Would you want to be a Freemason?

Originally posted by LeonoraTenen
Farish and Bush were found GUILTY of treason and both paid fines.

Prescott Bush was not found guilty of treason. Once again, the articles say he should have been charged with treason. There is a rather large difference.

If I said the words "convicted of treason", then I am sorry for not choosing more carefully not to say "convicted" but rather "indicted". Because that was what happened.

Fine, you can say 'indicted' because that did not happen either.

This happened. You can say it didn't until you are blue in the face, but the fact of the matter is, regardless of what I can or can't find, it is obvious that they committed treason and they were accused of treason and Farish paid the larger fine of the two.

Do you know why you can not find evidence of Prescott Bush paying a fine or being 'indicted' for treason? Because it only happened in your head.

John D Rockefeller was also on record using the excuse that he "does not run the daily operations of Standard Oil". That is why he was able to escape being charged himself.

Irrelevant to your original premise, try to stay on point.

Do you have a problem with this story? Do you believe this is a fabrication, or are you just trying to shoot out my tires in an obviously poor-mannered way?

The only problem I have is when people (like you) make up facts to support their point. The evidence that they had questionable dealings with German companies during the war is compelling enough without you fabricating phony treason charges to try and drive the point down further.

This isn't a legal trial here and if you want to put burden of proof on me for historical accounts, you can shove it.

I did shove it, all the way in, but you made such an easy target....

I'm not being paid for this. I don't owe you or anyone else reading this A THING. Do you hear me?
I owe you NOTHING. You can take this information or leave it.

I recommend decaffinated. After the switch to a more calming beverage I also recommend that if you are going to fabricate historical anecdotes that you do not get your panties in a twist when you get called out on them.

I could care less how you or anyone else feels about it, or me. I'm not even trying to lead horses to water. Just speaking my OPINIONS and if you want to discard every word I say, feel free.

Claiming that someone was convicted of treason when they were not is not an opinion. Saying they should have been is a different story.

You would be a total idiot to do so and it just shows your unwillingness to adapt to new information that goes against your pre-conceived notions of reality.

Once again, you claimed that Prescott Bush was convicted (then changed it to 'indicted') of treason when this did not happen and I am an idiot? Nice try. Again.

You preseneted no new information. You merely mis-read an article and then transposed the mis-reading here where you have now become belligerent because the fraud has been exposed.

Originally posted by LeonoraTenen
Therefore I have the right to say "Rockefellers and Bushes, two of the most powerful families in this nation helped Hitler and the Nazi's."

edit on 14-4-2012 by LeonoraTenen because: (no reason given)

Yes seems old Adolph was a big fan of Rockefeller
Below are just a few links of many.
I have not read all of them but have no need to.
Hit me on the nose once - I bleed
Hit me on the nose twice and I am already gone - know a leopard by it's spots - Scum rises to the top

hnn.us...

www.thehiddenevil.com...

www.eugenicsarchive.org...

www.oldamericancentury.org...

reply to post by LeonoraTenen
I have done the research , that is how I know most of your assertions on Masonry are for the most part, not true. If you're not going to post evidence of your assertions then I will not post mine. I can play that game too.

I am not wishing to be told how to feel, I just wish for people to provide more than just their word. I want to they put more thought into an accusation than just emotion or inaccurate information.

I could care less about Bush or Farish as they have no bearing on this thread. Augustus has already addressed this though and nobody cares about your alleged connections.

Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus

Haha... OK now I have time to deal with you. You are a frickin dirtbird.

In this conversation, I started off by saying that Bush was a Nazi profiteer.
But you had to find the weak spot and go for it...

Let me ask you, why are you defending them?? Sure sure you're just trying to deflate someone you view as an anti-Mason, but really why are you siding with the clear antagonist and going for the throat of somebody who wishes to simply raise awareness about how TWO OF OUR MOST INFLUENTIAL PRESIDENTS were Hitler's partners???

You say there were no charges??

www.hiddenmysteries.org...

"Prescott was convicted by the U.S. government under the Trading With The Enemy Act in 1942 and fined one million dollars. Brown Brothers Harriman's affiliate Union Bank- of which Prescott was director- invested huge sums of money into Thyssen Steel, the backbone of Nazi steel production."

www.democraticunderground.com...

"Instead of divesting the Nazi money," continue the authors, "Bush hired a lawyer to hide the assets. The lawyer he hired had considerable expertise in such underhanded schemes. It was Allen Dulles. According to Dulles's client list at Sullivan & Cromwell, his first relationship with Brown Brothers, Harriman was on June 18, 1936. In January 1937 Dulles listed his work for the firm as 'Disposal of Stan Investing stock.'

"As discussed in Chapter 3, Standard Oil of New Jersey had completed a major stock transaction with Dulles's Nazi client, I.G. Farben. By the end of January 1937 Dulles had merged all his cloaking activities into one client account: 'Brown Brothers Harriman-Schroeder Rock.' Schroeder, of course, was the Nazi bank on whose board Dulles sat. The 'Rock' were the Rockefellers of Standard Oil, who were already coming under scrutiny for their Nazi deals. By May 1939 Dulles handled another problem for Brown Brothers, Harriman, their 'Securities Custodian Accounts.'

Once the government had its hands on Bush's books, the whole story of the intricate web of Nazi front corporations began to unravel. A few days later two of Union Banking's subsidiaries -- the Holland American Trading Corporation and the Seamless Steel Equipment Corporation -- also were seized. Then the government went after the Harriman Fifteen Holding Company, which Bush shared with his father-in-law, Bert Walker, the Hamburg-Amerika Line, and the Silesian-American Corporation. The U.S. government found that huge sections of Prescott Bush's empire had been operated on behalf of Nazi Germany and had greatly assisted the German war effort."

Regardless of who was charged and what they were charged with, the point is, there was MASSIVE GOV'T SCRUTINY and they were in court for a long time over this.

I believe them (Bush & Farish) to have been found guilty or to have pleaded "No Contest" (since you need me to be absolutely specific about absolutely everything here and absolutely accurate, or else I'm absolutely wrong, right?)..

Even FOX News has this on their site:

www.foxnews.com...

It says that assets were seized by the US Gov't. I have read many times elsewhere that they both were found guilty or else pled no contest.

Many of the documents on this topic, which used to be up, now simply come up with ERROR 404.
So there is a lot less info about this than there was years ago when I was fresh on the topic.

I haven't read about this is a very long time. And many of the articles use the word "convicted"..
So I wasn't as much twisting and distorting things as you're so sure in your mind that I have.

Like I care. I'll defend myself, but I could care less what you think of me. I hope you think I'm an idiot because I wouldn't associate with someone who acts like you anyway.. And I'd be flattered to know you felt the same about me.. Anyone who would side with that family, even for the sake of argument, is like a criminal defense attorney.

You know the difference between a dead snake on the road and a dead attorney?
There are skidmarks before the snake.

Click here for more information.

Wait a minute here.... this just occurred to me.

WHY am I being asked to provide evidence to support my theories... at a CONSPIRACY THEORY forum.

I think you Free-masons are here ONLY for the purpose of dispelling Anti-Masonry and you do it in a way that is contrary to the nature and spirit of a forum like this.

So you either don't belong here, or you should adapt your MO to suit the place you are posting.
This isn't a Freemason's forum.

Originally posted by LeonoraTenen
Let me ask you, why are you defending them?? Sure sure you're just trying to deflate someone you view as an anti-Mason, but really why are you siding with the clear antagonist and going for the throat of somebody who wishes to simply raise awareness

You cannot use fiction to spread truth. If what Prescott Bush did was wrong (and it was), then what actually happened should be the focus.

TWO OF OUR MOST INFLUENTIAL PRESIDENTS were Hitler's partners???

You mean their father and grandfather was. ONE OF OUR MOST INFLUENTIAL PRESIDENTS, at great risk to his own life, came down on the other side of that conflict (albeit in the other theater).

"Prescott was convicted by the U.S. government under the Trading With The Enemy Act in 1942 and fined one million dollars.

Regardless of who was charged and what they were charged with, the point is, there was MASSIVE GOV'T SCRUTINY and they were in court for a long time over this.

Then say that. Don't say something that wasn't true.

I believe them (Bush & Farish) to have been found guilty or to have pleaded "No Contest" (since you need me to be absolutely specific about absolutely everything here and absolutely accurate, or else I'm absolutely wrong, right?)..

That's still not true, though.

Even FOX News has this on their site:

www.foxnews.com...

It says that assets were seized by the US Gov't. I have read many times elsewhere that they both were found guilty or else pled no contest.

That specific link, which happens to be the only one speaking from primary sources, concludes that

No charges were brought against Union Banking's American directors.

I haven't read about this is a very long time. And many of the articles use the word "convicted"..
So I wasn't as much twisting and distorting things as you're so sure in your mind that I have.

No, you were just wrong. Being wrong is okay if you're not too obstinate to admit it.

Anyone who would side with that family, even for the sake of argument, is like a criminal defense attorney.

That you have such a low opinion of a fundamental element of our justice system (ensuring cases against people are proven) says more about you than him.

Originally posted by LeonoraTenen
Haha... OK now I have time to deal with you. You are a frickin dirtbird.

Nice to see that when you are asked to provide proof of claims you made that you instead resort to personal insults. Good for you.

In this conversation, I started off by saying that Bush was a Nazi profiteer.
But you had to find the weak spot and go for it...

Do not blame me for your blunder.

Let me ask you, why are you defending them??

I am not defending anyone. If you read my previous responses a bit more closely, and without the hysterics which you have subsequently resorted to, you would have seen that I said there was evidence of questionable actions without you resorting to fabrication of anecdotal evidence.

Sure sure you're just trying to deflate someone you view as an anti-Mason, but really why are you siding with the clear antagonist and going for the throat of somebody who wishes to simply raise awareness about how TWO OF OUR MOST INFLUENTIAL PRESIDENTS were Hitler's partners???

Sorry you are so insecure that you think people are pcikign sides when they point out historical inaccuarcies in your posts.

You say there were no charges??

www.hiddenmysteries.org...

"Prescott was convicted by the U.S. government under the Trading With The Enemy Act in 1942 and fined one million dollars. Brown Brothers Harriman's affiliate Union Bank- of which Prescott was director- invested huge sums of money into Thyssen Steel, the backbone of Nazi steel production."

Sorry, Hiddenmysteries.org is not a reputable site for accurate information maybe you can link to another site that substantiates their invented claims.

www.democraticunderground.com...

This site has archived the original articles that exposed the collaboration, it does not however support you claims of treason charges against Prescott Bush. Why do you think that is?

Regardless of who was charged and what they were charged with, the point is, there was MASSIVE GOV'T SCRUTINY and they were in court for a long time over this.

I am not disputing that, what I am disputing is you claiming the treason charges.

I believe them (Bush & Farish) to have been found guilty or to have pleaded "No Contest" (since you need me to be absolutely specific about absolutely everything here and absolutely accurate, or else I'm absolutely wrong, right?)..

Farish plead 'no contest' and was fined, Bush did neither.

Even FOX News has this on their site:

www.foxnews.com...

Which corroborates your second source but not your claims of treason.

It says that assets were seized by the US Gov't. I have read many times elsewhere that they both were found guilty or else pled no contest.

If you read it many times over than link the sites.

Many of the documents on this topic, which used to be up, now simply come up with ERROR 404.
So there is a lot less info about this than there was years ago when I was fresh on the topic.

I haven't read about this is a very long time. And many of the articles use the word "convicted"..
So I wasn't as much twisting and distorting things as you're so sure in your mind that I have.

Why would the main site that you linked not have record of treason convictions? Seriously, just admit you made a mistake or did not remember correctly.

Like I care. I'll defend myself, but I could care less what you think of me. I hope you think I'm an idiot because I wouldn't associate with someone who acts like you anyway.. And I'd be flattered to know you felt the same about me..

I hate to break it to you but you really do not factor into my thought process and I have no relevant opinion of you. However, if you feel yourself to be idiotic then I will not attempt to alter your self-perception.

Anyone who would side with that family, even for the sake of argument, is like a criminal defense attorney.

If you mean that I will point out historical inaccuracies when you make them then I guess that is what I am.

You know the difference between a dead snake on the road and a dead attorney?
There are skidmarks before the snake.

You know what to do when you find yourself in a hole? Stop digging.

Originally posted by LeonoraTenen
Wait a minute here.... this just occurred to me.

WHY am I being asked to provide evidence to support my theories... at a CONSPIRACY THEORY forum.

I think you Free-masons are here ONLY for the purpose of dispelling Anti-Masonry and you do it in a way that is contrary to the nature and spirit of a forum like this.

So you either don't belong here, or you should adapt your MO to suit the place you are posting.
This isn't a Freemason's forum.

This post roughly translates to me as:

'Waaaaaaaa! I made a ridiculous claim and someone called me out on it! Waaaaaaaaa!'

Guess what? If you are going to post anywhere, let alone here, you better be prepared for people to question your opinion and challenge your facts, especially when your facts are totally and obviously so historically inaccurate and were fabricated to support your opinion.

Firstly, Hi all Been browsing for a year or so but only registered recently. This is one of many threads that got my attention....

Secondly I wouldnt mind being a Mason at all, In fact i've always wanted to join, but in my area it always seems to be less than honourable businessmen and OAP's. If there were more younger people I'd be willing to actually step up. Also since I am a mere mortal with no particular penchant for making money or contacts then I wouldnt want to join as I likely wouldnt make it past third or fourth degree due to the alleged power hungry brown nose types occupying the upper echelons. To be fair I have no clue how it works at all so so I could be (and probably am) wrong.

Finally I'm concerned about all the rumours that surround them. Their secrecy on these matters doesn't help. I can understand the secrecy to an extent but not when there are so many bad things floating around about them.

chocky

EDIT: In writing this I think I've talked myself out of it!!

Originally posted by KSigMason
Somehow "suck it" comes to mind, but I'm a smart ass.

Originally posted by KSigMason
nobody cares about your alleged connections.

Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus
I did shove it, all the way in, but you made such an easy target....

Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus
I recommend decaffinated. After the switch to a more calming beverage I also recommend that if you are going to fabricate historical anecdotes that you do not get your panties in a twist when you get called out on them.

All of these personal attacks and clearly antagonistic (for only the sake of angering me and patronizing me in front of a group of my peers) slurs, hardly exhibit shining examples of tempered men.
These are not qualities of the valiant, honorable people you present yourselves to be.
This is clearly a gang-mentality operation. Thank you for proving the point that Anti-masons are making.
With this MO of attacking and assassinating the character of your critics, you are simply another harshly defensive, easily angered spin-control agency.

It also clearly depicts the archetype of a group of insects, attacking a viewed intruder/threat to their hive.
Or a pack of lions together attempting to take down a gazelle - all starring each others posts every time, driving each others' "W" and "K" scores up and tag teaming (cherry-picking) my quotes in ways that a team of prosecuting attorneys and a DA would if they were trying to convict someone.

Then you turn the other direction and use the same tactic in reverse to defend clearly guilty parties, while doing it in a way where you appear to be only trying to weaken MY trustworthiness (not siding with and redeeming war criminals, which you are also doing) by accusing me of having fabricated things that you feel are innacurate, but can clearly be shown to exist in many online data resources.

You can say these sources are inaccurate, which cannot be proven for one thing... but don't accuse ME of fabricating this:

"Prescott was convicted by the U.S. government under the Trading With The Enemy Act in 1942 and fined one million dollars.

So where does this next quote here, BY YOU end up in light of my evidence here???

Do you know why you can not find evidence of Prescott Bush paying a fine or being 'indicted' for treason? Because it only happened in your head.

You fabricated THIS lie and I have proven that you are wrong in accusing me of fabrication.
So your trustworthiness is as questionable as you say mine is.
There's a taste of your own bitter medicine.

The point to me here is that the Freemasons are an organization that has been built upon Luciferian ideology.
They don't need to mention Lucifer or religion, even once, to be an organization that is doing his bidding in this world. I don't believe it is ever discussed, but this is why there is so much cross-over between members of Secret Societies, in general, and Freemasonry. Your organization clearly gives them more occult insight and power, it absolutely deals with (in an allegorically non-direct way) occult topics and holds both occult and governmental power in this world.

KSig, if you beg to differ with the occult connections people try and draw between all occult organizations and your organization, then why do all of you freemasons have links to Occult documentation on your webpages and blogs? Why are Magick and the Occult so prevalent with Freemasons, if the rituals have no value in a spiritual sense... they are just "plays". Well then so is any occult ritual.. just a play.

I understand that you all really don't like to talk about Horus, Sirius and other off-limits topics that are focal points, which related to and deal with the archetype of Lucifer. Just say you don't want to talk about it and we'll be done with it. Don't accuse me of lying and attacking masonry. That is you exhibiting your prejudice of Anti-masons and pinning that accusatory title on anybody who isn't 100% on board with your org.

So what happened to Bush
Did he get his or what
This is a hard story to follow
Did he get indited or what
Should have put him in the village stocks and thrown rotten vegetables at him
For what reason I don't know but I got a big smelly cabbage ready.
Well so what happened

reply to post by artistpoet


Nothing happened.

He died an old man.

I am typing a response to you. You are clearly impatient and narcissistic.
I have just addressed your points, but you mobsters are too busy gang-banging me to wait for a response before trying to drive the final stakes in.

Your attempts at generating hatred and anger in me are working.
I will now put that all back out to you in a way that will surely be felt by you.

Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus
Nice to see that when you are asked to provide proof of claims you made that you instead resort to personal insults. Good for you.

What about your insults? Is that OK? I guess you're infallible.
You can hurl insults around all you want, but what's good for the goose, ain't good for the gander.

Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus
without you resorting to fabrication of anecdotal evidence.

More accusations of fabrication on my part. Sorry, but I just put that to bed. I didn't fabricate anything.
Everything I SAID is represented in numerous online resources. You have just chosen to believe some of them over the others. Like the Fox News article.. I can see you're fair and balanced like they are.

Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus
Sorry, Hiddenmysteries.org is not a reputable site for accurate information maybe you can link to another site that substantiates their invented claims.

Oh, OK... but *I* invented and fabricated it right? I'm to blame for their (and many many other sites') alleged fabrications and "invented claims"?? Why don't you prove THEM wrong then?? You have mastered self-contradiction.

Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus
Farish plead 'no contest' and was fined, Bush did neither.

Haha.. they were PARTNERS and both shared the role of Director. So why would one have not been guilty while the other was.. the truth is, I know Farish took all the heat for the 3 of them. That is why it IS relevant for me to bring up John D. Rockefeller getting out of it... despite KSig accusing me of wasting my time to bring that up... that it is a "tangent".

Originally posted by LeonoraTenen
I hope you think I'm an idiot because...

Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus
... However, if you feel yourself to be idiotic then I will not attempt to alter your self-perception.

This is like when a kid grabs another kids hand and makes him punch himself in the face, while yelling "Stop hitting yourself!!" over and over. That is a mature tactic.

You are the one in a hole and I just dug myself out of the hole you TRIED to put me in. I will only stop digging, when I feel like stopping digging. Why don't you stop telling me what I should and shouldn't do and worry about yourself?

Originally posted by LeonoraTenen
All of these personal attacks and clearly antagonistic...

Guess you had a bit of short-term memory loss with the insults you dished out prior to the replies.

Originally posted by LeonoraTenen
What about your insults? Is that OK? I guess you're infallible.
You can hurl insults around all you want, but what's good for the goose, ain't good for the gander.

Sorry, I do not haul out the jibes unless someone else starts, which in your case, you did. Maybe you need to go back and re-read your comments prior to my repsonses.

More accusations of fabrication on my part. Sorry, but I just put that to bed. I didn't fabricate anything.
Everything I SAID is represented in numerous online resources. You have just chosen to believe some of them over the others. Like the Fox News article.. I can see you're fair and balanced like they are.

If you actually read your sources you would see that the only one that supports your claims of Prescott Bush being charged with treason is hiddenmysteries.org which is obviously a paragon of factual evidence. I also see how you conveniently avoided the point that the New Hampshire reporter who broke the story in 2004 did not mention Bush being charged with treason, only that he could/should have been charged with treason. Care to address that or will you gloss over it again?

Oh, OK... but *I* invented and fabricated it right? I'm to blame for their (and many many other sites') alleged fabrications and "invented claims"?? Why don't you prove THEM wrong then?? You have mastered self-contradiction.

Once again, you only linked one website that claims Prescott Bush was convicted of treason and paid a fine. One. Maybe you can relink the 'many many other sites' that support your claim.

Haha.. they were PARTNERS and both shared the role of Director. So why would one have not been guilty while the other was.. the truth is, I know Farish took all the heat for the 3 of them. That is why it IS relevant for me to bring up John D. Rockefeller getting out of it... despite KSig accusing me of wasting my time to bring that up... that it is a "tangent".

Farish is not Bush. You original assertion was Bush was convicted (and then changed to 'indicted') for treason. You have yet to back this up. Just admit your are wrong and it will all stop. They more you deny you made a mistake the more foolish this becomes.

This is like when a kid grabs another kids hand and makes him punch himself in the face, while yelling "Stop hitting yourself!!" over and over.

You should stop hitting yourself. I have come to find however that some people enjoy masochisitc behavior.

the one in a hole and I just dug myself out of the hole you TRIED to put me in. I will only stop digging, when I feel like stopping digging. Why don't you stop telling me what I should and shouldn't do and worry about yourself?

Stop digging, you are on your way to China at this rate.

Originally posted by artistpoet
So what happened to Bush
Did he get his or what
This is a hard story to follow
Did he get indited or what

No, he did not get indicted, nor was he fined. These transactions however were not at arms-length and were certainly open to question in regards the dealings with German subsidiaries.

Originally posted by W3RLIED2
reply to post by artistpoet

 

Nothing happened.

He died an old man.

Oh! So thats it he simply died an old man
So what shall I do with this metaphorical cabbage
Anybody want a cabbage - no thought not
The guys dead let the dead rest - it is the living you have to watch out for

Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus

Originally posted by artistpoet
So what happened to Bush
Did he get his or what
This is a hard story to follow
Did he get indited or what

No, he did not get indicted, nor was he fined. These transactions however were not at arms-length and were certainly open to question in regards the dealings with German subsidiaries.

Sigh - Thanks for explaining

So what has this to do with with being a Mason or wanting to as the OP asks
No - I would not like to be Mason - sounds like they get the flack for nearly everything.
If they held ritualistic sacrifices - then sure they deserve all the - (begins with S and ends in T) they get
But I thought it was practicing Satanists who were accused of that
Yet Satanist or the Church of Set are a completely different group to the Masons - so they say.

Originally posted by artistpoet
Sigh - Thanks for explaining

No problem.

So what has this to do with with being a Mason or wanting to as the OP asks

If you ask me, zero.

If they held ritualistic sacrifices - then sure they deserve all the - (begins with S and ends in T) they get

Despite all the glamour that such rumor brings Masonic meetings are a bit more mundane then ritual sacrifice.

But I thought it was practicing Satanists who were accused of that
Yet Satanist or the Church of Set are a completely different group to the Masons - so they say.

I think to anyone they are two different groups if you actually research what each one believes.