God to Jesus. I just condemned the human race. Now go die to save them.

reply to post by Greatest I am


Thank you for you OP, GreatestIam. I agree with you assessment of the immorality of Christianity. I have a basic rule of GOD. If it walked on Earth, if it spoke and ate and required sustenance through rituals, performed acts in present time, such as creating stuff and writing laws while communing with humans, it ISN'T GOD.

The god of the OT is an impostor, a despicable despot. My god doesn't have human emotions such as jealousy, vengeance or mercy. My GOD is an immutable force of the universe. It is everything that is, was and will be, as well as what wasn't, isn't and never will be.

The god of the OT had contemporary rivals, and was limited in his territorial reign. He used feeble humans to wage wars against these others, proffering human and animal blood sacrifice and even asking his faithful to murder their own loved ones. All these so called gods have now left us, probably banished by higher powers because of their mischief.

It is no wonder that superstitious die hards would revel in another "human" blood sacrifice, to top all blood sacrifice. Like Cain and Able's struggle for favor, Christians claim "our offering is better than yours, and you can just go to hell!"

They promote separation and bigotry, while espousing one truth and righteousness and denying the pre-encoded inner path to enlightenment, placed in our core by the One True GOD! Thus, they promote the very evil they pretend to despise and lead their followers into the hell that they themselves have created.

I reject the "solar god" imposition that the Christian Jesus represents. I reject the virgin birth, the crucifixion death and resurrection of Jesus, the blood sacrifice to a hungry god, ready to condemn and consume his own creation in a fiery furnace of hell. There is no representation of love or mercy in this story, IMO.

A much healthier moral view than those who swallow man made dogma and have their Gods in a pissing contest.

Thanks for this.

Regards
DL

Originally posted by lonewolf19792000

Originally posted by b3l13v3

Originally posted by KaelemJames
The Son is in the Father, and The Father is in The Son. He sacrificed Himself in flesh, for us. By doing that He has set us free from that of the flesh and gave us eternal life. Now to accept that and grow in faith.

Gah.

LDKmfslkfmlkmslfmlkmflskdmflksdfm

The kingdom of god is not in ONE MAN, it is in ALL MEN.

Paraphrased from your BIBLE.

Therefore I have faith in no one but myself and everything and everyone else, because I am the universe, WE are the universe.

Religion sure has been digging at me today....

edit on 1-6-2012 by b3l13v3 because: (no reason given)

Actually you're wrong. The Kingdom of God was at hand, but only a minority of the jews accepted Yeshua so his physical Kingdom was postponed. Jacob's Trouble will rectify that mistake and make them ready for him this next go around. The second covenant was established only with those who chose to believe in him. Context is a wonderful thing.

Hebrews 8; 7

7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second.

Are you saying that God screwed up and also ignores his own oath and changed his mind?

Psalm 89 ;34 My covenant I will not break,
Nor alter the word that has gone out of My lips.

Regards
DL

Originally posted by Awen24
There's a lot that's been said in this thread already, but I think the crux of the question surrounds the character of God.

You're assuming that God chose to condemn mankind because it suited him to do so. This isn't accurate.
God condemned sin in mankind because His holy character demanded that it must be so. The Bible states that "though we are faithless, He will remain faithful, for He cannot disown Himself". That simple sentence reveals a lot about God and His character. The one thing that God is bound by is His Own nature. He will not compromise Himself, not for you, not for me, not even for His own sake.

So... when mankind sinned and "the fall" occurred, God judged... not because it suited him to do so, but because His righteousness, His holiness, and His justice demanded that it must be so.

Likewise, God's character as good, and holy, and pure, His character as a redeemer (remember, Job said "I know that my redeemer lives", thousands of years before Christ), demanded that He Himself must do what sinful man could not. This is why the Bible says that "by this, we know love: that Jesus laid down His life for us", "for while we were still sinners, Christ died for us".

Pause on that. While we were STILL sinners. God didn't wait for mankind to make desperate attempts at reconciliation (this, by note, is exactly what religion is - man's desperate attempt to reach God), but instead, provided Christ, "the lamb who was slain before the foundation of the world".

"Greater love has no man than this: that he lay down His life for His friends."

God having to condemn has no relavance to his choice of having his own son murdered.
He can condemn all he wants. I give you this point.
It is his immoral choice of having his son murdered that is at issue.

If harm/care of children is not God's first rule of morality then what is it.

God did not have to make his insane choice. He could have found some moral way just as he did for those who went to heaven before the murder of Jesus.

Regards
DL

Originally posted by newcovenant
reply to post by Greatest I am

 

Is that really what happened?
Maybe the human race condemned themselves.

I remember it was explained that the Creator could not figure why man kept sinning and why he couldn't seem to follow a few simple instructions? He was at wits end and about to destroy man - his creation - like a bad piece of artwork the artist decides he doesn't like - and doesn't want it laying around with HIS name on it.
Suddenly someone I forget who said that man was different from God in his inner being and someone said to God something like "If you were human you'd know how hard it is NOT to sin" then you would understand and God said OK. Let's see how hard it is. God came as Jesus just to see what it was like being a man instead of a God. Die to save them is sort of a misunderstanding. He came to save us. Died trying.

How can God make man without knowing all there is to know about man?
You just killed the omnimax bible God.

Regards
DL

Originally posted by ntech
reply to post by Greatest I am

 

Your entire premise is incorrect. He is actually bound by an agreement that would prevent that now.

Then has nothing to do with now. I am not questioning now but then.

Thanks for trying to deflect.

Is the first rule of morality harm/care of children and did God ignore morality?

If that is not his first moral rule then what is?

Regards
DL

Originally posted by smithjustinb
"The Fall" was a result of our own actions. God also said, "Do not put your hand on the stove, otherwise you will be burned."

Now, its not that God saw you put your hand on the stove and then condemned your hand to burn, its just that the stove was hot. The tree of knowledge of good and evil had its own consequences built into it just like the stove has consequences built into it for those who wish to touch it.

God never condemned us. God actually tried to help us refrain from condemning ourselves.

If my mom tells me not to put my hand on the stove and I do it anyway, is it her fault I did? I mean, sure she brought me into this world, so I guess in an extremely indirect way it is, but I mean come on. Seriously? I have free will.

First. Man cannot condemn himself. Only God has that power.

So if your mother takes her responsibility for your actions as you indicate she should, then why would you use a different standard for God and his children?
Are your parents more responsible than God?

As to your stove analogy, did your mother put a supernatural entity beside you to tempt you?
Remember that God gave Satan the power to deceive everyone.

Not as simplistic a question as you are trying to make it is it?

As to the fall. That is not at issue.

It is God's insanity of deciding to murder his son to reverse it that is.
He had many other options. Right?

Regards
DL

Originally posted by smithjustinb
reply to post by newcovenant

 

We sin because we are relatively powerful and disproportionally irresponsible. The saying, "With great power comes great responsibility" is meaningless to us. So we pervert our superior staus by using it to control. God, who is also superior, is different than us because God gave us free will.

Being human is hard. It's hard to be superior and not use your power for evil.

Christians are always trying to absolve God of moral culpability in the fall by whipping out their favorite "free will!", or “ it’s all man’s fault”.

That is "God gave us free will and it was our free willed choices that caused our fall. Hence God is not blameworthy."

But this simply avoids God's culpability as the author of Human Nature. Free will is only the ability to choose. It is not an explanation why anyone would want to choose "A" or "B" (bad or good action). An explanation for why Eve would even have the nature of "being vulnerable to being easily swayed by a serpent" and "desiring to eat a forbidden fruit" must lie in the nature God gave Eve in the first place. Hence God is culpable for deliberately making humans with a nature-inclined-to-fall, and "free will" means nothing as a response to this problem.

If all sin by nature then, the sin nature is dominant. If not, we would have at least some who would not sin.

Regards
DL

Originally posted by Greatest I am

Originally posted by lonewolf19792000

Originally posted by b3l13v3

Originally posted by KaelemJames
The Son is in the Father, and The Father is in The Son. He sacrificed Himself in flesh, for us. By doing that He has set us free from that of the flesh and gave us eternal life. Now to accept that and grow in faith.

Gah.

LDKmfslkfmlkmslfmlkmflskdmflksdfm

The kingdom of god is not in ONE MAN, it is in ALL MEN.

Paraphrased from your BIBLE.

Therefore I have faith in no one but myself and everything and everyone else, because I am the universe, WE are the universe.

Religion sure has been digging at me today....

edit on 1-6-2012 by b3l13v3 because: (no reason given)

Actually you're wrong. The Kingdom of God was at hand, but only a minority of the jews accepted Yeshua so his physical Kingdom was postponed. Jacob's Trouble will rectify that mistake and make them ready for him this next go around. The second covenant was established only with those who chose to believe in him. Context is a wonderful thing.

Hebrews 8; 7

7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second.

Are you saying that God screwed up and also ignores his own oath and changed his mind?

Psalm 89 ;34 My covenant I will not break,
Nor alter the word that has gone out of My lips.

Regards
DL

No he didn't screw his covenants up he kept them all as he said he would. It's the human element that always failed. Which is why he made the second covenant, because it was one that humanity couldn't possibly screw up except we found a way to even screw that one up.

Funny how you twist the word and then try to make it look like i'm the one doing it. Reminds me alot of Satan. I think Sad_eyed_lady could be right about you.

reply to post by windword

The god of the OT is an impostor, a despicable despot. My god doesn't have human emotions such as jealousy, vengeance or mercy. My GOD is an immutable force of the universe. It is everything that is, was and will be, as well as what wasn't, isn't and never will be.

So you think you know the unknowable then? I think you don't know half of what you think you do. What did Jesus say? What did he tell Philip and Thomas? Did Jesus ever get angry or do you think he was a pussy? Did he kick over the tables in the temple and whip the money lenders and money changers? Did he condemn the pharisses for calling the Holy Spirit a demon? Did he begin to preach in parables so they (the pharisees) couldn't gain understanding and be saved? When he returns in Revelation does he say "lets all hold hands and sing Kumbayah?"

You don't know the least bit about God. Take your head out of these forums and study the word more and maybe someday you will know more about God.

Your god is something else, probably Eros or some other Mystery Babylon god.

Click here for more information.

reply to post by Greatest I am

You are as big a looser as your God. Satan indeed. Care to throw any more of your fantasy characters at me?

Umad brah?

Hate me, i love your hatred.

Pile my riches up in heaven.

While you're at it, do some growing up your name calling reminds me of a child throwing a tantrum.

Originally posted by lonewolf19792000
reply to post by windword

 

The god of the OT is an impostor, a despicable despot. My god doesn't have human emotions such as jealousy, vengeance or mercy. My GOD is an immutable force of the universe. It is everything that is, was and will be, as well as what wasn't, isn't and never will be.

So you think you know the unknowable then? I think you don't know half of what you think you do.

I think I have a better idea of God than you do. Your god reveals his insecurities at every turn in your Bible. He is a pitiful failure.

What did Jesus say? What did he tell Philip and Thomas? Did Jesus ever get angry or do you think he was a pussy? Did he kick over the tables in the temple and whip the money lenders and money changers? Did he condemn the pharisses for calling the Holy Spirit a demon? Did he begin to preach in parables so they (the pharisees) couldn't gain understanding and be saved? When he returns in Revelation does he say "lets all hold hands and sing Kumbayah?"

Who cares whether or not Jesus got angry? What does that have to do with a god that requires human sacrifice of an innocent person to purchase your sin and pay for your salvation? The True God isn't separate from creation, and doesn't deceive or harden the hearts of some, while showing favor to others.

Jesus isn't God and Revelation is a continual process, an allegory. Don't take it literally. It's bad mojo to fantasize and visualize blood baths and revel in the pain, suffering and destruction of man. It's really quite Satanic! I think it's sad that you are so deceived as to put your faith in such negative hope.

You don't know the least bit about God. Take your head out of these forums and study the word more and maybe someday you will know more about God.

You are being deceived by the very thing that you hate and fear. You should stop proselytizing and take the log out of your own eye, before judging other people's relationships with the divine.

Typical Christian! I have studied the Bible more than enough, thank you. I think I see some smoutz on your halo.

Your god is something else, probably Eros or some other Mystery Babylon god.

Oh! I see! Your god is better than mine! My God IS something other that your jealous, murderous and vengeful projection. That's for sure!

You are acting just like Cain, jealous that your offering is not acceptable to the True God. You lash out at others, who find the way without relying on murder. The way to enlightenment/heaven doesn't come from others doing the work for you, or, sacrificing their life for you.

You don't need to read the Bible to find the way, the Bible is just another a distraction.

Your god is an impostor. You are being lied to and you are being deceived. You are trapped in a very small, silly box.

reply to post by Greatest I am

You are as big a looser as your God. Satan indeed. Care to throw any more of your fantasy characters at me?

??
You're calling him a loser, yet you can't even spell it correctly?
That's classy.

Did your God make the human race?
If so, who or what was the model for our range of emotions?
The sun?
Water?

God as an immutable force, huh?
Yet He is dependable and faithful.
His nature, attributes, purpose and essence are immutable.

But He identified himself to mankind as "I AM".....as in continuing, progressing and evolving, in a constant state of being and becoming.
Thus, God as an immutable force refers to the essence or attributes of God, and not to His operations in creation and providence, only in so far as these are always in harmony with the immutability of the divine nature.

reply to post by windword

Oh! I see! Your god is better than mine! My God IS something other that your jealous, murderous and vengeful projection. That's for sure!

You are acting just like Cain, jealous that your offering is not acceptable to the True God. You lash out at others, who find the way without relying on murder. The way to enlightenment/heaven doesn't come from others doing the work for you, or, sacrificing their life for you.

You don't need to read the Bible to find the way, the Bible is just another a distraction.

Your god is an impostor. You are being lied to and you are being deceived. You are trapped in a very small, silly box.

Yes the bible is clearly a distraction, which is why i know who God is and you do not, because he is in Christ and we have the scriptures to tell us what Christ is like and who he is. The Name Above All Names, the Melchizidek, the One whereby which every knee shall bow and every tongue confess, of the living and the dead that he is the Lord, He who was and is and is to come, the Alpha and Omega, the Ancient of Days.

I am not being lied to, my gift is of discernment and our Creator is Jesus, it was always him from the very beginning and i pity you because you were not given revelation to see him. It would seem my dear, that you are the one trapped in the silly little box.

Originally posted by lonewolf19792000
reply to post by windword

 

Oh! I see! Your god is better than mine! My God IS something other that your jealous, murderous and vengeful projection. That's for sure!

You are acting just like Cain, jealous that your offering is not acceptable to the True God. You lash out at others, who find the way without relying on murder. The way to enlightenment/heaven doesn't come from others doing the work for you, or, sacrificing their life for you.

You don't need to read the Bible to find the way, the Bible is just another a distraction.

Your god is an impostor. You are being lied to and you are being deceived. You are trapped in a very small, silly box.

Yes the bible is clearly a distraction, which is why i know who God is and you do not, because he is in Christ and we have the scriptures to tell us what Christ is like and who he is. The Name Above All Names, the Melchizidek, the One whereby which every knee shall bow and every tongue confess, of the living and the dead that he is the Lord, He who was and is and is to come, the Alpha and Omega, the Ancient of Days.

Blah, blah, blah blah! Same old Christian rhetoric that I heard for some 50 years! You're brainwashed and just spouting off the same old stuff. You can't even put a sentence together without quoting some YouTube preacher or some scripture. Way to use your god given critical thinking skills!

I am not being lied to, my gift is of discernment and our Creator is Jesus, it was always him from the very beginning and i pity you because you were not given revelation to see him. It would seem my dear, that you are the one trapped in the silly little box.

Oh, you're gifted! I should have known you'd say that! Don't quit your day job!

All things emanate from the source, the one True GOD, including Jesus. If you want to morph that guy from the OT and Jesus together, go for it. In so doing, however, you do a great disservice to your savior, labeling him as a demiurge.

Even Jesus knew that Jehovah wasn't god! Jehovah, like Jesus, was a resident of the universe, not the creator.

Originally posted by Greatest I am

Christians are always trying to absolve God of moral culpability in the fall by whipping out their favorite "free will!", or “ it’s all man’s fault”.

That is "God gave us free will and it was our free willed choices that caused our fall. Hence God is not blameworthy."

But this simply avoids God's culpability as the author of Human Nature. Free will is only the ability to choose. It is not an explanation why anyone would want to choose "A" or "B" (bad or good action). An explanation for why Eve would even have the nature of "being vulnerable to being easily swayed by a serpent" and "desiring to eat a forbidden fruit" must lie in the nature God gave Eve in the first place. Hence God is culpable for deliberately making humans with a nature-inclined-to-fall, and "free will" means nothing as a response to this problem.

If all sin by nature then, the sin nature is dominant. If not, we would have at least some who would not sin.

Regards
DL

if God had made all of us carbon copies of Himself, what would be the point? It would be like being surrounded by creepy robots that never discovered or learned anything, just being surrounded by yourself with little "yous" all the time. I would totally kick myself's ass on a regular basis just for driving me up the wall.

So God, in His infinite wisdom, created us in His "image", which gave us the capability to work towards being like Him, but something that had to be perpetually maintained.

I delight in observing my children learn and discover, and I belive God does the same. I do not delight in my children learning hard lessons through mistakes, but I must allow them to do so because sometimes it may be necessary, and most of the times, because they earned that lesson through hardship and personal loss, it is a lesson that improves upon their character.

I am not their dictator, I am their mother. Same thing with God. God did not create us with a "nature-inclined-to-fall", He created us with a nature inclined to His image. I do not set my children up for failure, but I do not keep them from certain hardships so that they have the opportunity to grow into responsible, well-rounded, intelligent, decent human beings who can truly appreciate, comprehend and understand who they are, what they have and what has been done for them. Once they attain that ability, I will also be able to fellowship with them as a friend, even though I will also always be their parent first.
I will be able to share myself with them more fully, my experiences, my knowledge and understanding and how I came to be the person I am and it will be utterly fulfilling and truly reciprocal because I will know that they will then have the ability to delight in me just as I delight in them.

We sin because we are patristic spiritual heirs of Adam, the first male. This is explained inThe Concept of Spiritual Lineage.
Adam cut himself off from his direct link to spiritual perfection: God.
Upon doing so, his spirit was forever marred and inclined towards perpetual rebellion instead of God's perfection. In cutting himself off from the source of life--God, he became a slave to his body--flesh, because the perfection of God's spirit was no longer most important, no longer the leader, no longer priority, no longer given precedence over everything else. Of course, we all know that this was Adam's choice, in which we also know he chose poorly.

Jesus restored that direct spiritual link to perfection, but the restored link is still true to the first as it must be something that is worked towards and perpetually maintained.

That is why Jesus said He is the only way. Something that I just couldn't wrap my brain around, and something that was entirely too exclusionary for someone who was wandering around in the Kum Bah Yah mentality of Eastern Mysticism and New Age Theology. Someone who considered themselves educated & reasonable and considered those who blindly believed in exclusionary tenets of spirituality as ignorant, uneducated, unreasonable and to be pitied.
However, in my case, my genuine search for ultimate truth only became genuine when I resolved in my heart and mind, humbled my educated and reasonable perspective of myself, to accept that truth no matter what it ended up being. Only then was I able to truly "reason" and consider the infinite fractals of truth that are shattered throughout the millennia in the recorded history of mankind, and begin to piece together the original fabric of Truth.
So many of us are searching, but so many keep certain resolutions or preconceived notions about what we allow ourselves to consider as Truth, that most simply end up piecing together a cloak of deception in lieu of a fabric of Truth.
I long and yearn in my heart for everyone who is searching to find Truth. We are all brothers and sisters and we are all on the same journey.

Originally posted by stupid girl
reply to post by Greatest I am

 

You are as big a looser as your God. Satan indeed. Care to throw any more of your fantasy characters at me?

??
You're calling him a loser, yet you can't even spell it correctly?
That's classy.

Did your God make the human race?
If so, who or what was the model for our range of emotions?
The sun?
Water?

God as an immutable force, huh?
Yet He is dependable and faithful.
His nature, attributes, purpose and essence are immutable.

But He identified himself to mankind as "I AM".....as in continuing, progressing and evolving, in a constant state of being and becoming.
Thus, God as an immutable force refers to the essence or attributes of God, and not to His operations in creation and providence, only in so far as these are always in harmony with the immutability of the divine nature.

edit on 4-6-2012 by stupid girl because: (no reason given)

edit on 4-6-2012 by stupid girl because: (no reason given)

www.youtube.com...

Regards
DL

reply to post by Greatest I am


I don't do videos.

what's it about?

The Dragon In My Garage
by Carl Sagan



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


"A fire-breathing dragon lives in my garage"
Suppose (I'm following a group therapy approach by the psychologist Richard Franklin) I seriously make such an assertion to you. Surely you'd want to check it out, see for yourself. There have been innumerable stories of dragons over the centuries, but no real evidence. What an opportunity!

"Show me," you say. I lead you to my garage. You look inside and see a ladder, empty paint cans, an old tricycle -- but no dragon.

"Where's the dragon?" you ask.

"Oh, she's right here," I reply, waving vaguely. "I neglected to mention that she's an invisible dragon."

You propose spreading flour on the floor of the garage to capture the dragon's footprints.

"Good idea," I say, "but this dragon floats in the air."

Then you'll use an infrared sensor to detect the invisible fire.

"Good idea, but the invisible fire is also heatless."

You'll spray-paint the dragon and make her visible.

"Good idea, but she's an incorporeal dragon and the paint won't stick." And so on. I counter every physical test you propose with a special explanation of why it won't work.

Now, what's the difference between an invisible, incorporeal, floating dragon who spits heatless fire and no dragon at all? If there's no way to disprove my contention, no conceivable experiment that would count against it, what does it mean to say that my dragon exists? Your inability to invalidate my hypothesis is not at all the same thing as proving it true. Claims that cannot be tested, assertions immune to disproof are veridically worthless, whatever value they may have in inspiring us or in exciting our sense of wonder. What I'm asking you to do comes down to believing, in the absence of evidence, on my say-so. The only thing you've really learned from my insistence that there's a dragon in my garage is that something funny is going on inside my head. You'd wonder, if no physical tests apply, what convinced me. The possibility that it was a dream or a hallucination would certainly enter your mind. But then, why am I taking it so seriously? Maybe I need help. At the least, maybe I've seriously underestimated human fallibility. Imagine that, despite none of the tests being successful, you wish to be scrupulously open-minded. So you don't outright reject the notion that there's a fire-breathing dragon in my garage. You merely put it on hold. Present evidence is strongly against it, but if a new body of data emerge you're prepared to examine it and see if it convinces you. Surely it's unfair of me to be offended at not being believed; or to criticize you for being stodgy and unimaginative -- merely because you rendered the Scottish verdict of "not proved."

Imagine that things had gone otherwise. The dragon is invisible, all right, but footprints are being made in the flour as you watch. Your infrared detector reads off-scale. The spray paint reveals a jagged crest bobbing in the air before you. No matter how skeptical you might have been about the existence of dragons -- to say nothing about invisible ones -- you must now acknowledge that there's something here, and that in a preliminary way it's consistent with an invisible, fire-breathing dragon.

Now another scenario: Suppose it's not just me. Suppose that several people of your acquaintance, including people who you're pretty sure don't know each other, all tell you that they have dragons in their garages -- but in every case the evidence is maddeningly elusive. All of us admit we're disturbed at being gripped by so odd a conviction so ill-supported by the physical evidence. None of us is a lunatic. We speculate about what it would mean if invisible dragons were really hiding out in garages all over the world, with us humans just catching on. I'd rather it not be true, I tell you. But maybe all those ancient European and Chinese myths about dragons weren't myths at all.

Gratifyingly, some dragon-size footprints in the flour are now reported. But they're never made when a skeptic is looking. An alternative explanation presents itself. On close examination it seems clear that the footprints could have been faked. Another dragon enthusiast shows up with a burnt finger and attributes it to a rare physical manifestation of the dragon's fiery breath. But again, other possibilities exist. We understand that there are other ways to burn fingers besides the breath of invisible dragons. Such "evidence" -- no matter how important the dragon advocates consider it -- is far from compelling. Once again, the only sensible approach is tentatively to reject the dragon hypothesis, to be open to future physical data, and to wonder what the cause might be that so many apparently sane and sober people share the same strange delusion.