Charles Manson - "nutjob" or something more?

reply to post by Outofcontrol


In the first video, his voice and mannerisms are so close to Dubya's! Anyone?
Charlie is an interesting, charismatic, intelligent man who was more into lovin' than killin'. I don't think he's a morally great person, he seems pretty debauched, but he is definitely possesses intelligence and spirituality.
Now, I am not saying he's a biblical figure, but whoever orchestrated his notoriety was playing with biblical symbolism. Charlie, born No Name Maddox; Charlies, Son of Man; Charlie's Angels...

"The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity." (Matthew 13:41)

I think what is most interesting is peoples reaction to him. Its kind of like analyzing the analyzer. If I were an alien using this thread to determine just what humans are, I would say the majority are very scared, primitive-minded, irrational beings who claim everyone else's ish don't stink but their own. Dangerous creatures indeed.

reply to post by ogbert


So whats the point in all that rambling? How does this square with what he did?

It amazes me that people can heave praise on this guy yet ignore the singular crime that made him infamous: He brainwashed a bunch of kids into murdering a woman and her unborn child in the most gruesome way imaginable.

He says he is not a leader or a follower; just a reflection of what we made him. In a way, that's true, because in another time, or, in a different society, he would represent something else.

And this is how he chose to 'teach us'? What is the lesson here? Is there any lesson, or, perhaps, just a vain-glorious expression of his own personal - AND COMPLETELY ARBITRARY - philosophy?

I don't doubt anything that you wrote. But when you say he traded 'conscience for consciousness' are you implying consciousness and conscience are opposites or incompatible? Manson identified with the 'absolute', or the Godhead, the non-conditioned state of being which he like all good gnostics places in dichotomy to the realm of appearance.

Anything that is "conditioned" by the realm of appearance - morality being a prime example - is, according to this doctrine, emanating not from the self identified with the non-conditioned state, but with an external impetus, personified by the gnostics as the 'demiurge', ialdabaoth, correlated with the Jewish God 'Jehova' (the letters of this name form the Hebrew words for is, was, and will be, and the root itself, hayah, means 'to be', or 'being'). The root assumption of this doctrine is: this world we live and exist in is a mistake, an 'aborted fetus' being a symbol often used. This belief system, although claiming to be 'unifying' is in fact dualistic at its core: this world opposes the other world: the Creator becomes a demon in rebellion against the Godhead (In gnostic folklore), or, a mere 'illusion' - maya - that conditions man instead of permitting man to condition it. Man is an 'alien' in this world, which has no reason aside from being conquered and subdued by man.

They never bother asking, WHY? WHY is there something in me which beckons righteous action? To in simple words, treat others as I would like to be treated? This question of perennial import, becomes relegated to a mere trifle - a scheme designed by the 'system' or 'matrix' to control mans affairs - to keep him hankered in the world of conditionality.

Lacking within this philosophy is an awe-reverence for creation and life - for WHY life is at is: for instance, how exactly do you reconcile mans innate urge towards preferential love with this universalist-individualist philosophy? To love one in exclusion to another rejects the 'logic' of the absolute - the "non-conditioned". Meaning, a world imagined by such a thinker is in essence, the world satired in Brave New World by Aldous Huxley. At it's core is a Promethean impulse to magically master the world - and make pawns of it's inhabitants - regardless of any qualms of conscience.

So yes - Manson very much imitated animals. But not man - who he manifestly disdained. Mans nature, his inherent concern for his fellow, his desire to build a better world, he branded 'evil', or at least thought cynically about it (which merely implies an inherent dysfunction and imbalance not with this world, but with western mans ambivalence towards it)

He manipulated people who were simpletons and on drugs on top of that. I dont think it takes a particularly brilliant mind to do this. Further his plan to overthrow the government and cause race wars was poorly executed . Slightly better than teenagers thinking tagging on someones wall is gonna show the man what for.

Seeing as how his schemes didn't work out and hes in the joint for the rest of his life i don't see how he is a genius. He failed if anything.

Charles Manson is the real Ron Paul.

Genius in some ways, a complete idiot in others.

Yeah, he can contemplate the more subtle facts concerning the nature of reality and act in ways to capitalize on them; revealing his genius.

But when he's standing toe to toe with the Grim Reaper, instead of turning around and walking away; he provokes him to violence instead. Revealing his retardation.

I like him. I don't understand all this "Oh, you horrible creature, you killed a person, oh how bad, shame on you, you psycho!". I think it is far worse to eliminate an entire species of animal from the planet, to rape and pillage the planet, to put other species through enslavement and suffering. THAT is evil. And you know who is responsible for that evil? Those oh so lovely humans. SO, when intelligent people kill stupid people, I rejoice. Yep. ^.^ Oh, I know, all the hate is coming my way, I said the unspeakable. Should I now be killed, caged, drugged?

Originally posted by breakherlegs
I like him. I don't understand all this "Oh, you horrible creature, you killed a person, oh how bad, shame on you, you psycho!". I think it is far worse to eliminate an entire species of animal from the planet, to rape and pillage the planet, to put other species through enslavement and suffering. THAT is evil. And you know who is responsible for that evil? Those oh so lovely humans. SO, when intelligent people kill stupid people, I rejoice. Yep. ^.^ Oh, I know, all the hate is coming my way, I said the unspeakable. Should I now be killed, caged, drugged?

Saved for later.

2nd

Originally posted by JailTales

Sounds like a nutjob. You realise psychopaths are deceptive right?

Don't judge him by his words or demeanor, judge him by his actions. If killing people isn't crazy then I don't know what is

anybody could use your argument to say anything about any crazy people. most people who've met bin laden thought he was a nice guy with valid criticisms of us foreign policy. does that detract from his actions?

Who exactly did Manson kill?

Cause I really dont remember him killing anyone... ever.

(offtopic: as the other member said about Osama Bin Laden "oh he didnt kill but he ordered it"... did osama actually order anything? You have any proof that osama bin laden was even remotely connected to 911? Perfect analogy tho... but it works only in reverse - neither manson or bin laden kill or ordered anyone killed - thats the only thing they have in common)

This actually gives more strength to his statement "(...)and even tho I dont make sense right now, that later on sometime (...) you say - hey who the hell you got locked up in there? I mean what is this trip? You really wanna know? (silence and a smirk) - I don't think so"

Same applies to... does anyone really want to know what goes on in the world? Whats wrong with the world? You really want to know? - I don't think so"

"Maybe when you see the world die, you'll see how real I try to be"

"I can't dislike you, but I will say this to you: you haven't got long before you are all going to kill yourselves, because you are all crazy. "

"You know, a long time ago being crazy meant something. Nowadays everybody's crazy"

And another great one is:

“You expect to break me? Impossible! You broke me years ago. You killed me years ago....”

"Ego is the man, the male image. Ego is the phallic symbol, the helmet, the gun. The man behind the gun, the mind behind the man behind the gun. My philosophy is that ego is the thinking mind. The mind you scheme with, make war with. They shoved all the love in the back, hid it away. Ego is like, "I'm going to war with my ego stick."

And finally...

"I wanna say this to every man that has a mind, to all the intelligent life forms that exist on this planet Earth. I wish the British would say this to the Scottish Rites and the Masons and all the people with minds who have degrees of knowledge, and who are aware of courts, laws, United Nations, governments.
In the 40s, we had a war, and all of our economies went towards this war effort. The war ended on one level, but we wouldn't let it end on the other levels. We kept buying and selling this war. I'm not locked in the penitentiary for crimes, I'm locked in the Second World War. I'm locked in the Second World War with this decision to bring to the World Court - there must be a One World Court, or we're all gonna be devoured by crime.
Crime, and the definition of crime comes from Nuremberg, when the judges decided that they wanted to call Second World War a crime. Honor and war is not a crime. Crime is bad. When you go to war and you're a soldier, and you fight for your God and your country, that's not criminal. That's honorable. That's what you must do to be a man. If you don't fight for your God and your country, you're not worth anything. If you have no honor, then you're not worth petty's pigs.
Truth is, we've got to overturn this decision that you made in the Second World War, or the Second World War will never end. Degrees of the war was written in Switzerland, in Geneva, at conferences that were made by the men at the tables, clearly stated that anyone in uniform would be given the respect of their rank and their uniforms. Then when the United States and got all the Germans in handcuffs, they started breaking their own rules. And they've been breaking their own rules ever since. War is not a crime, but if you judge war as a crime in a court room, then turn around: If 2 + 3 = 5, and 3 + 2 = 5; if you say war is a crime, then crime becomes your war. I am, by all standards, a prisoner of war.
I've been a prisoner of war since 1944 in Juvenile Hall, for setting a school building on fire in Indianapolis, Indiana. I've been locked up 45 years trying to figure out why I got to be a criminal. It matters not whether I want to be; you've got to keep criminals going to keep the war going because that's your economy, your whole economy is based on the war. You've got to get your dollar bills off the war, you've got your silver market sterling off of the war, you've got to take your gold and your diamonds off of the war - You've got to overturn that decision, that hung 6000 men by the neck.
You killed 6000 soldiers for obeying orders. It's wrong. And the world has got to accept that's wrong. When you accept you're wrong, and you say you're sorry for all the things you've done, then that will be a note on that court, and we'll have some harmony going on this planet Earth, now."

What is this? Hes really NOT crazy.

reply to post by dontreally


I did not heave praise on him. I pointed out that he is some sort of shaman. If we are going to learn from everyone; we can't throw the baby out with the wastewater. Some of the things he says, are uncomfortable, but true.

When I said that he traded conscience for consciousness, I was implying that is what separates us from the animals-a conscience. Although, I have observed my dog acting mighty guilty at times-but very short lived.

Analyzing everything from a left-brain logical standpoint is what created modern physical civilization. Shamans are very primitive; and, everything comes from within. They don't sit around and try to dissect Plato. They were the original dreamers and thought provokers.

Shamanism is a human phenomenon, which prior to rational thought, changed the way people perceived reality. In many ways, this is the essence of art, the beginnings of religion, and the evolution of a species. It's sort of like Kubrick's 2001, where the first humanoid grabs a stick; and, then the others follow.

Originally posted by Phage
reply to post by JibbyJedi

 

The guy is harmless.

Good. And he will be for the rest of his life.
Good. He deserves no sympathy. No admiration. He is slime. He manipulated weak minds. If you believe otherwise, he has manipulated yours.

edit on 5/9/2012 by Phage because: (no reason given)

So pretty much if you don't hop on the Phagebandwagon,your a manipulated slimeball as weak minded as the people Manson controlled?Who's saying they admire him?Is being a Genius something that is admirable to you?People are intrigued by his unique and twisted nature.Phage,you never know what you can learn from a person,and I feel there is something "deep" hidden within that man's mind for those capable of decoding it,it may be nothing,it may be something,but to call those who are interested stupid slime is low of you,let people entertain their minds how they wish.

reply to post by ArtOfTrance

but to call those who are interested stupid slime is low of you

I called Manson slime, not those who are interested in him.

Manson is no genius. He is a psychopath. The fact that anyone can somehow see "genius" or some sort of twisted spirituality in him shows how manipulative he is. His rants are purile, not profound. He is subhuman slime.

reply to post by ArtOfTrance


So pretty much if you don't hop on the Phagebandwagon,your a manipulated slimeball as weak minded as the people Manson controlled?


No...it simply means you think for yourself.





In this case, our #1 skeptic is right...the guy is a psychopath.


And calm down, do you really want to give others 'power' over you..? 'Cause that's what just happened...

reply to post by Phage


ok I retract that last statement,I tied that in with "If you believe otherwise,he has manipulated yours"
But I don't believe we should dismiss him as just another psychopath.Many others as well as myself just "sense" it if you will,it just "feels" like this man has a deep lesson some of us can take away by observing him and seeing past his insanity.who knows though,I just came here because I previously expressed interest in Charlie Manson's psyche in the past,I still am but am aware there is no way of knowing or finding out unless you walk down the same road as Manson....that is Insanity...not manipulating people to do your dirty work lol

reply to post by ArtOfTrance


Ya know, round here whatever Phage says goes, don't dare question him or his fanboys will be all over you

As for manson i think he's just some normal guy who did way too much acid and other psychedelics and lost track of which reality he was in.

Some of the quotes posted of him kinda make you think tho.

reply to post by ArtOfTrance

But I don't believe we should dismiss him as just another psychopath.

I think you would find that any given pyschopath is capable of spouting the same rhetoric as Manson in order to manipulate. There is nothing profound in what he says. All he is doing is blaming society for what he is.

War is not a crime, but if you judge war as a crime in a court room, then turn around: If 2 + 3 = 5, and 3 + 2 = 5; if you say war is a crime, then crime becomes your war. I am, by all standards, a prisoner of war.

Circular reasoning. Nonsense designed to turn you to his side. Poor Charlie.

Originally posted by Phage
reply to post by ArtOfTrance

 

But I don't believe we should dismiss him as just another psychopath.

I think you would find that any given pyschopath is capable of spouting the same rhetoric as Manson in order to manipulate. There is nothing profound in what he says. All he is doing is blaming society for what he is.

War is not a crime, but if you judge war as a crime in a court room, then turn around: If 2 + 3 = 5, and 3 + 2 = 5; if you say war is a crime, then crime becomes your war. I am, by all standards, a prisoner of war.

Circular reasoning. Nonsense designed to turn you to his side. Poor Charlie.

Ok... so from all that was said, everything you could extract was:

"War is not a crime, but if you judge war as a crime in a court room, then turn around: If 2 + 3 = 5, and 3 + 2 = 5; if you say war is a crime, then crime becomes your war. I am, by all standards, a prisoner of war."

1 sentence... 1 sentence was basically what you've picked out of everything else.

Once again... come on Phage.

And by the way, that "circular reasoning" doesnt seem to affect you on that theory of evolution you believe in: "how do we date the bones? from stratification and the specific layers in which the bone is found. And how you date those layers and come up with that stratification? From the types of bones found at different depths"

So, one is good for you, but the other one doesnt cut it? Double standards?

reply to post by Outofcontrol

Ok... so from all that was said, everything you could extract was:

Everything you quoted was just as semantically null or purile. There is nothing significant in what he says. It is all self serving nonsense.


When have I said anything about evolution?

And how you date those layers and come up with that stratification? From the types of bones found at different depths"

You apparently know nothing about geological dating methods.

reply to post by Outofcontrol


Manson does see some truths hidden to many "normal" folks. His use of '___' afforded him some unique insights and he has developed/learned some not so unique psych manipulation techniques, but the fact is he used it for his own good (or bad) and ego and is thus worthless to society at large except to absorb some truths and move on up the evolutionary highway.

Originally posted by Outofcontrol
So... what do you think?

Genius? Crazy? Alien? Time traveler? Angel? Jesus?

Loser and a joker, and a wanna be somebody, not very bright, pretentious. Basically an idiot with nothing whatsoever to offer anyone.