Iram of the Pillars - The REAL Atlantis

Hi ATS, I have been pondering about Atlantis, and thought about the connections between Atlantis and Iram of the Pillars, as noted in the Quran, the Bible, and History.

I believe that the story of Atlantis as written by Plato is just a rehashed version of the "Atlantis of the Sands," also referred to as Iram of the Pillars, or the City of a thousand pillars, just aimed at the Greeks. Now before jumps up and down, just listen. The Atlantis that you think off may really be Iram, which has been uncovered in the Middle East. Of course there are significant differences between the stories, but it gets interesting.

Plato describes Atlantis as such:

a mighty power

...

This power came forth out of the Atlantic Ocean

...

Now in this island of Atlantis there was a great and wonderful empire which had rule over the whole island and several others, and over parts of the continent

...

the island of Atlantis in like manner disappeared in the depths of the sea. For which reason the sea in those parts is impassable and impenetrable, because there is a shoal of mud in the way; and this was caused by the subsidence of the island.

Now, to Iram of the Pillars:

A quote from the Quran:

Have you not considered how your Lord dealt with 'Aad - [With] Iram - who had lofty pillars, The likes of whom had never been created in the land? And [with] Thamud, who carved out the rocks in the valley? And [with] Pharaoh, owner of the stakes? - [All of] whom oppressed within the lands And increased therein the corruption. So your Lord poured upon them a scourge of punishment."

Iram was considered to be a city which gained famous and inmeasurable amounts of wealth, due to trading. Furthermore, the city was portrayed as ahead of it's time, evident due to "Lofty Pillars...The like of whom had never been created in the land"

Some of you may state, "But Atlantis was an island nation" My reply is yes, Plato's story does mention Atlantis to be an island, but Iram was also an island if you think outside of the box. Iram of the Pillars was an island in the middle of the desert, a superpower of a city.

Replace the words:

Island = City (Basically an island in the middle of the desert)

Ocean = Rub' al Khali Desert

Now, both cities were destroyed by extreme forces. Atlantis, thanks to earthquakes and tsunamis, and Iram, due to Allah's/God's smiting. The general agreement regarding Iram though. is that it was destroyed by a sandstorm.

Atlantis was punsished due to it's force and aggresion of invasion, while Iram was punished by God, because of it's arrogance and power - worshipping false idols.

Atlantis was described as:

"Atlantis in like manner disappeared in the depths of the sea. For which reason the sea in those parts is impassable and impenetrable, because there is a shoal of mud in the way"

Iram was described as sinking into the sands, never to be seen again, due to the desert swallowing up Iram.

[Sources of Iram, from the Quran, also extend back into ancient Jewish accounts - check link - www.answering-islam.org...]

In essence, Atlantis and Iram are basically the same story, with Plato's version, having extra tidbits and different locations (due to the society he grew up in, and the locations he was influenced to use).

There is my theory, the Atlantis everyone thinks off, may actually be Iram, the city of a thousand Pillars, which was described in the Quran, and well known throughout the Middle East before it was written - longer ago than Plato's account.

Links:
en.wikipedia.org...
en.wikipedia.org...
www.turntoislam.com...
www.answering-islam.org...
en.wikipedia.org...

I think you need to read this thread....

www.abovetopsecret.com...

I mean no offense to you or the effort you've taken, but the above thread is by far, the best description of Atlantis I've ever heard.

~Namaste

reply to post by SonOfTheLawOfOne


That thread is quite an interesting one. My thread is pretty much, a what if scenario if you know what i mean. Atlantis, can pretty much be Iram, if looked at in a different perspective than what it was portrayed by Plato.

reply to post by SonOfTheLawOfOne


It is an epic thread but it doesn't really stand up to scrutiny - it is extremely interesting conjecture and speculation with no actual evidence to support it (as the OP himself admits in later pages).

This is actually just as plausible an option - in actual fact in many ways it is more plausible - particularly given the location.

Plato does state beyond the Pillars of Hercules and from my basic map reading skills and ancient naming that is in the opposite direction. You also have to consider the stories from South America of the Virracocha, Long hair and bearded caucasian types, that taught them agriculture, animal welfare etc.

Originally posted by daaskapital
reply to post by SonOfTheLawOfOne

 

That thread is quite an interesting one. My thread is pretty much, a what if scenario if you know what i mean. Atlantis, can pretty much be Iram, if looked at in a different perspective than what it was portrayed by Plato.

Also, context is everything. Would Plato have had an ancient super people based in what was Persia (an enemy of everything Greek)? I highly doubt it. You can absolutely guarantee that if there is any truth to Atlantis and it was actually based in the Near East, the Greeks would have placed it as far away as they possibly could.

Originally posted by Flavian

Originally posted by daaskapital
reply to post by SonOfTheLawOfOne

 

That thread is quite an interesting one. My thread is pretty much, a what if scenario if you know what i mean. Atlantis, can pretty much be Iram, if looked at in a different perspective than what it was portrayed by Plato.

Also, context is everything. Would Plato have had an ancient super people based in what was Persia (an enemy of everything Greek)? I highly doubt it. You can absolutely guarantee that if there is any truth to Atlantis and it was actually based in the Near East, the Greeks would have placed it as far away as they possibly could.

Exactly. Plato may have heard of "Iram of the Pillars" and reconstructed the story to fit Greece. The overall tones is similar, just with different locations. I feel it is, in effect a retold story, just aimed at Greeks.

reply to post by daaskapital


I think that Iram has been located near the Ash Shishar well, and was found to have collapsed into the sands due to the exhaustion of the vast underground cistern that the trading settlement was built upon. Once the cistern was drained the limestone lost much of it's strength and was not strong enough to support the weight of the town. A new trading post was built next to it some time later though I believe.

As a sideline, the Wabar craters were also at one time considered as a possible site of Iram by the Arabist Harry St John Philby. He originally thought the the craters may have been the remains of an extinct volcano, but they have since been found to be a cluster of meteorite craters. The silca on the site, caused by the impact, has been matched to glass found on a scarab brooch amongst the objects in Tutankamun's tomb.

reply to post by Biliverdin


Thanks for the extra bit of knowledge

What is your opinion regarding Plato and Atlantis? Do you think he was influenced by the story of Iram, and it's demise?

Originally posted by daaskapital
reply to post by Biliverdin

 

Thanks for the extra bit of knowledge

What is your opinion regarding Plato and Atlantis? Do you think he was influenced by the story of Iram, and it's demise?

I don't really have an opinion, and Plato's references are rather thin and vague, but I honestly feel that there are any number of possibilities of such 'disappearances' that he could have been referring to, and that it must have been quite common for settlements to seemingly disappear for one reason or another. I have always personally favoured a relationship with the tectonic activities in this region...

en.wikipedia.org...

reply to post by Biliverdin


Another good shout, especially when certain things are taken into consideration. For example, we all know of the Battle of Thermopylae - at the time, it was a narrow isthmus of land. These days it is a fair trek to the coast......

There is my theory, the Atlantis everyone thinks off, may actually be Iram, the city of a thousand Pillars, which was described in the Quran, 1,500 years ago - older than Plato's account.

reply to post by daaskapital


Huh

How can the Korans account written Im assuming when the Koran was in 600 AD (or thereabouts) be older than Platos account written 400 BC (or thereabouts)?

Are you saying there were Quranic writings 900 years before Mohammed?

reply to post by IkNOwSTuff


There is a source in my OP, which proves that Iram, and it's story extend further back into Ancient Jewish texts. I included it into my thread through the use of brackets. Iram was recorded to be destroyed by God before the Quran was written. The words you quoted may have been a misspelling on my part.

Iram is probably Ubar which has been discovered. I visited that site in 1997, if that is Atlantis it was a very small one!.

Ubar is a real place, Atlantis was a fictional place which may have been based on a real place but Plato's story isn't history

Originally posted by Hanslune
Ubar is a real place, Atlantis was a fictional place which may have been based on a real place but Plato's story isn't history

I think that is being a little overly dismissive. Plato uses Atlantis allegorically which would indicate that at the time that he was writing, that the implied meaning was one within the common knowledge of his readers.

Originally posted by Biliverdin

Originally posted by Hanslune
Ubar is a real place, Atlantis was a fictional place which may have been based on a real place but Plato's story isn't history

I think that is being a little overly dismissive. Plato uses Atlantis allegorically which would indicate that at the time that he was writing, that the implied meaning was one within the common knowledge of his readers.

Yes but it wasn't history, at best it was greatly embellished remembrance of say, Thera exploding, used as a setting for a stroy, like the civil war and Atlanta are used in 'Gone with the wind'. Ubar is real and was found by following the tracks left in the desert from hundreds of years of caravans coming to the place.

Originally posted by Hanslune
Yes but it wasn't history, at best it was greatly embellished remembrance of say, Thera exploding, used as a setting for a stroy, like the civil war and Atlanta are used in 'Gone with the wind'. Ubar is real and was found by following the tracks left in the desert from hundreds of years of caravans coming to the place.

I am not disputing that, all I am saying is that it doesn't mean that there isn't some basis in reality. Just as in a few thousand years after Atlanta has turned to rubble and been swallowed by the sands, Gone with the Wind could provide evidence that such a place once existed. The Bible also has been used to help locate or identify excavated sites. And Strabo and Herodotus have on the otherhand sometimes proved to be wholly inaccurate for the purposes of locating places they documented. 'Fact' is often nothing more than packaging. Ancient history wise. Or until proved, otherwise.

Besides, personally, I think Thera was the destruction of 'Sodom and Gomorrah' as witnessed by Abraham

It is all open to interpretation, until, one way or another, it is proved or disproved, and since Plato is the only existing source on Atlantis from antiquity, there is very little else to look at, fact or fiction. And therefore no need to piss on the chips of those who wish to consider it as valid. The idea had to come from somewhere after all. No harm in exploring it.

I really do wonder if you even know how to have fun

perhaps the pillars of Hercules was not the current Gibralter after all

Plato might have been keeping the Atlantis story intentionally 'mysterious' because the Continental large plane of Atlantis was in fact the lands flooded by the collapse of the rock barricade we now know as the the Bosporus Strait

see: www.google.com...://www.worldatlas.com/aatlas/infopage/bosporus.gif&imgrefurl=http://www.worldatlas.com/aatlas/infopage/bosporu s.htm&h=427&w=426&sz=18&tbnid=McNhihu0GvpQBM:&tbnh=84&tbnw=84&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dbosphorus%2Bstraits%26tbm%3Disch%26tbo%3Du&zoom=1&q=bosphorus+straits &docid=LzZfoVucJgMMCM&sa=X&ei=9otrT925BKH4sQKt66nfBQ&ved=0CDYQ9QEwAQ&dur=415



while everyone was looking 'West' of the Mediterranian in the Atlantic...

'ole Plato hid the location of the flooded Plain of 'Atlantis' from fortune seekers and wanna-be grave robbers by encrypting/coding/occulting the real 'Atlantis' in stating that Nation State was an Island ...
instead of being truthful and saying Atlantis became a Island Nation as the great plane the lies below the Black Sea became flooded in the year of the Bosporus Strait collapse ...

and the Mediterranian waters flooded into the great plain, and eventually even decimated the Fabled Atlantis in a 6 month destruction period which created the present day Black Sea which has little oxygen in the water at great depths that deteriorates artifacts on the sea-floor...

deep sea pro's, there is your 'Quest'... bob ballard was close but he did not search long enough... a submerged city state lies pretty much in the middle of the Dead Sea sea floor...preserved in an amazing state after some 14,000 years from it's demise in one sense and it's fabled ancestory in another sense



just my POV on the matter

reply to post by St Udio


Archaeology has confirmed, particularly in recent years, that there were many settlements around the Black Sea. And the influx of salt water would explain the demise of those settlements if they were dependent upon fresh water fishing, it would have taken, I should imagine a considerable amount of time for the area to acclimatise to such a massive change, not to mention the effect it would have had on the climate of the region. The area around Odessa particularly I think would be worthy of closer study and likely to have had a reasonably sized settlement prior to the salinisation of the Black sea.

reply to post by Biliverdin


well... we are in the same stadium (as it were)
because we are speaking of a large area & 10000 yrs before Plato or perhaps several 1000's before Salon passed on the info.

see:Lost Civilizations: Atlantis: Timaeus and Critias

www.activemind.com/Mysterious/.../atlantis/timaeus_and_critias.html
Timaeus and Critias, two of Plato's dialogues, are the only existing written records ... of Plato's day,

the story of Atlantis was conveyed to Solon by Egyptian priests. ...
This elder Critias told the story of Atlantis to his grandson, Critias,...

Just Whom were these 'Egyptian Priests' ?


thanks