Why my mind is closing towards Capitalism

Originally posted by JimmyNeutron
And how do you figure that capitalism is forced at the point of a gun?

George Washington and the continental army didn't use flowers and rainbows to fight for their freedom.

The thing is that loyalists to the Crown made up about 15-20% of the colonists. These fought against the continental army beside the red coats. They were in their homeland and didn't want the new system but were forced at gunpoint to accept the new system or leave.

During Washington's first term as president a tax was placed on whiskey which brought about the Whiskey Rebellion. The argument was that:

A whiskey tax would make western farmers less competitive with eastern grain producers.

With 15,000 militia provided by the governors of Virginia, Maryland, New Jersey, and Pennsylvania, Washington rode at the head of an army to suppress the insurgency.

Here is the quintessential forefather showing he has no problem pointing his guns at the citizens. Their goal was free markets? I don't think so.

reply to post by Skyfloating


You are happy because you were able to play the system, whether its america, or the entire world.. a growing majority of people, who are hard working individuals cannot play the system enough to get ahead and be happy.. what will happen when those people, the ones who grow your food and make your toys, boycott their masters and revolt... realizing that they are not experiencing the fruits of their labor.. and that they collectively would be better off if a change occurred...

the capitalists at the top who own and control everything, they hate the parasites... but they are vicious predators unlike anything this earth has ever seen.. and large beasts like that, are full of parasites...

we are all children on this earth... no matter how grown up your imagination makes you feel...

did you create everything you have ever used in your life? could you have lived without the existence of all others?

and your randian bull#snip is the worst... her philosophies would be favored by the incarnate devil,,, her doctrine would provide the perfect hellscape.

Originally posted by colin42
unhappy people become capitalists because they belive freedom is measured by how much they own and they want to own everything.

Socialists believe that capitalists are driven by greed. They believe greed leads to gain.
Because they believe this, they can never make any money, simply because they dont know that greed is not a way to make money. Free Market enthusiasts are actually driven by the desire to produce, manufacture, create and give. Without giving to society, no money is to be made. Income becomes a side-effect of providing valuable services to people.

A socialist is someone who is profoundly uninformed about how money works, how society works and how reality works.

Many long term prisoners feel the same way. I suppose if you do not want to reform the prisoner then a prison that makes one feel it is not a prison would be the aim of the wardens.

I guess you couldnt imagine someone simply being happy. You insist that we live in a prison and that all other people live in the same prison. Like I predicted when talking about the psychological projection of Infants.

As I said freedom does not exist yet we all try to acheive it.

Thats your owns subjective view you wish to generalize and impose onto me.

Originally posted by User8911

Originally posted by JimmyNeutron

Originally posted by ANOK

Why should someone get rich off my labour?

Because you don't have the balls to take a risk with your capital in exchange for some expectation of reward. So, you accept being a wage slave.
Start your own business in something you can be competitive at and call me in the morning.

Ok so where is my 500 000$ so I can start my own business?

I don't know you or your background, but I suspect you have never grown and managed a successful business before... No offense intended, but if not, $500k would be a wasted investment for you. Show you can grow a $5000/year business, Walk before you run.

Oh, you got yours from people you know? I guess that's just socialism on a smaller scale, lucky for you!

And you probably know how to be competitive since you don't mind the idea of getting rich on others labor.

It doesn't mainly require skill or intelligence to start a company and become a successful corporation.
You just need a starting investment, immoral values and a giant ego.

Too bad you just won't understand what I say because, those are the disgusting values that you live by.

Nope - not even close! Nobody has ever given me a dime... And nobody is forcing you to work for someone else... You can choose to move into the woods and graze off the land, but that requires a heck of a lot more work than being a wage slave. Or you can stop your insane whining about how unfair things are and how corrupt my values are and how disgusting I am. The truth is, I earned the capital to invest through my labor. I used both the capital I saved and the skills I learned to step away from being a wage slave. I work harder, longer hours than any of my employees. I unapologetically put up with governmental crap and provide a place where my team can work and be successful and excel based on effort and ability. If they so desire, they have the freedom and ability to save their money to use as capital and use the skills they learned and honed on the job at my expense to go out and start their own freedom adventure.


Proverbs - If a man will not work, let him not eat.

Originally posted by ImaFungi
You are happy because you were able to play the system, whether its america, or the entire world..

My happiness has nothing to do with money. Only socialists are continually preoccupied with money...especially other peoples.

a growing majority of people, who are hard working individuals cannot play the system enough to get ahead and be happy.. what will happen when those people, the ones who grow your food and make your toys, boycott their masters and revolt... realizing that they are not experiencing the fruits of their labor.. and that they collectively would be better off if a change occurred...

Every totalitarian tyrant would like to propose how we are "collectively better off". History shows that people are best off when they are left to decide for themselves.

Socialism is forced altruism, which is no altruism at all but rather spoils the human trait of altruism.

the capitalists at the top who own and control everything, they hate the parasites... but they are vicious predators unlike anything this earth has ever seen.. and large beasts like that, are full of parasites...

Hitler said the same thing about Bankers (Jews), hence his national-socialist programs.

did you create everything you have ever used in your life? could you have lived without the existence of all others?

A capitalists money usually supports not only themselves but several others (families, employees). You will have noticed that a socialist cannot support as many people because he does not have the means to.

and your randian bull#snip is the worst... her philosophies would be favored by the incarnate devil,,, her doctrine would provide the perfect hellscape

If you were voted into office your anger would call for censorship of my ideals.

reply to post by Skyfloating

Socialists believe that capitalists are driven by greed. They believe greed leads to gain.
Because they believe this, they can never make any money, simply because they dont know that greed is not a way to make money. Free Market enthusiasts are actually driven by the desire to produce, manufacture, create and give. Without giving to society, no money is to be made. Income becomes a side-effect of providing valuable services to people.

I really do not see how you can catergorise a wide range of people the way you do. Greed in itself is not evil. Unfettered greed is the roote of all evil. Greed has many faces.

Remember I do not believe freedom exists and that includes the concept of a free market. Corperations try very hard to control the market they are in and then expand into other markets. Their only concern is their bottom line and continued support from investors. If they really believed in giving Dell would not trade from Poland they would still be in Ireland employing the people that helped built the company.

A socialist is someone who is profoundly uninformed about how money works, how society works and how reality works.

Again putting people into boxs as you have above with that sweeping statement takes this discussion nowhere. I could claim bankers have shown they are profoundly uniformed about how money works and we have a shining example of that dont we.

I guess you couldnt imagine someone simply being happy. You insist that we live in a prison and that all other people live in the same prison. Like I predicted when talking about the psychological projection of Infants.

I really cannot believe you do not realise that the prison represents the societies we are locked into. That choice within that society is controlled by those that hold the keys. I have seen the infant ploy before. Water of a ducks back I'm afraid.

Thats your owns subjective view you wish to generalize and impose onto me.

You can choose to accept or reject my view that freedom does not exist. I have not made any demands on you. I can see the walls society builds, you cannot its a matter of perception and experience and it is this you seem unable to grasp.

Neither is right or wrong and if we do not try to lock each other into boxes maybe we could move forwards instead of rattling our cages and shouting but never moving on

Originally posted by User8911

Originally posted by JimmyNeutron
Wow... Really? In no way did Jesus promote what you are promoting. Have you ever heard about the Kingdom of God? There is One King. He rules. He is Lord - you are not. How is that socialist?

1. Love the Lord your God with all your mind, soul, body, and spirit - this equals obedience (not in the legalistic sense).
2. Love your neighbor as yourself.

If you are following #2 - trying to foist your views off on me - some of you would like to do it at the point of a gun - you are saying that you would like me to treat you the same way.

Hmmm... Again not very warm and fuzzy is it!

Don't bastardize Jesus message to suit your own twisted ideology.

Ok lol, where to start...
God gave us free will, yes he is king but we still have free will.
Socialists can have a leader a king, that doesn't mean the rest don't have free will.

That isn't socialism!

Just because your parents gave you life doesn't mean you have to obey them if they don't treat you with respect.

Look at the 5th commandment - It gives no qualification to the command nor does it provide an age range for when you don't have to do it anymore, nor whether or not the parents deserve respect, it merely lays the burden of giving respect on the children.

and just like any other authority in your life - yes, you have to obey them while you are in their house and under their care. Oh yeah, unless you live in a socialist state where the government thinks it owns your children.

"some of you would like to do it at the point of a gun" ...and you're the one talking about twisting ideologies?

Read the following post from one of your socialist comrades:
www.abovetopsecret.com...

You just said the line that proves Jesus was a socialist : "Love your neighbor as yourself"

Really? In Jesus economy I have free will to give or not give. Yes, I will eternally be held accountable for how I stewarded the resources He provided to me. However, it is my choice to be obedient or not. God love's a cheerful giver.

I in no way implied or stated that Jesus did/does not care for the well being of people. His expectation is that His followers will CHOOSE to do that IF they believe in Him as Lord and Savior. And we could really get into a discussion on this one and I think it would be fun but not really a topic for this thread.

Do I like to be controlled, to be capitalized, to be manipulated with false scarcity, to be hungry, to have no home?
Well I don't and I will not do this to my "neighbor".

That is so awesome... I'm glad you choose to do that. The operative word is choose - using your own free will. Socialism takes that choice away.

Don't blind yourself thinking Jesus could of been a capitalist, I'm not twisting anything. I'm just observing the obvious.

Jesus had no economic axe to grind. Although my economic decisions are driven by my belief in Him as my Savior, I don't see Him as either a socialist, capitalist, or whatever flavor of government you want to try and associate Him with. The reality is that He is outside the realm of this discussion and it is offensive to more than just Christians for socialists to drag Him into the argument as some sort of trump card.

Originally posted by colin42
reply to post by JimmyNeutron

 

Please explain the irony. Is it that we are dependant on corperations? That small business cannot compete with corperations or that most of the corperations outsourced the work of those protesting?

If you don't get it by looking at the picture, you still won't be able to grasp it no matter how I try to simplify it.

Originally posted by colin42
reply to post by JimmyNeutron

 

Can I ask why you limit the deaths caused by either doctrine to wars?Bopal 8000 deaths in 3 days. Deaths and sickness still goes on today as does the pollution

So why not look at the death and carnage caused by corperations for profit of a few?

I don't limit it to wars if you read the methodology a little more closely. And by trying to redirect the conversation to the failures of corporatism you attempt to ignore or minimize the sinister nature of socialism as a philosophy.

Originally posted by JimmyNeutron

Originally posted by colin42
reply to post by JimmyNeutron

 

Please explain the irony. Is it that we are dependant on corperations? That small business cannot compete with corperations or that most of the corperations outsourced the work of those protesting?

If you don't get it by looking at the picture, you still won't be able to grasp it no matter how I try to simplify it.

Ah I see. You cannot explain it. Fair enough so maybe it is you that does not understand the irony or the picture.

Originally posted by colin42

No. I have been reading it. To me it is about people trying to justify their beliefs about what doctrine works when in reality none do.

As I said freedom does not exist yet we all try to acheive it.

Although I missed where you said this before, I completely agree with both your assessment of this thread and I also agree with you that whatever freedom we think we perceive is an illusion.

However, I still bang the drum that socialism doesn't work because of the fanatical adherents in this forum that push a bigger lie than the one we are living (at least here in the United States).

reply to post by JimmyNeutron

I don't limit it to wars if you read the methodology a little more closely. And by trying to redirect the conversation to the failures of corporatism you attempt to ignore or minimize the sinister nature of socialism as a philosophy.

So what part of Bopal is down to socialism as a philosophy? War is not the only cause of death and suffering in this world. Bopal not the only example.

You also have taken for granted that I believe socialism is corrrect. I hold anyone who puts their own Ideology above the needs and desires of others with the same mistrust. No personal belief should out weigh the needs of others. Its a matter of balance. Just enough greed, just enough benevolence and the wisdom to judge it.

You try to justify your ideology by showing who has killed the most. I look at your ideologies and add both sums together and that is the true cost.

Originally posted by daskakik

Originally posted by JimmyNeutron
And how do you figure that capitalism is forced at the point of a gun?

George Washington and the continental army didn't use flowers and rainbows to fight for their freedom.

Indeed not... But I think your definition of freedom is a bit fuzzy. We can discuss the causes of the US Revolutionary War and the wrongs committed during and after it. But suffice it to say that you have cherry picked an argument that is not supported in fact.

Revolutionary War was inherently about replacing monarchism with republicanism (I don't find capitalism anywhere in here). In fact, the early United States implemented many of the same economic policies that were already in place. It was a political cleansing if you will... These people were not killed, they were relocated. I'm not saying it was very nice, but to call it capitalism at the point of a gun is ludicrous.

Here is the quintessential forefather showing he has no problem pointing his guns at the citizens. Their goal was free markets? I don't think so.

I'm pretty sure I didn't say that it was... What's your point?

reply to post by JimmyNeutron
Star for the first part.

Fanatical adherents to any ideology are always wrong. If we could cherry pick every good thing from every ideology I am convinced we would still have a system that does not work and the more globalised this world becomes the more broken become the systems.

Originally posted by colin42
reply to post by JimmyNeutron

 

I don't limit it to wars if you read the methodology a little more closely. And by trying to redirect the conversation to the failures of corporatism you attempt to ignore or minimize the sinister nature of socialism as a philosophy.

So what part of Bopal is down to socialism as a philosophy? War is not the only cause of death and suffering in this world. Bopal not the only example.

I never said anything about Bhopal... What's your point?

You also have taken for granted that I believe socialism is corrrect. I hold anyone who puts their own Ideology above the needs and desires of others with the same mistrust.

This is fuzzy circular logic... Everyone has their own selfish wants and desires and pursues them to the detriment of others at some point. Whether it is felt physically or emotionally the effect is the same. So, to create a system that encapsulates/enforces your ideas about what constitutes the greater good for each person is mutually exclusive to your intent. To enforce your view is to necessarily trample on the needs, desires, and rights of someone else.

Now, if you want to operate in the world we currently are experiencing, then we may have a point of discussion.

You try to justify your ideology by showing who has killed the most. I look at your ideologies and add both sums together and that is the true cost.

I'm not trying to justify anything... I've already agreed with you that freedom is an illusion. There are just some lies that are more heinous than others. Socialism happens to be a cancer that I don't want to see spread. Not because the theory is bad on the surface. It looks really good and somewhat attractive if you care for your fellow man at all. However, poke at it just a little and a stinking rotting corpse falls out.

The United States economic/political system is indefensible and I would dearly like to see it change. So, again, I'm not justifying anything.

reply to post by Skyfloating


all my anger and attitude implies is that I believe all humans deserve the right to live life on this planet....

there are systems in place that makes it hard for a majority of people to do so, while a minority of people benefit from that fact immensely,,to an unnecessary extreme in some cases.... who am i to say a person doesn't earn the money they made gambling on wars and works of others, i am noone and nothing to say that...

the extreme success of the minority depends on the extreme failing of many... it is competition,, but between david and goliath..

what are some reasons why you wouldn't want to see a change in consciousness and systems to promote quality life and work for all?

reply to post by Skyfloating


Sky, I agree with you completely.

These "capitalist socialists" who to this day use everything that capitalism has to offer, yet they continuously try to attack capitalism and try to supplant it with the plague that is socialism and communism.

You will see them in the streets with ipods, the latest cellphones with 4G technology, fancy laptops, and in general the latest technology brought to you by CAPITALISM, yet they would blame capitalism for every problem in the world...

NONE of these people has seen or experienced what their ideologies have done to countries which have embraced their ideas, yet they would rather be blind to the facts that history can show them, or they just outright try to rewrite history.

Their constant denial that socialism/communism has ever been tried proves every one of them is a sociopath. They even deny what people who have experienced socialism/communism have to tell them, and would rather see the world under a socialist dictatorship with hundreds of millions dead, and millions imprisoned, than to accept the fact that their ideologies are a blight on humanity.

Corpocratism is also a blight on humanity, but it has NOTHING to do with capitalism/aka a FREE MARKET. But socialists/communists would use the attrocities committed by corpocratism, fascism, and other socialist and communist ideologies, but instead they put the blame on capitalism because some leftwinger told them so in a book or on a video...

reply to post by colin42


Agreed... Not this side of Jesus reign, anyway.

Originally posted by ImaFungi
reply to post by Skyfloating

 

all my anger and attitude implies is that I believe all humans deserve the right to live life on this planet....

there are systems in place that makes it hard for a majority of people to do so, while a minority of people benefit from that fact immensely,,to an unnecessary extreme in some cases.... who am i to say a person doesn't earn the money they made gambling on wars and works of others, i am noone and nothing to say that...

the extreme success of the minority depends on the extreme failing of many... it is competition,, but between david and goliath..

what are some reasons why you wouldn't want to see a change in consciousness and systems to promote quality life and work for all?

I think someone would have to be pretty callous to not want these things. The problem is how to go about it without putting in place something even worse. And before anyone chimes in with "socialism is the answer" let me preempt them - Socialism is a lie that leads to mass pain and suffering...

reply to post by JimmyNeutron


yes,, but the people like electric universe, who are saying all these people with technology using all the things capitalism has brought them.... my argument it to the majority of people in the world how cannot find food for their stomachs they would take a crap on a 4g phone and the newer more expensive one that comes out next week..

the priorities should be life... why are we doing anything that is not pertaining to creating food, im sure alot of poor wouldn't mind working on farms, multiply that the world around, and wouldn't there be more food, and wouldn't the food in the worlds stores decrease in price, and wouldn't everyone be fed, and live? and wouldnt the transhuman progressives still get fed and embrace their passionate genius and innovative abilities... in a happier more harmonious world?