Would you want to be a Freemason?

Originally posted by LeonoraTenen
It makes perfect sense. I have come to this conclusion in the past, but how a person who is a young member of Golden Dawn, BOTA, EGC and OTO can become the WM of a major lodge in Los Angeles, is crazy to me. So you have a WM who is an esoteric occultist, who believes Lucifer is as much God as YHVH.

But, if he's all those things, I'd wager his interpretation of "Lucifer" is a far cry from Christians who think they know who Lucifer was. (Hint: they don't... Lucifer was the planet Venus—not a person, not an angel, not a demon... a planet. Period.)

I was told by this friend [and an older man (past WM at same lodge - who is also a deep high-level occult practitioner) that there is a split happening in their lodge and in many lodges.. between the members who want it to remain a mundane, mostly-secular organization.. and the members who want to see FM return to its mystical roots in magick and have more teachings regarding the higher "pathworkings" (for lack of a better word).

So there is this split occurring within the organization and they acknowledge the mystical roots are akin to other forms of magick, outside of the Lodge.

It's really difficult to separate FM from the occult. When so many world rulers have been masons and have also many times resorted to using "occult" wisdom as an edge (another tool or weapon) over their opponents.

There's nothing in occult wisdom that isn't available to everyone who bothers to look for it. I don't buy the argument that anyone has an edge, nor that it can be used as a weapon.

The CIA teaches esoteric magick as a means for remote viewing. Another friend of mine studied Kabbalah with an elderly gent who was ex-CIA. He learned about it in the CIA and told of many types of divination techniques they use to gather information. It's just a tool.

Indeed. A tool. Not a weapon.

I can say, speaking as someone who has sung latin masses in the cathedrals of Europe and also danced naked around a fire in pagan circles, and a long-time sole-practitioner of chaos magick, that I've never gotten anything close to a magickal "charge" in a Masonic ritual. There's some great stuff, to be sure, but I think it feeds the intellect with histories and potentials and things to think about more than it actively affects change. Just my 2 cents. Masonic Light might argue otherwise, and he's got a lot more outside esoteric experience than I do.

Originally posted by Masonic Light
"Lucifer" is not a part of Freemasonry, nor the GD, BOTA, EGC, or the OTO anyway.

You are right with the exception of the OTO.

And with the others, I would say "not officially"... but in the writings of Blavatsky, Hall, Pike and numerous other occultist teachers who have un-doubtedly shaped the theological and theosophical beliefs of all 4 of those organizations, Lucifer is aligned with God.

Crowley's Thelema is OTO. And I need not go into Crowley's obsession with "the Beast 666" and "Baphomet".
The OTO and Baphomet go hand in hand, period. And Baphomet is an analogue for Lucifer in Crowley and many other authors' writings.

All I need to do is bring this back to Manly P. Hall's (33º) statements in Chapter IV (page 48) of his book "The Lost Keys of Freemasonry", which I own by the way.

The day has come when Fellow Craftsmen must know and apply their knowledge. The lost key to their grade is the mastery of emotion, which places the energy of the universe at their disposal. Man can only expect to be entrusted with great power by proving his ability to use it constructively and selflessly. When the Mason learns that the key to the warrior on the block is the proper application of the dynamo of living power, he has learned the mystery of his Craft. The seething energies of Lucifer are in his hands and before he may step onward and upward, he must prove his ability to properly apply energy. He must follow in the footsteps of his forefather, Tubal-Cain, who with the mighty strength of the war god hammered his sword into a plowshare. Incessant vigilance over thought, action, and desire is indispensable to those who wish to make progress in the unfolding of their own being, and the Fellow Craft’s degree is the degree of transmutation. The hand that slays must lift the fallen, while the lips given to cursing must be taught to pray. The heart that hates must learn the mystery of compassion, as the result of a deeper and more perfect understanding of man’s relation to his brother. The firm, kind hand of spirit must curb the flaming powers of emotion with an iron grip. In the realization and application of these principles lies the key of the Fellow Craft.

I am fully aware that Freemasons at large have done everything possible to distance themselves from Manly P. Hall... saying his 33º held no authority and that he wrote this before he was a Freemason.. yadda yadda.

My freemason friends are the ones who told me about him back in the day and the WM guy had all his books and really loved the guy. He didn't feel it misrepresented Freemasonry at all.

So this just shows me that Freemasonry is whatever to whoever... it's as slippery as a banana slug and it can slither its way out of any sticky situation, simply by claiming so & so wasn't REALLY a mason.
It happened with Thomas Payne after he wrote "The Age of Reason".
As soon as one of them spills the beans, (but not before it gets public attention) they cut ties and make the person resign of their official connections.

It's like David Gergen quitting his official membership at Bohemian Grove after he began running for some office I can't even remember right now. It was a liability to his sought-after public position. Though he still remained an attending member and defends it against any outsiders' negative representations.

Originally posted by LeonoraTenen

Originally posted by JoshNorton
I think he was screwing with some young punk who shoved a camera in his face.

No different than Buzz Aldrin punching the jerk who insisted that there was no moon landing.

People get tired of the badgering, and sometimes they snap.

Originally posted by HardToStarboard
(And by the way, I tend to think he was just having some fun at the expense of the character with the camera.)

I'm not buying that... he was so ready with the whole spiel of ..."virtuous and pure, wholesome and innocent, how can you judge me?"
C'mon guys. He wasn't joking.. it just seems disingenuous and reachy to say that.

I'm not saying I can prove he was being serious, but sometimes in conversations you have to trust that your fellow conversationalist is being honest with you and themselves and really taking a look at what is happening, instead of bending their discernment (and interpretations) to fit what they want to believe.

I think anybody watching this, as an un-biased entity, taking it at face value... would conclude that he was NOT joking, but was taken off guard, by a rude Christian ambush journalist.

I agree it was rude and audacious. But I don't think it is entirely honest to jump to the conclusion he was joking.
That is like saying "Richard Ramirez" (the night stalker) was joking when he said he killed all those people.
The only person who would say such a thing would be either him, or his defense attorney.

But thank you for at least responding on that instead of ignoring it like last time I posted it here in this thread.

edit on 12-4-2012 by LeonoraTenen because: (no reason given)

Speaking of ignoring, are you going to contact him? Who better to speak to his meaning in the video than himself?

reply to post by LeonoraTenen

It's not semantics, it is fact that Reagan was never a member least of all a 33º. There is documentation that proves our points on Reagan's connection to Masonry. You don't like getting into debates because we don't just blindly accept your lies and we can counter with facts.

Honestly though, I hold nothing against Reagan and I wouldn't mind if he actually went through the degrees. I'm sure if he had shown dedication that he could have made 33º.

For those interested here is something from Paul Bessel's website on the matter of Reagan:

On February 11, 1988, several Masonic officials visited President Ronald W. Reagan in the Oval Office of the White House. Among the Masons present were:

Most Wor. Raymond F. McMullen Grand Master of Masons of the District of Columbia

Most Wor. Stewart W. Miner, PGM Grand Secretary of the Grand Lodge of the District of Columbia

Wor. William E. Chaney, Jr. Grand Marshal of the Grand Lodge of the District of Columbia

Ill. Francis S. Paul Sovereign Grand Commander of the Scottish Rite, Northern Masonic Jurisdiction Sidney R. Baxter Assistant to the Sovereign Grand Commander, Northern Masonic Jurisdiction, A.A.S.R.

Ill. C. Fred Kleinknecht Sovereign Grand Commander of the Scottish Rite, Southern Jurisdiction

Carroll M. Bowman Assistant Grand Secretary General, Southern Jurisdiction, A.A.S.R.

Ill. Voris King Imperial Potentate of the A.A.O.N.M.S. (Shrine) of North America

Jack H. Jones Imperial Recorder, A.A.O.N.M.S. (Shrine) of North America

The Grand Master of D.C. presented President Reagan with a "Certificate of Honor," which said that President Reagan's life was a testament to his firm belief in brotherly love, relief, and truth, and his service to the public has broadened the applications of temperance, fortitude, prudence, and justice to the benefit of all mankind. This Certificate further said that in recognition of President Reagan's efforts to promote good will and understanding throughout the world, this certificate was issued to him by the Grand Master of D.C. on February 11, 1988. A complete copy of the Certificate is printed at page 67 of the 1988 D.C. Proceedings.

SOURCE

You try to label everyone who disagrees with you as "low level" outside the need-to-know without actually having any fact of who you are talking to. That seems kind of reckless to make such assumptions. If Masonry is truly as compartmentalized as you think it is, doesn't reason/logic lead us to see that you would fall even lower than us? How can you justify making blind stabs in the dark?

Coming here with such a misguided, pessimistic, and aggressive manner shows you never wanted an honest conversation, but rather came to through your words around and be done with it.

And please don't come back and play the "you hurt my feelings" card now that your anti-Mason arguments have been shot full of holes.

You're trying to cloak your desire to pick a fight in a veil of "just wondering".

Originally posted by LeonoraTenen


You are right with the exception of the OTO.

Lucifer isn't mentioned in OTO either. Originally, OTO was a Gnostic Christian organization. After Crowley, it became Thelemic and neo-pagan.

And with the others, I would say "not officially"... but in the writings of Blavatsky, Hall, Pike and numerous other occultist teachers who have un-doubtedly shaped the theological and theosophical beliefs of all 4 of those organizations, Lucifer is aligned with God.

In the Vulgate version of the Bible, the term "Lucifer" is used as a title for Jesus Christ, and is still used in that context in the Easter Missal for Latin Rite Catholics and Anglicans. The Theosophists, on the other hand, use the term in a more ancient context, to denote the planet Venus and the archetype of Apollo. So it goes back to what you were saying about the problem with semantics: there's nothing inherently wrong with the word "lucifer".

Crowley's Thelema is OTO. And I need not go into Crowley's obsession with "the Beast 666" and "Baphomet".
The OTO and Baphomet go hand in hand, period. And Baphomet is an analogue for Lucifer in Crowley and many other authors' writings.

This is not the case. Crowley used Baphomet as his own O.T.O. name, not a name for anything called "Lucifer". The OTO professes to be a Templar Order, and the original Templars were accused of worshipping an idol called Baphomet. It was more likely that Baphomet was an old Templar password, from the Greek "bapho metis", meaning "baptism of wisdom". Crowley signed all official OTO documents as "Baphomet XI°", which was his official title as OTO grand master.

All I need to do is bring this back to Manly P. Hall's (33º) statements in Chapter IV (page 48) of his book "The Lost Keys of Freemasonry", which I own by the way.

As do I. Although, of course, Hall wrote that book 30 years before he became a Mason, and therefore the book is not the work of a 33° Mason. It was a book written by a 24 year old non-Mason, who used the term in its theosophical sense.

I am fully aware that Freemasons at large have done everything possible to distance themselves from Manly P. Hall... saying his 33º held no authority and that he wrote this before he was a Freemason.

Which, of course, is true.

My freemason friends are the ones who told me about him back in the day and the WM guy had all his books and really loved the guy. He didn't feel it misrepresented Freemasonry at all.

I don't think it misrepresents Freemasonry either. Hall had a knack for looking at things in a very deep and thoughtful way. He saw Masonry as a vehicle for the possibility of immense personal growth, and I very much agree with him.

So this just shows me that Freemasonry is whatever to whoever... it's as slippery as a banana slug and it can slither its way out of any sticky situation, simply by claiming so & so wasn't REALLY a mason.
It happened with Thomas Payne after he wrote "The Age of Reason".
As soon as one of them spills the beans, (but not before it gets public attention) they cut ties and make the person resign of their official connections.

Payne wasn't a Mason, and didn't claim to be. He would no doubt had been welcomed in the fraternity if he had wanted to.

Originally posted by JoshNorton
But, if he's all those things, I'd wager his interpretation of "Lucifer" is a far cry from Christians who think they know who Lucifer was. (Hint: they don't... Lucifer was the planet Venus—not a person, not an angel, not a demon... a planet. Period.)

I know Lucifer is represented by Venus and the pentagram comes from the path of Venus. It resembles one.
Björk's song "Venus as a Boy" is a good example of a pop version of Lucifer.

I know Lucifer is not a demon. But I would argue that it is much more than JUST a planet.
It is the bringer of knowledge. The agent of free-will..

In your Chaos Magick experience, you must have come across Lilith and Samael. And I would imagine you've done some Qliphothic left pathworkings. So you know what we are talking about here.

Yes, one's understanding of these energies and how they are ever-present in not only all of us, but in every atom/molecule/wave/particle of this universe... will expand if they broaden their horizons beyond dogmatic Christianity to see what this energy truly represents to us, Free Will, our enlightenment and our destiny/lesson as a whole.

It's just that both sides are sustaining the battle by constantly proving each other RIGHT!
The Christians say that Lucifer is the trickster. In Judaism, AND in Chaos Magick, Lilith is a trickster.
In Norse mythology, Loki is the trickster and is analogous with Lucifer - as an archetype.

The problem is this. There is internalized Satan which is viewed as Hall states in above quote, which are parts of the psyche.. simply ways of understanding Saturn and the mind and how we self-censor, self-judge.. etc.. etc..

And then there is the Theological side of Satanism (MLO, Current 218, TOTBL etc..) who feel it is blasphemous to refer to Satan/Lucifer as a non-external force.. they like to call it the Black Dragon,, or Black Light.. the Sinister Dialectic. Which is an external AND internal force, which they align with and channel much harder into this realm.

I am also very well read on these traditions. I know what they are saying and can really sympathize. It's truly a beautifully-destructive path. It's easy to see why one would feel such a way about God (the demiurge) and wish for all enslaved matter to be released into its formless, free-evolving state of Chaos.

They hate the number 10 (sephirot - tree of life) because it is physical and binding...
They exalt the number 11 (kliphot, Sitra ahra / tree of Daat) and call 11 the mother chaos which supercedes 10.

Originally posted by JoshNorton
There's nothing in occult wisdom that isn't available to everyone who bothers to look for it. I don't buy the argument that anyone has an edge, nor that it can be used as a weapon.

Not literally a weapon. But by effecting the causal plane, you supercede karma. At least that's what Chaos Magick is all about. You should know that. So it CAN be used as a weapon.. but the reprocussions will still happen because in truth, karma is not over-ridable. You'll inevitably end up being "hoisted by your own petard".

Originally posted by JoshNorton

The CIA teaches esoteric magick as a means for remote viewing. Another friend of mine studied Kabbalah with an elderly gent who was ex-CIA. He learned about it in the CIA and told of many types of divination techniques they use to gather information. It's just a tool.

Indeed. A tool. Not a weapon.

In this use, it is as much a weapon as a spy is.
Wouldn't you consider a spy to be "an edge" or "a weapon" of war?

Originally posted by LeonoraTenen


I know Lucifer is not a demon. But I would argue that it is much more than JUST a planet.

It is the bringer of knowledge. The agent of free-will..

The true name of Satan, the Kabalists say, is that of Yahveh reversed; for Satan is not a black god, but the negation of God. The Devil is the personification of Atheism or Idolatry.

For the Initiates, this is not a Person, but a Force, created for good, but which may serve for evil. It is the instrument of Liberty or Free Will. They represent this Force, which presides over the physical generation, under the mythologic and horned form of the God PAN; thence came the he-goat of the Sabbat, brother of the Ancient Serpent, and the Light-bearer or Phosphor, of which the poets have made the false Lucifer of the legend.


- Albert Pike (Morals and Dogma of the Ancient and Accepted Scottish Rite of Freemasonry, p. 102)

reply to post by LeonoraTenen

Which Masonic Temple has the picture? I'd like to see that. Golden Dawn and OTO are not under the umbrella of the Masonic fraternity, but I'm sure you see some bleed over in membership. I've been all over the world in various Masonic Lodges and buildings, and I've never seen a Baphomet on a Masonic wall.

I could care less that they have it or that you're talking about it online.

Many scholars, particularly those who are Masons, debate about the origins of our rites

reply to post by All Seeing Eye

Ugh...Freemasonry is free as we encourage free thinking, something fascists fear. Masonry as we are speculative (philosophical) Masons and we take our symbols from the operative Masons of the old times. There is nothing anti- or un-American about Freemasonry.

Our rituals in fact ensure that there is no competition nor interference of Masonic oaths and duties on someone's civic and non-Masonic life. Our don't force us to serve to Masters. I'll paraphrase a bit:

In the State you are to be a quiet and peaceable citizen, true to your government, and just to your country; you are not to countenance disloyalty or rebellion, but patiently submit to legal authority, and conform with cheerfulness to the government of the country in which you live.

I still serve in the military and I cannot use my Masonic membership to get out of any duty I don't want. If there is a conflict of scheduling between the two, the military trumps every time.

Originally posted by KSigMason
reply to post by LeonoraTenen

 

It's not semantics, it is fact that Reagan was never a member least of all a 33º. There is documentation that proves our points on Reagan's connection to Masonry. You don't like getting into debates because we don't just blindly accept your lies and we can counter with facts.

I have been typing and responding to other things all morning here... you are getting all pinched and ASSUMING (but you wouldn't do that) that I am ignoring you or not taking on your points. That's narcissistic and impatient. Not qualities of a maker of good men.

You are right. I am sorry. He wasn't really made a 33º... but if I weren't eager to address other more importent points in this discussion, (which Reagan isn't one of them, it was a side-note based on hearsay) then I would make the point about his Masonic involvements and how you helped make them more clear.

Originally posted by KSigMason
You try to label everyone who disagrees with you as "low level" outside the need-to-know without actually having any fact of who you are talking to. That seems kind of reckless to make such assumptions.

If you are going to skirt around difficult points I'm making, (focussing on minor issues) which other Masons here aren't skirting around, they are taking them head-on. Then I have only to assume A) You don't know and aren't necessary "low-level" but maybe not "HIGHEST level" or B) You are being disingenous and misleading.

I could focus on your typos and mis-spelling of words (which you do often) and say you don't exert a firm grasp on the English language and shouldn't be considered an authority of ancient wisdom if you're not even meticulous enough to spell basic words correctly.

Originally posted by KSigMason
If Masonry is truly as compartmentalized as you think it is, doesn't reason/logic lead us to see that you would fall even lower than us? How can you justify making blind stabs in the dark?

Because I read and read and read and read and read all that I can get my damn hands on!!!
And many masons are there for the bingo games, steak dinners and I dunno the fluffy hats???
How many masons do YOU know who don't even know what the word ESOTERIC means or who haven't even heard of Baphomet, OTO, Aleister Crowley or Manly P. Hall?

I'm giving you THE BENEFIT OF THE DOUBT by saying you're ignorant.. instead of either mis-leading or mis-led yourself.

Originally posted by KSigMason
Coming here with such a misguided, pessimistic, and aggressive manner shows you never wanted an honest conversation, but rather came to through your words around and be done with it.

That's total BS. I have seen enough to know that I have MAJOR problems with how Freemasonry is woven in with war, governments of all countries... the royal effing vampire family and banks who suck us dry.

Yes, I admit, I have problems with freemasonry and I am aggressive about my stance.

BUT you are wrong that I never wanted to have an honest conversation or that I want to be done with it.
I've been more dedicated to this thread than anyone else. How dare you be so dismissive with all the energy I've put into this. I'm taking each post, point by point.

Originally posted by MattNC
And please don't come back and play the "you hurt my feelings" card now that your anti-Mason arguments have been shot full of holes.

You're trying to cloak your desire to pick a fight in a veil of "just wondering".

Don't give yourself so much credit. You are a legend in your own mind.

Besides, "picking a fight" you say?? What are you and your buddy doing RIGHT NOW?
You are ganging up on me, talking in posturing, mock-intimidating ways. All fighting traits. You hypocrite!

I would much rather talk to the truly knowledgeable ones who are here for intelligent discourse, not for condescending and be-littling people who clearly show a firm grasp on a topic of discussion you seem to resent from the onset.

You can take your bad attitude and shove it where the light of Sirius don't shine.

Originally posted by LeonoraTenen


Yes, I admit, I have problems with freemasonry and I am aggressive about my stance.

I'm curious as to why you, a self-proclaimed Kabalist, would have problems with Freemasonry, which, in Levi's words, is "The Grand Kabalistic Association"?

reply to post by LeonoraTenen


Thank you for the honorable note.

Same goes with FM.. it descends straight from the Templars and they are the guardians of the grail.. the Cherubim, guarding the secret of Christ (as said in the above post by "All Seeing Eye").

Yes, in a round about way I do make that accusation. The grail is just another way of putting our birthright, our garden. So much has been taken out of context and had its names changed over the great number of years, but in the end, its still the same. But why? Why go through all the effort to hide the truth?

The greatest secret society is not the masons, far from it. Yes I believe Jesus was in fact a member of the greatest secret society mankind has never known, at least in the last 10,000 years.

It is my opinion that Masons are enlisted into ignorance and kept that way with promises of a grand afterlife. Why wait? Fed mystical BS in order to keep them looking in the wrong direction. Ahh yes, follow the Mason, he knows the way to spiritual freedom and everlasting life without end. AMEN!

The keepers of the Royal Grail, the truth that Jesus tried to enlighten us with, and the truth of the Flaming Sword.

I just have to say that I am truly enjoying this conversation right now. It is really nice to get to talk to those of you who ARE willing to discuss these deepest matters of these many ancient traditions.

Originally posted by Masonic Light

Originally posted by LeonoraTenen
I know Lucifer is not a demon. But I would argue that it is much more than JUST a planet.

It is the bringer of knowledge. The agent of free-will..

The true name of Satan, the Kabalists say, is that of Yahveh reversed; for Satan is not a black god, but the negation of God. The Devil is the personification of Atheism or Idolatry.

For the Initiates, this is not a Person, but a Force, created for good, but which may serve for evil. It is the instrument of Liberty or Free Will. They represent this Force, which presides over the physical generation, under the mythologic and horned form of the God PAN; thence came the he-goat of the Sabbat, brother of the Ancient Serpent, and the Light-bearer or Phosphor, of which the poets have made the false Lucifer of the legend.


- Albert Pike (Morals and Dogma of the Ancient and Accepted Scottish Rite of Freemasonry, p. 102)

THANK YOU!!! Immensely...
I have read this and it is exactly what I am saying. Theological Satanists use HVHY as Satan.
And Kabbalists have always said that it is easier to know God by negation, than by describing what God IS.
You don't have to explain this one to me, because I already understand what it means. But I would go a step further than you would in my interpretation of it.. I'm sure you know what step that would be.

Originally posted by KSigMason
reply to post by LeonoraTenen

 

Which Masonic Temple has the picture? I'd like to see that.

Never said that. Don't twist my words.

Originally posted by KSigMason
Golden Dawn and OTO are not under the umbrella of the Masonic fraternity, but I'm sure you see some bleed over in membership.

Lots and lots of bleed-over. Matter of fact, it was my understanding that most of the male members of the Pasadena Golden Dawn temple are master masons. Many of the women are Eastern Star. I've attended a few times.

Originally posted by KSigMason
I've been all over the world in various Masonic Lodges and buildings, and I've never seen a Baphomet on a Masonic wall.

Of course not... did I say that? I have never once thought that. ?? So I don't see why I'd say that?
Bedroom and/or Meditation room walls? Yeah.. quite a few. I knew a lot of them. All my life, my friends have been the freaks and weirdos.. as I am one of them. I haven't just happened upon this crap from YouTube videos guys. I'll quote you KSig and say a big "UGGHHH".

Originally posted by KSigMason
Many scholars, particularly those who are Masons, debate about the origins of our rites

It has been my perspective of observation that the ones who hold the power and who have read the most, are the ones who all end up on one side of that argument. And clearly there is a broad cross-section of society in their membership and not every good ol' boy from Kentucky is going to get on board with that side's view of the rite's origins.

One of my friends with a Baph poster, who argues the side of mystical origins, became WM... so that tells me, (should tell you too) that side tends to hold the flame for both sides.

Originally posted by Masonic Light

Originally posted by LeonoraTenen
Yes, I admit, I have problems with freemasonry and I am aggressive about my stance.

I'm curious as to why you, a self-proclaimed Kabalist, would have problems with Freemasonry, which, in Levi's words, is "The Grand Kabalistic Association"?

As a free human, I have a problem with [[what I have come to view as]] their infiltration and domination of society through the rule of government and staging covert revolutions to shake things up and playing both sides of the race. While painting themselves as rogue outsiders of British rule.

I believe there is an Aeon, An Epoch... a global age happening that is culminating from an ancient plan.
It is all perfect and I wouldn't change a thing.

Doesn't mean I need to go along with it and not say my piece as the viewpoint of someone who has "Seen the Light" but the true light, which I hadn't seen before.

I referred to myself as 'a Kabbalist' in past tense before... back 10 years ago when I was living with the person I spoke of. It was something I dedicated a lot of time to and it was something of interest and it made me worth talking to about things esoteric. And worth inviting in to be a part of "the mystical side" of the Lodge.
I wouldn't call myself a "kabbalist" now... but simply because I have come down a bit from that lofty place I was in. I'm a lot more boring now than I was back then.

I have problems with Kabbalah and Judaism now because of what I've learned about the Rothschilds and Zionism. And after coming across certain historical documents that list (by year) masses of Jewish ritual sacrifices and hearing stories of people raised in evil Kabbalist sects who practiced crazy horrible rituals I won't go into, I have my concerns with that whole current too.

I am a human with a heart and I see some things that nobody who can explain, will explain and there is a Conspiracy of Greed happening in the world.. but I see it having Occult origins and I see the plan of the Bavarian Illuminati still unfolding as the new Aeon is slowly but surely ushered in. I see it in the music industry. I see it all over the place in corporate logos and I believe they have successfully brainwashed the masses to finally go along with it and come to the food trough drooling for more. They won't have to be captured and taken against their will. Because it WILL BE their will.

Also I must add that I wouldn't call myself a Kabbalist anymore as much as a student of Kabbalah, or perhaps a self-proclaimed know-it-all on Kabbalah. I'm kidding, but I'm not kidding.

I know that those who know, don't say and those who say, don't know.

That is why I'm telling you that it is not "I" who is the One who knows, but I know I am part of the "I" which knows all. Therefore I now know all.

So "I" am truly a know-it-all.
It is all 1 thing. I is 1.

I am not trying to separate it into TWO things either. Which is what the true knowledge of God and Satan is.. it is the knowledge that it was all created by the one. Therefore it is all a shadow or a spark of the One.

Both poles are in all things.

But there is a trickster loose, running this physical realm. It is the world of fierce beauty.
This belief is ONLY re-inforced by reading more and more and more on MLO, ONA, Theological Satanism, and all of the Occult wisdom that is known to be contained on paper, or in digits on servers.

It's all there to see. There are two opposing forces.

Black Light was birthed from Mother Chaos Alongside White Light.
It is the annihilating force of the Universe, channeled into this world... it is here. to be felt and tasted and breathed in... just don't forget to exhale it out.

Originally posted by HardToStarboard
Speaking of ignoring, are you going to contact him? Who better to speak to his meaning in the video than himself?

Gimme a break. It's not on my list of "To Do's" for today... thank you very much.
Why don't you give the poor ol' guy a call. I'm sure he's really nice and isn't totally sick and tired of hearing about this every day.

Originally posted by LeonoraTenen

Originally posted by HardToStarboard
Speaking of ignoring, are you going to contact him? Who better to speak to his meaning in the video than himself?

Gimme a break. It's not on my list of "To Do's" for today... thank you very much.

Why don't you give the poor ol' guy a call. I'm sure he's really nice and isn't totally sick and tired of hearing about this every day.

Actually, I just found his email address and contacted him myself (not very fair of me to ask you to carry out my idea). If you want the email address to contact him as well, PM me and I'll forward it to you. In any event, I will either post his reply here (with his permission) or forward it directly to you should he not want it posted publicly.

The video has been used as fuel by so many and it should really be put to rest. I'm sure if I get a reply and he states he was, in fact, joking that it won't satisfy critics. And you know what? Rightfully so. If we masons are as evil as people claim then we deserve to be outed and shamed. I find the conspiracy ideas hard to swallow though.

If one really wants to attack the fraternity then attack it for things that are easily supported facts. My main sticking point with the brotherhood is what I view as relativism. If I ever demit and walk away it will be for that point as it can be much more dangerous than all the hyperbole posted in these forums. I still struggle with it from time to time.

Originally posted by LeonoraTenen
Besides, "picking a fight" you say?? What are you and your buddy doing RIGHT NOW?
You are ganging up on me, talking in posturing, mock-intimidating ways. All fighting traits. You hypocrite!

I can't speak for the other guy but I'm educating you on how you're arguments are based on assumption and legend. That's not picking a fight. That's not mokcing or posturing, or intimidating. That's setting you straight.

Grow a pair, dude.

Originally posted by LeonoraTenen


As a free human, I have a problem with [[what I have come to view as]] their infiltration and domination of society through the rule of government and staging covert revolutions to shake things up and playing both sides of the race. While painting themselves as rogue outsiders of British rule.

I doubt either of us is interested in a long, drawn-out debate about that. Suffice it to say that I disagree with your idea on this, and do not believe that the Masonic institution has infiltrated anything. I think the conspiracy theorists who pursue these lines give the fraternity far too much credit.

I believe there is an Aeon, An Epoch... a global age happening that is culminating from an ancient plan.
It is all perfect and I wouldn't change a thing.

I agree partially. I do believe that we are moving into a new age. I just don't believe it's an "ancient plan"....rather, I see it as a natural stage in evolution.

I have problems with Kabbalah and Judaism now because of what I've learned about the Rothschilds and Zionism. And after coming across certain historical documents that list (by year) masses of Jewish ritual sacrifices and hearing stories of people raised in evil Kabbalist sects who practiced crazy horrible rituals I won't go into, I have my concerns with that whole current too.

The problem here is that none of that stuff actually seems to be real. The Rothschilds are just people, and are slandered a lot because they're rich. Zionism is the belief that the Jews should have a homeland, which they probably should. And how could a Kabalist, if he's really a Kabalist, be evil? Why would a Kabalist want to engage in crazy, horrible rituals? The answer, of course, is that he probably wouldn't.

In brief, the Kabalah is simply a branch of philosophy that reconciles traditional Judaism with Plato. The Jewish Kabalists practice strict discipline and tend to be ascetically-minded. then you have folkslike me (and presumably your ex) who are Gentile Kabalists that do not practice Judaism, but approach the subject from a Hermetic and / or Christian perspective.

I am a human with a heart and I see some things that nobody who can explain, will explain and there is a Conspiracy of Greed happening in the world.. but I see it having Occult origins and I see the plan of the Bavarian Illuminati still unfolding as the new Aeon is slowly but surely ushered in.

Are you in favor, or opposed, to the plan of the Bavarian Illuminati? And how is it that their plan (the democratizaion of monarchical and Church-ruled Europe) is still relevant today, when all that has already been accomplished?

Originally posted by Masonic Light
I doubt either of us is interested in a long, drawn-out debate about that. Suffice it to say that I disagree with your idea on this, and do not believe that the Masonic institution has infiltrated anything. I think the conspiracy theorists who pursue these lines give the fraternity far too much credit.

I think it is difficult to separate "the fraternity" of Freemasonry from "the fraternity" of power in the world, when they do nothing but re-inforce this connection with their obsession with recruiting the most influential people into their ranks. Then to have such overtones of occultism, while "separate" (but intertwined) secret societies have so many similar motifs (two pillars, checkered floor). As you have yourself said, it has at least parallels to Kabbalah if not, going so far to say that it has Kabbalah as its foundation.

Originally posted by Masonic Light
The problem here is that none of that stuff actually seems to be real. The Rothschilds are just people, and are slandered a lot because they're rich.

Perhaps you don't know the history of the Rothschilds and how they tie in (historically) with the founding of the Bavarian Illuminati, the takeover of the English financial system (in 1815) and how they helped fund Hitler, creating World War II, which brings us to our next point. Israel and Zionism.

Originally posted by Masonic Light
Zionism is the belief that the Jews should have a homeland, which they probably should.

This homeland was created by David De Rothschild as a Jewish sanctuary from Hitler's regime. All the while they were funding him.

I'm sure you do realize how the Rockefellers (Standard Oil) and Prescott Bush (George Sr's Dad) are tied in with the Nazi concentration camps and were all charged with treason after World War II. My friend is a direct male descendent of Prescott Bush's side-man, whose grandson (with the same name) is still the Bush's purse-holder.
This man is the leading Thoroughbreeder of Horses and the Queen breeds her mares with his studs and stays with him when she comes to the USA.

The nepotistic despotism between the US, Britain, Rome, Nazi Germany, Israel, the Rothschilds and the Rockefellers is like an epic movie plot in reality. And this is just using history, without ANY theories.

Originally posted by Masonic Light
And how could a Kabalist, if he's really a Kabalist, be evil? Why would as Kabalist want to engage in crazy, horrible rituals? The answer, of course, is that he probably wouldn't.

I would like to reverse what you are saying to illustrate my point. It's not about a Kabbalist being evil.. it's about evil people becoming Kabbalists to wield more power. Look at the MLO and ONA. They are using Kabbalah as a basis for their dark form of Chaos Magick. Is that clear enough or do I need to make what I am saying clearer.

Originally posted by Masonic Light
Are you in favor, or opposed, to the plan of the Bavarian Illuminati? And how is it that their plan (the democratizaion of monarchical and Church-ruled Europe) is still relevant today, when all that has already been accomplished?

I need to go pick up food and eat, then I'm going to come back to address this point/question you made/asked.