific theory is supported by a large body of evidence, not some wild guess? Is it because creationists are ignorant or intellectually dishonest?

1 - I am not a creationist .. so if you were attempting to insult me .. epic fail.

2 - Go ahead and show everyone how the THEORY of evolution is more than just a theory. Show the evidence that one species evolves into another. Don't post natural selection .. we all know that's been proven. Post EVOLUTION. Give us the missing links on animals evolving into animals of a different species.

3 - Theories are guesses based on incomplete evidence. Creationist theory .. evolutionary theory .. 'seeding' theory ... all based on incomplete evidence. If there was complete evidence for any one of them, then there would be no serious discussion needed.

4 - The continued myopic rants of people are amazing .... people saying the way humanity got here can ONLY be evolution, or it can ONLY be creation by a higher being, or it can ONLY be 'seeding' .... :shk: SMALL MINDS.

5 - There is a segment of those who strongly support evolutionary theory who remind me of Christian fundamentalists with their creationism theory. They complain about the creationists religious way of hanging onto their theory .. but those evolutionists hang on to their theory in the same manner. Both sides say there is over whelming evidence ... both sides refuse to see that they could be wrong because neither side has the full picture of what happened. And neither side will have it in this lifetime.

reply to post by Cancerwarrior


Is it possible you just branding the name "God" to the wonders of nature?

A beautiful scenery bring out calm, peaceful, happy emotions but i would never thinking "wow, god is amazing".

Seeing someone off the road with a broken vehicle is also human compassion, nothing to do with God.

Not trying to be mean or anything, im just doubting it.


Im all for meditation, even tho i'm an Atheist i fond of meditation, Yoga..etc all these open you eyes and especially mind to a level of clear thinking, its freedom for your mind.

Originally posted by rhinoceros
I don't think mankind has ever managed to gather as much support for any theory as for evolution. There's literally not a single objective observation that contradicts it.

There is nothing conclusive to close the case on it and make it a fact.
Therefore ... it's a THEORY. One of many. That's just the way it is.

Originally posted by acmpnsfal
reply to post by Archangelelijah

 

Thats not true at all there is liquid water other places in our solar system more specifically on Jupiter's moon Europa. Also, there have been discoveries of liquid water around stars and on other planets. I'll link a few examples below.

Water on Extrasolar Planets
Water Filled Galaxy
Water on Jupiter's moon Europa


It depends on the fundermentals of the chemical make up of the planet or moon.

Earths make up is ideal for all species due to this fact of atmospheric conditions in magnetism and pressure. Other areas in space might contain water due to different conditions within the atmosphere. These conditions include pressure and chemical makeup forcing a moon or planet to become warmer while further away from the Sun than Earth.

edit on 13-6-2012 by acmpnsfal because: (no reason given)

reply to post by FlyersFan


Stop lying to yourself and others. Define for us the scientific definition of the term "theory".

Originally posted by FlyersFan
2 - Go ahead and show everyone how the THEORY of evolution is more than just a theory. Show the evidence that one species evolves into another. Don't post natural selection .. we all know that's been proven. Post EVOLUTION. Give us the missing links on animals evolving into animals of a different species.

There's a good fossil record from lama-like land animal to whales. There's a good fossil record for ape-like to human. These are but two examples out of 1000s. Then there's the field of genetics, ancient reduced bacteria inside our cells, and a mountain of other evidence. It's all out there. Just look for it.

Originally posted by FlyersFan
3 - Theories are guesses based on incomplete evidence. Creationist theory .. evolutionary theory .. 'seeding' theory ... all based on incomplete evidence. If there was complete evidence for any one of them, then there would be no serious discussion needed.

That's not a valid definition of a theory. I, however, already provided one. There is no serious discussion about the validity of modern synthesis, in the scientific community, among people who have studied it, there's no disagreement over the general process, just some particular details that laymen do not understand. It's mainly fundamentalist Christians who think that discussion is needed.

reply to post by OpinionatedB

Just as you will not be convincing anyone but an ignorant religious person of atheism, nor will you be convincing any atheist of religion.

Why is the religious person ignorant and the atheist is not?

Just a few

And you know there are many scientist and educators that believe in a higher power.

www.awakeandamazed.com...

Have I changed any minds, I don't attempt to , but through conversations, yes I have changed a few.

Originally posted by FlyersFan
There is nothing conclusive to close the case on it and make it a fact.
Therefore ... it's a THEORY. One of many. That's just the way it is.

Yes there is. The fossil record and the entire field of genetics as well the mountain of other evidence.

What are these other theories for the diversity of life? Keep in mind the actual definition of a theory. Dubya used this creationist tactic too. Oh no, Geneva convention rules don't apply, because these are not enemy soldiers but enemy combatants. Oh no, creationism is not just a silly idea but a theory just like evolution because the bible.

Originally posted by luciddream
reply to post by Cancerwarrior

 

Is it possible you just branding the name "God" to the wonders of nature?

Well, to me they are one and the same. Sitting in my boat with a fishing rod in my hand watching the plants, birds, animals, fish, seeing the balance and harmony in all things makes me think that there is an architect, all this did not just randomly happen.

Maybe someone broke down is not the best example, but there are times when that "little voice" tells me to do something that I would not normally do and looking back after I did it, realized that I was "meant" to do it. Does that make any sense at all?

Many people seem to think that God is punishing them when something bad happens in their life. A year ago I was diagnosed with stage 4 metastatic melanoma with tumors in my brain, lungs, ethmoid and sphenoid sinuses. as well as many subcutaneous tumors in my head, neck, shoulders, abdomen. I was eat up with cancer so to speak. That is a very dire and not very hopeful diagnosis. At first, i thought, why me? what the hell did I do? Its a very "bad" thing to happen to anyone for sure. But there were so many good things that came out of it. I realized that I have alot of people that love me first of all. I recieved many acts of kindness from complete strangers. ( I've always been a glass half empty type person) I found my biological mother after 30 years of looking. Theres so many wonderful things that have happened to me, all because of this "bad" thing. So I can't really say that I'm anything but thankful that I was diagnosed with cancer! Its hard for me to explain my spirituality. But things like this tell me that something/someone/God is looking out for me. This life is just a ride you know? I hope I've helped you maybe see a little bit from my perspective.

Originally posted by borntowatch

Originally posted by satron
I made someone cry before. Wasn't trying to, but I can't put up with stupid.

Hence why I try stay out of arguments with your kind.

And what kind am I?

reply to post by Stormdancer777


The amount of scientist who DOESN'T believe is much higher.. 80%+ does not believe. Its like working in a peanut factory when you are allergic to peanuts.

There are Ignorant atheist but Ignorant religious far out weighs... you can pull a random religious and a random Atheist, i bet the Atheist would know more about ALL the religion and the religious might only know about his/her own.

Now, this might not be the case for all but it is for very high percentage.

reply to post by Cancerwarrior

It is hard to explain a relationship with God

Exactly,
Patmore said, the spirituality of mystic is as incommunicable experience to those who have not experienced it as the odor of a flower is to those who have never smelt one; it is the supreme adventure of the soul.

Why would one not want the experience, I do not know, I want to experience everything this life has to offer and spirituality is on the top of the list of my greatest joys and comforts.

reply to post by luciddream


I agree with that, I think I am very rare in that I know the rational arguments and explainations of why I happen to be religious, whereas an atheist generally knows why he is such. Atheism in my opinion however, is very similar to religion because it is a belief system, you must have faith in order to be an atheist, the same as you must have faith in order to be religious, because there is not absolute proof for either one.

Ok, I'll bite... HA HA HA

Let’s see, first yes, I have changed someone’s mind about religion.... However, you might provide much info to a person but you never know when they will "awaken". For example, my mother, who is a born again Southern Baptist started to blindly believe in God about 10 years ago after she joined a church in Moneta, VA. While I strongly disagree there is a "God". Religion is just borne out of ignorance of not knowing. The Bible is often the best weapon against Christianity.

About 3 weeks ago she confided in me that she was depressed and scared. I asked why and she said that she had read this 5-part article on www.raptureready.com by a Donna Wasson titled, The Matrix”. The article had all of the things I have been saying about the NWO, 911 and other things I have been telling my mom for 10 or more years. Her mind was open but she could not deal with the truth so she shut it off. I have to poke at her since last year she was coming home from Bible study talking about Mormons and Jehovah Witnesses as if they were nothing more than a garbage cult. So, I keep asking her how she can even think about voting for Romney......

I have witnessed a paranormal event and I will not attribute to a "Godly" event because I do not know.

Originally posted by OpinionatedB
reply to post by luciddream

 

I agree with that, I think I am very rare in that I know the rational arguments and explainations of why I happen to be religious, whereas an atheist generally knows why he is such. Atheism in my opinion however, is very similar to religion because it is a belief system, you must have faith in order to be an atheist, the same as you must have faith in order to be religious, because there is not absolute proof for either one.

I would not say Atheism is a faith, it is lack of faith... they are called atheist because they don't have faith.

reply to post by luciddream

you can pull a random religious and a random Atheist, i bet the Atheist would know more about ALL the religion and the religious might only know about his/her own.

OH I know that to be true even atheist know more about the Bible than most Christians, I spent a lot of time in atheist chat rooms.

I took a personally journey through all religions as far back in time as I could go, practiced and became involved in more than a few.

But I think that spirituality opens the mind to greater revelations in philosophy and science, I do not believe spirituality and science are mutually exclusive,

I have come up with some of my designs through meditation. I believe even an atheist may make contact with the divine unaware.

I keep posting this Credo because it sums it up

The most beautiful and deepest experience a man can have is the sense of the mysterious. It is the underlying principle of religion as well as of all serious endeavour in art and science. He who never had this experience seems to me, if not dead, then at least blind. To sense that behind anything that can be experienced there is a something that our minds cannot grasp, whose beauty and sublimity reaches us only indirectly: this is religiousness. In this sense I am religious. To me it suffices to wonder at these secrets and to attempt humbly to grasp with my mind a mere image of the lofty structure of all there is."

Einstein's credo

reply to post by luciddream


yet, it is based on faith (in science) that they lack faith (in a creator)



see the dilema?