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God to Jesus. I just condemned the human race. Now go die to save them.

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posted on Jun, 1 2012 @ 07:28 PM
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God to Jesus. I just condemned the human race. Now go die to save them.

www.youtube.com...

www.youtube.com...

www.youtube.com...

I think that the notion that punishing the innocent instead of the guilty perpetrator is immoral. Be it a willing sacrifice as some believe with Jesus or unwilling victim.

I also think that God, who has a plethora of other options, would have come up with a moral way instead of an immoral and barbaric human sacrifice.

I agree with scriptures that say that we are all responsible for our own righteousness as well as our own iniquity and that God cannot be bribed by sacrifice.

Ezekiel 18:20
The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

Psalm 49:7
None of them can by any means redeem his brother, nor give to God a ransom for him:

I believe as I do because I believe that the first rule of morality is harm/care of children.

blog.ted.com...

Do you agree that the notion of substitutionary atonement is immoral and that God’s first principle of morality is harm/care and that this would prevent him from demanding the death of his son?

Regards
DL




posted on Jun, 1 2012 @ 07:53 PM
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The Son is in the Father, and The Father is in The Son. He sacrificed Himself in flesh, for us. By doing that He has set us free from that of the flesh and gave us eternal life. Now to accept that and grow in faith.



posted on Jun, 1 2012 @ 07:58 PM
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Originally posted by KaelemJames
The Son is in the Father, and The Father is in The Son. He sacrificed Himself in flesh, for us. By doing that He has set us free from that of the flesh and gave us eternal life. Now to accept that and grow in faith.


Gah.

LDKmfslkfmlkmslfmlkmflskdmflksdfm

The kingdom of god is not in ONE MAN, it is in ALL MEN.

Paraphrased from your BIBLE.

Therefore I have faith in no one but myself and everything and everyone else, because I am the universe, WE are the universe.

Religion sure has been digging at me today....
edit on 1-6-2012 by b3l13v3 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 1 2012 @ 08:14 PM
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reply to post by b3l13v3
 


The mind sciences and many “new age” type religions and beliefs use this Scripture to say that everyone has God within them. “The kingdom of God is within you,” is interpreted as all of God's power and truth are built into you.

The word “within in the Greek is “entos,” which is accurately translated “in the midst of”. So it really should be understood as Jesus saying the Kingdom of God is within your midst, or among you. In other words, wherever Jesus is, it accompanies him. What it does NOT mean is that it resides in everyone.



posted on Jun, 1 2012 @ 08:27 PM
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reply to post by KaelemJames
 


You should read the book "As a man thinketh" PUBLISHED IN 1902 and then come back and call it New Age.

The bible has been mis/retranslated so many times it shouldn't even be considered fiction at this point, it should be considered hogwash(minus the few GOOD things about PERSONAL AND INTERPERSONAL SPIRITUAL DEVELOPMENT).

And I'd love you to see you debunk this with your rhetoric:



Christianity is a false-religion, it was developed BY the Pagans the same people who killed Yeshua.

Logic people, Logic.



posted on Jun, 1 2012 @ 08:45 PM
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reply to post by b3l13v3
 


First of, i do not follow religion. I do have my own relationship with The Creator. I do not go to church to be fooled into lies, as i am spiritual, by myself, in my quiet room. I do research more than you think, so your comment on "logic" "gah" and that ramble of letters, is uncalled for. It doesn't make me look like the fool.

To think you are God is not correct, imo. Though we are part of Him, we are not Him. To say you are Him won't bring you anywhere close to the Kingdom, again my opinion, even though that should be "logic"

Nonetheless, i am not here to have a debate. I have no desire to start one with you, as i suck at debates anyways - and i don't speak your language. You believe what you want, and i will do that which satisfies my soul and spirit.

Peace.


edit on 09/02/2012 by KaelemJames because: spelling



posted on Jun, 1 2012 @ 08:48 PM
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reply to post by Greatest I am
 


God didn't demand the death of his son... The ones that opposed him did...

God knew he would be killed for the things he taught... but as i've said to you before, God sacrificed the one for the many...

He came to do the will of the Father... And that was to show us how God wants man to live...

He gave us commandments directly from the Father... And outed the man made laws of old...

It was his life that was important... NOT his death




posted on Jun, 1 2012 @ 08:50 PM
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reply to post by KaelemJames
 


On that note we probably have a much more similar belief system than anticipated.

Under that premise, I will leave you with this.


"we are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively. There's no such thing as death, life is only a dream, and we're the imagination of ourselves. Here's Tom with the weather." -Bill Hicks



posted on Jun, 1 2012 @ 10:30 PM
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Originally posted by b3l13v3

Originally posted by KaelemJames
The Son is in the Father, and The Father is in The Son. He sacrificed Himself in flesh, for us. By doing that He has set us free from that of the flesh and gave us eternal life. Now to accept that and grow in faith.


Gah.

LDKmfslkfmlkmslfmlkmflskdmflksdfm

The kingdom of god is not in ONE MAN, it is in ALL MEN.

Paraphrased from your BIBLE.

Therefore I have faith in no one but myself and everything and everyone else, because I am the universe, WE are the universe.

Religion sure has been digging at me today....
edit on 1-6-2012 by b3l13v3 because: (no reason given)


Actually you're wrong. The Kingdom of God was at hand, but only a minority of the jews accepted Yeshua so his physical Kingdom was postponed. Jacob's Trouble will rectify that mistake and make them ready for him this next go around. The second covenant was established only with those who chose to believe in him. Context is a wonderful thing.



posted on Jun, 2 2012 @ 12:21 AM
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There's a lot that's been said in this thread already, but I think the crux of the question surrounds the character of God.

You're assuming that God chose to condemn mankind because it suited him to do so. This isn't accurate.
God condemned sin in mankind because His holy character demanded that it must be so. The Bible states that "though we are faithless, He will remain faithful, for He cannot disown Himself". That simple sentence reveals a lot about God and His character. The one thing that God is bound by is His Own nature. He will not compromise Himself, not for you, not for me, not even for His own sake.

So... when mankind sinned and "the fall" occurred, God judged... not because it suited him to do so, but because His righteousness, His holiness, and His justice demanded that it must be so.

Likewise, God's character as good, and holy, and pure, His character as a redeemer (remember, Job said "I know that my redeemer lives", thousands of years before Christ), demanded that He Himself must do what sinful man could not. This is why the Bible says that "by this, we know love: that Jesus laid down His life for us", "for while we were still sinners, Christ died for us".

Pause on that. While we were STILL sinners. God didn't wait for mankind to make desperate attempts at reconciliation (this, by note, is exactly what religion is - man's desperate attempt to reach God), but instead, provided Christ, "the lamb who was slain before the foundation of the world".

"Greater love has no man than this: that he lay down His life for His friends."



posted on Jun, 2 2012 @ 12:49 AM
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reply to post by Greatest I am
 


Is that really what happened?
Maybe the human race condemned themselves.

I remember it was explained that the Creator could not figure why man kept sinning and why he couldn't seem to follow a few simple instructions? He was at wits end and about to destroy man - his creation - like a bad piece of artwork the artist decides he doesn't like - and doesn't want it laying around with HIS name on it.
Suddenly someone I forget who said that man was different from God in his inner being and someone said to God something like "If you were human you'd know how hard it is NOT to sin" then you would understand and God said OK. Let's see how hard it is. God came as Jesus just to see what it was like being a man instead of a God. Die to save them is sort of a misunderstanding. He came to save us. Died trying.



posted on Jun, 2 2012 @ 08:16 AM
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Originally posted by KaelemJames
The Son is in the Father, and The Father is in The Son. He sacrificed Himself in flesh, for us. By doing that He has set us free from that of the flesh and gave us eternal life. Now to accept that and grow in faith.


The Father isnt the Son, He is the Father. Remember at the baptism of Christ and during the transfiguration the Father could be heard blessing His Son? The Son also isnt the Father, oddly enough the Son is the Son.



posted on Jun, 2 2012 @ 01:15 PM
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reply to post by Greatest I am
 

Your entire premise is incorrect. He is actually bound by an agreement that would prevent that now. See Leviticus 26. Based on what they did with the golden calf God actually brought up the thought that he should simply destroy the Israelites and start over with Moses. Horrified at the thought Moses talked him out of it and got the Leviticus 26 compact to prevent that.

The Leviticus 26 compact sets the guidelines for the relationship between the Jewish God and his people. Obey the laws given by God and these are the benefits. Sin and break the laws given down and there will be various punishments given out. Top level punishments are the deaths of most of the people involved and slavery and expulsion from your country.

However the final detail is that no matter how long or terrible the punishment decreed eventually the descendants will be restored.

Leviticus 26
41 And that I also have walked contrary unto them, and have brought them into the land of their enemies; if then their uncircumcised hearts be humbled, and they then accept of the punishment of their iniquity:
42 Then will I remember my covenant with Jacob, and also my covenant with Isaac, and also my covenant with Abraham will I remember; and I will remember the land.
43 The land also shall be left of them, and shall enjoy her sabbaths, while she lieth desolate without them: and they shall accept of the punishment of their iniquity: because, even because they despised my judgments, and because their soul abhorred my statutes.
44 And yet for all that, when they be in the land of their enemies, I will not cast them away, neither will I abhor them, to destroy them utterly, and to break my covenant with them: for I am the LORD their God.
45 But I will for their sakes remember the covenant of their ancestors, whom I brought forth out of the land of Egypt in the sight of the heathen, that I might be their God: I am the LORD.
46 These are the statutes and judgments and laws, which the LORD made between him and the children of Israel in mount Sinai by the hand of Moses.

Hosea 6
1 Come, and let us return unto the LORD: for he hath torn, and he will heal us; he hath smitten, and he will bind us up.
2 After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight.

2000 years eh?



posted on Jun, 2 2012 @ 06:34 PM
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reply to post by NOTurTypical
 


Thank you for your kind input. Never too old to up my knowledge, and to get closer to Him by doing that.

Much respect.



posted on Jun, 2 2012 @ 06:53 PM
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"The Fall" was a result of our own actions. God also said, "Do not put your hand on the stove, otherwise you will be burned."

Now, its not that God saw you put your hand on the stove and then condemned your hand to burn, its just that the stove was hot. The tree of knowledge of good and evil had its own consequences built into it just like the stove has consequences built into it for those who wish to touch it.

God never condemned us. God actually tried to help us refrain from condemning ourselves.

If my mom tells me not to put my hand on the stove and I do it anyway, is it her fault I did? I mean, sure she brought me into this world, so I guess in an extremely indirect way it is, but I mean come on. Seriously? I have free will.



posted on Jun, 2 2012 @ 06:59 PM
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reply to post by newcovenant
 


We sin because we are relatively powerful and disproportionally irresponsible. The saying, "With great power comes great responsibility" is meaningless to us. So we pervert our superior staus by using it to control. God, who is also superior, is different than us because God gave us free will.

Being human is hard. It's hard to be superior and not use your power for evil.



posted on Jun, 4 2012 @ 11:13 AM
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Originally posted by KaelemJames
The Son is in the Father, and The Father is in The Son. He sacrificed Himself in flesh, for us. By doing that He has set us free from that of the flesh and gave us eternal life. Now to accept that and grow in faith.


To accept profiting from God having his son needlessly murdered is an immoral position.

Go ahead and accept such. Satan will love you for it.

It was God's plan from the beginning to have Adam and Eve eat the forbidden fruit. This can be demonstrated by the fact that the bible says that Jesus "was crucified from the foundations of the Earth," that is to say, God planned to crucify Jesus as atonement for sin before he even created human beings or God damned sin.

If God had not intended humans to sin from the beginning, why did he build into the Creation this "solution" for sin? Why create a solution for a problem you do not anticipate?

God knew that the moment he said "don't eat from that tree," the die was cast. The eating was inevitable. Eve was merely following the plan.

This then begs the question.

What kind of God would plan and execute the murder of his own son when there was absolutely no need to?

Only an insane God. That’s who.

The cornerstone of Christianity is human sacrifice, thus showing it‘s immorality.

One of Christianity's highest form of immorality is what they have done to women.
They have denied them equality and subjugated them to men.

www.youtube.com...

www.youtube.com...

www.youtube.com...

Regards
DL

Regards
DL



posted on Jun, 4 2012 @ 11:15 AM
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Originally posted by b3l13v3

Originally posted by KaelemJames
The Son is in the Father, and The Father is in The Son. He sacrificed Himself in flesh, for us. By doing that He has set us free from that of the flesh and gave us eternal life. Now to accept that and grow in faith.


Gah.

LDKmfslkfmlkmslfmlkmflskdmflksdfm

The kingdom of god is not in ONE MAN, it is in ALL MEN.

Paraphrased from your BIBLE.

Therefore I have faith in no one but myself and everything and everyone else, because I am the universe, WE are the universe.

Religion sure has been digging at me today....
edit on 1-6-2012 by b3l13v3 because: (no reason given)


Yours is the Gnostic position and quite correct.

Regards
DL



posted on Jun, 4 2012 @ 11:21 AM
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Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by Greatest I am
 


God didn't demand the death of his son... The ones that opposed him did...

God knew he would be killed for the things he taught... but as i've said to you before, God sacrificed the one for the many...

He came to do the will of the Father... And that was to show us how God wants man to live...

He gave us commandments directly from the Father... And outed the man made laws of old...

It was his life that was important... NOT his death



Yet Christians care little for his life and good advice but sure line up quickly to profit from his murder.

Regards
DL



posted on Jun, 4 2012 @ 11:35 AM
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Romans 11:33-34
King James Version (KJV)
33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!

34 For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?



Well, Greatest I am, you give it (reading God's mind) your best shot.
Who is your God anyway? You have me convinced it is Satan.



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