Why do the nice guys go after the users?

Originally posted by adigregorio
reply to post by LilDudeissocool

 

What two way street?

People go after what they want.

That's it, super simple and super sweet. "Why do the nice guys go after the users?" Because it is what they want. Also, the "user" tends to be more attractive than the offended party. (To the person choosing)

I don't see how this is such a hard concept to grasp. But yes people go for what they want or are attracted to, it is true of everybody on this planet be they male or female, and has been true for all of history and prehistory....There is nothing else to it.

And all that we add or prescribe to is just part of that, like clothes we take them with us everywhere we go for comfort, necessity, to show of our colors, and off course for peacocking purposes. If there is such a thing as nice guy or nice girl like I said it must be in the minority, something like 5% or something. The rest is just semantics, viewpoints, perspectives, and games.

If anything this is just a different point of view that males and females have on things. Which is just nominal, that being a thing that is exactly as you call it. The suit does make the man.

I think it is one thing that got taken to far by people, mostly females and especially given the fact that as anybody knows or who has read a biology book or taken biology 101 it is a thing of options, and those options drive things. A difference in perspectives between male and females, basically being that yes its a game, and nice guys do finish last, after all how could something that is in a low percentage not finish last.

It just seems that the odds are against them, for they must find the 5% were as everybody must find the 95%. No doubt there confused, and being con fused is the worse way to fuse anything together. So anybody that tries that way, is destined to fail.

And the rest seems to be a game like I said, and especially among females which during there different periods through out there life, you know bad boy phase, good boy phase, all that junk. I suppose one can say they can afford to go trough all that, since after all as most people if not all know. That due to biology and nature it is almost impossible for a female to not find a male. In fact if there anywhere good looking they would have to work and try really hard at not finding someone to achieve that goal. Which is just another reason why its so hard to believe them when they say they cant find anybody. But even that has its shortcomings it's ups, and downs.... I suppose.

Really most times all they have to do is just hang around were dudes hang out and eventually something will happen, what that something is? or if it be good or bad? I don't think they care all that much, or as much as they say that they do. But time has told that in time they do.

And for dudes, it is all just a matter of things, situation in life, money, job, and a whole other host of things on a long list which I wont list because it would be to long. And the only option are the options given in that list, of which nice guy is a thing that is somewhere close to the bottom. Because as everybody knows contradictory to what the ladies say, it is not a thing high on there lists when they look for dudes or potential mates, a byplay it seems to be like I said earlier.

Most dudes know this because they can not afford to not know this, and it is driven in there heads everyday by many things, in daily life least of all the media. Most females do not especially if there really good looking, because they can afford to not know it and no doubt they to have it beaten in to there heads in daily life by many things most of all being the media.

And like everything else people do the things that they do because they can and want to. So ultimately in the end everybody goes for what they want, no matter the games they play to get to and reach those ends.

The real question is, why would someone want an guy (or girl) that was not interested in them?

Many reasons me thinks, I however can only assume and deduct on it. Because I have never had that urge, or if I had it was gone moments after I learned they were not really interested.

It is something one can only ask themselves, because it is a personal soul searching question. So maybe dude, and everybody else, should just ask themselves why they want somebody that is not interested in them?

If anything I bet you that the above question is at the root of the problems the op is musing about, and the answers are really not all that hard to come to.

Originally posted by adigregorio

Originally posted by curious7

Originally posted by adigregorio
Again, why would a guy or girl want to date a person un-interested in them?

Because the nice guys/girls wanting to date the uninterested person are those who were never thought of as attractive during childhood by peers and thus have severe low self esteem issues because of it. They therefore see someone or know someone personally that may have a trait or two similar or share an interest and then suddenly, find themselves attracted to, in love with and wanting to pursue a relationship with that other person.

That is an aweful large generalization there. How many nice guys + nice girls are out there? This paragraph sure looks like it is saying all of them have this issue, if this issue even exists in the first place.

Originally posted by curious7
Even if they know the other person is not interested, their self esteem is so bad that they like to think they can change that person's mind or impress them enough to end up dating said person.

This confuses me. Low self esteem would mean that the person thinks they are less than others, correct? Then how could they think they had the power to change someone "better than" them?

Really it all boils down to attractivness. We all know this, deep down. But for some reason there must be a dance, nice = not attractive. At least to the person that the nice one desires...

Lastly, if your hypothesis is correct. The nice person is not nice, they have a disorder and should seek therapy. Nice would imply "well grounded", not prone to manipulation. (Trying to change someone is not nice.)

You completely missed the point and prove you've never experienced what you quoted like I have throughout life.

Trying to change the person into liking them is bad yes but that's what happens when rejection after rejection screws you up.

I have forever been called "the nicest guy I've ever known/met/etc" because I really am. I'd never hurt anybody, physically or otherwise. It's just that in my head, my need to be liked and have a relationship made me see signs of mutual attraction that weren't there. That's why I've never had a real relationship in my life. Is it my fault? No, I tried but unfortunately until 10 months ago when I met someone online, no other woman has seemingly given me any attention in that way regardless of taking other people's advice that are similar to the advice in this and other threads (like the one authoer by mossme)

It seems to me like you've always been the popular kind of guy with women because you honestly don't sound like you have a clue what the less popular people have to put up with, including the loneliness, rejection and self-loathing because if others don't want them, why should they like themselves either?

Originally posted by curious7
You completely missed the point and prove you've never experienced what you quoted like I have throughout life.

This is un-true, due to my "interesting" lifestyle choices. My attractiveness level is quite low.

So yes, I have experienced being unattractive to someone I find attractive. I just move on, if they don't find me attractive then all well.

Originally posted by curious7
Trying to change the person into liking them is bad yes but...

If it is bad, and someone does it. They are not a "nice" anything.

Originally posted by curious7
...that's what happens when rejection after rejection screws you up.

If rejections "screw up" a person, then there is something more wrong than meets the eye. Rejection happens, a nice person would just release a tear and move on. They would not curse the "popular", whoever they are.

Originally posted by curious7
It seems to me like you've always been the popular kind of guy with women because you honestly don't sound like you have a clue what the less popular people have to put up with, including the loneliness, rejection and self-loathing because if others don't want them, why should they like themselves either?

This is quite humorus really. I wish you knew me, I really do. Then this statement would seem silly to you too. The only thing you get from other people is rejection. The "loneliness and self loathing" those are done by yourself. And, as I said before, that is un-healthy mentally. Regardless of your behavior, that would (to me) disqualify someone as being "nice to have a relationship with".

reply to post by calstorm


Nice guys often go after the girls who make the first move, and many opportunistic women do just that. Now, that said, there are plenty of nice guys who met nice girls the same way, but they don't catch your attention as much..

I'm what most of those who know me, consider a "nice guy". I've been burned often in my youth, but I got over it, and I'm now with my soulmate, who I've been married to for 8 years now. Not all of us let it get to us.

Originally posted by curious7

You completely missed the point and prove you've never experienced what you quoted like I have throughout life.

I actually suspect he has, as have I. It's just the reaction that is different. You are still crying, "Oh, poor me!" and he's saying, "Suck it up, bud!" He hasn't missed the point at all; you have.

I have forever been called "the nicest guy I've ever known/met/etc" because I really am. I'd never hurt anybody, physically or otherwise. It's just that in my head, my need to be liked and have a relationship made me see signs of mutual attraction that weren't there. That's why I've never had a real relationship in my life. Is it my fault? No,

Yes. It is your fault. "Nice guys" do not reproduce. It is not a survival characteristic. In fact, it's a sign of weakness. "Nice guys" are always "just friends, OK?" to the most desirable women because desirable women know they can do better. They don't need a needy guy, and you are one. If you could "never hurt anybody" then you could never protect anybody, either. Plus you just admitted you are delusional. You saw signs of affection "THAT WEREN'T THERE!" Hello! That's your fault. In any case, by projecting that you are the "nicest guy [anyone] has ever known" you immediately lower your value in the sexual marketplace. You "need to be liked and have a relationship"??? Wait, wait, wait right there. You "need" a mother. No woman, save your own mother, wants to be your mother. That's a liability.

I tried but unfortunately until 10 months ago when I met someone online, no other woman has seemingly given me any attention in that way regardless of taking other people's advice that are similar to the advice in this and other threads

That's more delusion. An online relationship is almost an oxymoron. It's not real. You could be dating a guy. Until you are in close proximity to each other, you won't really know what the other person is like. All you've got is words. Insofar as they can be seductive, great. Good luck to you. Really. But I suspect you are setting yourself up for another failure. The pics may not be real. This happens all the time.

It seems to me like you've always been the popular kind of guy with women because you honestly don't sound like you have a clue what the less popular people have to put up with, including the loneliness, rejection and self-loathing because if others don't want them, why should they like themselves either?

Actually, I agree with your last sentence. Why, indeed? I suppose there are a few people who have always been "popular," as you say who do not have a clue about how the emotionally impoverished feel, but most of us, including your target here and myself, know exactly what the issue is and have worked to change our attitudes to overcome it, which you have yet to do. Besides, why would anyone want to do that? It's like asking a good football player to fumble a lot so he can understand how poor players feel. It's non sensical to expect that.

You feel sorry for yourself. That is not an endearing characteristic either. It's another form of weakness that women do not appreciate. You are quick to blame others, as you have here, and you don't seem to understand the basic issues. Until you do I fear you are condemned to repeating this pattern of rejection. I'm reminded of the adage, "If you find yourself in a hole, stop digging."

I know some of this sucks and that you believe this also because you are resisting it. We're taught that "nice" = "good" and are puzzled when that strategy doesn't work. It's because the selfish gene doesn't care. Life is not nice and if you are goiing to have a successful relationship, you must dump this "Beta Male" personna that, quite obviously by your own admission, has resulted in you never having had a relationship. The world is not going to change to accommodate you. You must change to accommodate it.

Let me recommend a blog: The Alpha Personna. I made the link to a sub-section, but the entire blog is worth studying. My guess is you will be initially offended because, well, "nice guys" would be, but try to get past that and actually ponder what this guy is saying.

Because, right now, you're doing it all wrong.

Originally posted by schuyler
Let me recommend a blog: The Alpha Personna. I made the link to a sub-section, but the entire blog is worth studying. My guess is you will be initially offended because, well, "nice guys" would be, but try to get past that and actually ponder what this guy is saying.

That blog is hilarious! I love the by-line 'Living Like a Champ'. Not being a champ. It's a bit like those ads that tell women that they can have healthy 'looking' hair or the cream that gives the skin an 'appearance' of being wrinkle free.

Curious7 (not OP, all these threads are so alike), listen to Gazrok, he is the proverbial proof of the pudding. Work on being yourself, the rest will come naturally. Being an Alpha is a biological factor, and most modern women are perfectly able to protect themselves, or know how to dial 999, (or 911 if in the USA) should the need arise.

The best things come to those who wait

Originally posted by Biliverdin

That blog is hilarious! I love the by-line 'Living Like a Champ'. Not being a champ. It's a bit like those ads that tell women that they can have healthy 'looking' hair or the cream that gives the skin an 'appearance' of being wrinkle free.

Curious7 (not OP, all these threads are so alike), listen to Gazrok, he is the proverbial proof of the pudding. Work on being yourself, the rest will come naturally. Being an Alpha is a biological factor, and most modern women are perfectly able to protect themselves, or know how to dial 999, (or 911 if in the USA) should the need arise.

The best things come to those who wait

The blog is funny, I agree. And, for the record, his "I'll never marry" approach assures he won't have a really good long-lasting relationship either. He's in it for the short term. I also agree that most women are able to protect themselves, but you have to get a bit deeper than this 911 superficiality. We are all just so sophisticated these days that we like to forget that we are animals with emotions rooted in the Pleistocene.

This stuff is built-in. It's in our genes. You are absolutely right: It IS biology. We can't just turn it off. The thin veneer of "civilization" doesn't nullify this basic truth. Curious7's experiences thus far are a perfect example of the truth to that. He's an extremely nice guy who has completely failed. That's not an accident; it's cause and effect. His experience speaks the truth.

His approach doesn't work because nice guys finish last. He absolutely must change his approach.

One of the Alpha Persona's funniest posts is about the "sensitive man":

why dont woman like me – They just don’t understand how sweet and caring you are, man! Just be relentless with your candy and flower buying and one day, after she’s done having her fun riding all of the XXXXX she can stand, she’ll realize that you’ve always been there, holding her hair as she pukes. Your first time will be nothing like you imagined, and you’ll find out about 3 of the 10 affairs she's had during your marriage, but you have two kids and you love her, so you’ll stick it out. Good on ya, mate! Someone’s gotta take care of them when they get older.

Source

Originally posted by schuyler
This stuff is built-in. It's in our genes. You are absolutely right: It IS biology. We can't just turn it off. The thin veneer of "civilization" doesn't nullify this basic truth.

What is also biology, is women walking around in a state of semi-undress, largely because it is fashionable, I'm not name calling here, and hormonally rampant young men, quite understandably, finding their mental faculties clouded by being in an almost constant state of arousal. That also is biology, and sadly both parties are pretty ignorant of what the hell is going on. Civilisation doesn't nullify that either. What is not a problem, is ALL women walking around naked, or ALL women walking around fully covered. It's the switch and turn that confuses you poor fellas.

Originally posted by schuyler
Curious7's experiences thus far are a perfect example of the truth to that. He's an extremely nice guy who has completely failed. That's not an accident; it's cause and effect. His experience speaks the truth.

Pretending to be something he isn't, is not going to help either. Possibly in the short-term to scratch that itch, but in the long run. No. By all means work on the confidence, but leave the games to the players. Find other distractions.

Originally posted by schuyler
His approach doesn't work because nice guys finish last. He absolutely must change his approach.

One of the Alpha Persona's funniest posts is about the "sensitive man":

why dont woman like me – They just don’t understand how sweet and caring you are, man! Just be relentless with your candy and flower buying and one day, after she’s done having her fun riding all of the XXXXX she can stand, she’ll realize that you’ve always been there, holding her hair as she pukes. Your first time will be nothing like you imagined, and you’ll find out about 3 of the 10 affairs she's had during your marriage, but you have two kids and you love her, so you’ll stick it out. Good on ya, mate! Someone’s gotta take care of them when they get older.

Alpha Persona, is not an Alpha, he is Beta pretending he is an Alpha. The giveaway is the putting others down. That is not the characteristic of the natural Alpha... He is a bully. Go watch some apes. Tell me I'm wrong. Mr Alpha Persona is going to wake up one day and realise just what a lonely bitter and twisted little twat that he is, or end up on charges because the 'women' that he can con into sleeping with him, will by cause and effect, necessarily get younger and younger until it becomes a criminal act. Seen it happen waaayyy too many times.

On the other hand...look at Mr Gazrok there. He definately seems to have it made and is gleefully enjoying what patience brought him.

Thanks for the compliments. I definitely learned the hard way, and time is the best teacher.

A leopard can't change its spots (so pretending to be an alpha will just throw off a weird vibe to gals), but (OP) you can change your outlook and your confidence. My advice, find someone you have something in common with, and don't get so hung up on the looks (as at that age, the gals with the looks are generally pretty vapid anyhow...always exceptions, and I've known many, but just saying...) (not saying to get a dog either, just don't hold out for the top cheerleader, if you know what I mean).

Even if a short term relationship (not saying you gotta marry this person or anything, or any kind of commitment), this one positive experience could be what you need to feel desirable, and confident, and make you lose the stink of loserdom. (and women will smell that musk a MILE away, and run in the opposite direction). You don't have to say it, but if you're a virgin, then yeah, losing that is going to go a LONG way towards helping you out here. Sounds hard to believe, but it is what it is.

What is also biology, is women walking around in a state of semi-undress, largely because it is fashionable,

That's women wanting to be noticed and admired.. They want the attention they get, of course. Someone much wiser than me once said, women don't dress to impress men, they dress to impress other women, and that person was spot on.

And you can still be the nice guy, without being a doormat. When you get that first boost of confidence, embrace it. Confidence is like an aphrodisiac. (and it's different than cockiness, so know the difference). If you want some less public advice, feel free to U2U me, as there's a lot I don't often share here on the public board. And, as with any advice, feel free to take it or leave it.

Originally posted by Gazrok
That's women wanting to be noticed and admired..

They want the attention they get, of course. Someone much wiser than me once said, women don't dress to impress men, they dress to impress other women, and that person was spot on.

I'll agree to an extent, and admittedly most men really don't care what a woman is wearing, or not wearing for that matter, but the less women wear, it is slightly more about competeing with other women, than impressing them. Much the same as the trophy girlfriend/wife is more about competeing with other men. The woman being little more than an accessory to the lifestyle that they wish to project.

reply to post by Biliverdin


Gazrok hasn't told us much, but he fits the pattern. He started out getting burned a few times, wised up, got over it (a crucial point) and is now happy. That mirrors my own experience as well. It's just that curious7 is at the starting end of this journey, in the midst of the burned phase, and rather than examining his own behavior for a change in approach, is still whining about the unfairness of it all. That's the pathetic part and, like the rest of his overt behaviors, has the opposite effect of what he wants. From an objective standpoint, it's the wrong end of the magnet to present towards women, that is, unless you want to repel them.

Alpha Persona went through exactly the same thing as Gazrok, myself, and curious7. He managed to change his behavior and became much more successful as a result. He may be an insufferable prig, but he understands the selfish gene theory. I do not advocate his ends at all. I think that is a short sighted mistake on his part , short term gains for a long term loss, But I do see that his means works. I would hope that curious7 could do would be to change his means to get to a different end, that of a stable long-term relationship, or at least to one that taught him what a relationship is all about.

I'm in a position where I've gone through this, my kids have gone through this, and now my oldest grandkid is about to go through this. I think I have some perspective here. People can disagree with me if they want, but as far as my advice, take it or leave it.

Edit to add: Must have been typing at the same time Gazrok was. I didn't see that his last phrase was the same as mine. Great minds....

reply to post by schuyler


I think we've simply been through similar experiences, and reached the light at the end of the tunnel. As you stated, the guy's gotta change his outlook, or it's going to just eat him up inside.

All through High School, I was the shoulder the hot gals cried on, firmly entrenched in the "friend zone". Now later, in my senior year, I did get with a shy, quiet girl (who was actually quite cute, but not popular), and it did amazing things for my confidence. It was a brief relationship (that's a whole different story), but it was a real eye-opener, and the start of me getting over that whole "woe is me" outlook. So, good luck friend.

reply to post by schuyler


See, here's the thing.

I haven't changed a damn thing about my personality but yet have still managed to (finally) have the interest of a damn good woman so I'm not sure it's a matter of me changing anything because why should I change who I am and what made me the man I am today just to get more women?

To me, that's counter-productive and fake. I willingly threw away a long-term friendship with a very good friend because he became a total douche and far away from what brought us together as friends.

I may sound like I'm "whining" to some of you but honestly, until this thing is set in stone and becomes a fully fledged relationship, I'm enjoying it anyway and just recalling what I've felt over the 18 years since I first became interested in girls in that way.

Again to reiterate, the woman I've fallen for and who has fallen for me did so because of who I've been since birth so I don't need to change a damn thing.

It's other people being shallow, ignorant and idiotic, that's the real problem.

Originally posted by curious7
reply to post by schuyler

 

See, here's the thing.

I haven't changed a damn thing about my personality but yet have still managed to (finally) have the interest of a damn good woman so I'm not sure it's a matter of me changing anything because why should I change who I am and what made me the man I am today just to get more women?

Because you said you needed it. Refer to your own previous post.

To me, that's counter-productive and fake. I willingly threw away a long-term friendship with a very good friend because he became a total douche and far away from what brought us together as friends.

So? Irrelevant to the current topic.

I may sound like I'm "whining" to some of you but honestly, until this thing is set in stone and becomes a fully fledged relationship, I'm enjoying it anyway and just recalling what I've felt over the 18 years since I first became interested in girls in that way.

Didn't you say this was an online relationship? Have you ever met her in person?

It's other people being shallow, ignorant and idiotic, that's the real problem.

Sure it is, bud. You are always right. Good luck to you anyway.

Originally posted by curious7
...why should I change who I am and what made me the man I am today just to get more women?

Well, let's remember "change" is not always a bad thing.

If you are happy (doesn't sound like it to me) with who you are, then don't change. If you are un-happy, then how come everyone else must change but you?

(By must I mean: Girls should date the nice guy instead (change) Guys should be nicer (change) )

It does not sound like whining to me. It sounds like a mindset unwilling to accept that they may be at fault.

Originally posted by curious7
It's other people being shallow, ignorant and idiotic, that's the real problem.

Not a very "nice" thing to say...

This is so hypocritical.

No one has to change how they are to be with you. If you think some one is shallow, hey THAT'S just how they are. Why should they change?

It's called acceptance, accept that some people have different interests when it comes to relationships.

I don't like certain things in certain people, but I don't get into a relationship with them and ask them to CHANGE that.

By all means, if you don't like certain aspects in people, then do not date/befriend them. It's that simple.

Apparently all of you here are on the good side. Nothing is wrong with you.

To others you might be who you are opposing.

So just keep that in mind.

It is a two way street after all. If you don't expect some one asking/wanting you to change, then don't ask/want some one else to do it either. To you they maybe shallow, aholes and the rest of it, but to them they are just being themselves, too.

No one here is asking anyone else to "change their personality." If that's what you get out of this discussion, I beleive you have missed the issue. The issue here is changing a set of behaviors that has absolutely been proven to not work. You can learn new behaviors without changing your basic personality in the same way you can learn a new short cut route to the grocery store. It's not that the old route is wrong, it's just that the new route is more efficient. In the same vein learning a new skill does not mean changing your personality. Because you now know how to weld, does that mean you have a changed personality? Of course not. It's just that you have a new skill to apply to problems in your life. You are now more versatile.

That doesn't mean you can't change your viewpoint, which is also not a personality-changing event. As you gain new experiences as a result of your new skills, you may very well see the world in a different light. There's nothing wrong with that either. It's called "getting an education" or "growing up."

I get the distinct impression that certain people are taking the advice presented here so personally that they believe it is meant to change the very essence of who they are, which is precious to them, immutable because it represents the very core of their being.

Although your devotion to your own ego may be an issue in some other context, that's not what we are saying at all. We're just saying that if you learn a new skill set you will be more successful at the things you say you profess to desire. If you don't believe it, then you can continue in your old behavior patterns and reap the results. The bottom line is really this:

If you quit acting like a dimwit, you'll score more.

reply to post by schuyler


So dumb down even more than I have before and hide my genius level IQ so as to fit in with the world around me?

Isn't that what I've been doing since my mid teens anyway?

That's what I'm taking from your final statement.

reply to post by curious7


If that is what you gleaned from this conversation, I would have to doubt that genius level IQ thing.

I don't recall seeing anyone state that a person has to be of low intelligence (other than you, again not very nice) to get a "hot" (That's what this is about) girl.

What is so hard to understand about being unattractive to a prospective gal? A better question, how do you treat the girls you find unattractive when they come sniffing around you?

I am begining to think this is a brick wall. Although, time should give you the skills we are talking about in here. For with time comes experience.

Originally posted by Gazrok
All through High School, I was the shoulder the hot gals cried on, firmly entrenched in the "friend zone". Now later, in my senior year, I did get with a shy, quiet girl (who was actually quite cute, but not popular), and it did amazing things for my confidence.

There are plenty of cute girls who would be 'hot' if they put it on display the way the 'popular' girls do. They choose not to, because being appreciated for their looks alone is not their priority. The majority of girls, and women, have perfectly nice bodies, which come in all different shapes and sizes, they simply realise that there is more to life than being popular to a very narrow group of males, selling yourself short, and losing all hope of ever being taken seriously in the 'real world'. And often have brothers or other male relatives and know precisely what they say about those girls who put it on a plate for the whole world to see.

Your mistake, and many others, is allowing yourself to be used as the shoulder to cry on, in the hope that you might get some gratitude action, instead of looking a little further than the end of your nose towards the girl who you actually have something in common with, and who can talk about things other than herself. You didn't get burned, you failed in trying to take advantage. As adigre-what-do-you-ma-call-it says, that isn't any nicer than what she was doing, in fact, it's a little worse.

Look up some of those 'popular' girls, see what they are doing now that they can't trade on their looks so much, if they're not already married, they're most likely trying to re-edit their history in the hope that someone will take them on before it all heads south, because they don't have the skill-set to provide for themselves. On the otherhand, I bet that quiet cute girl is pretty much established in her own right and definately doesn't need some feller to come along and validate her or support her, and therefore can pick and choose from a whole plethora of potential mates. Perhaps, if you had been a real friend to those 'hot' girls who came to you for some support, and told them what guys really thought of her, and why they used her, instead of just thinking you might cop some while her defenses were down, then things might just have taken a different turn.