Why my mind is closing towards Capitalism

Originally posted by Skyfloating
Libertarian socialism is an oxymoron. Liberty means that I can decide what to do with my money. Socialism means that you decide what happens with my money.

I see nothing in the definition of liberty about money.

Originally posted by ANOK
It is in complete contrast to socialism, where the people have the power, not the state.

How is this "people power" expressed? Does everyone have a vote? If so, that is considered a true democracy and as de Toqueville put it, everyone is subject to the tyranny of the majority. If not, then some are more equal than others and are in the business of deciding what others should or should not have. That is not socialism as you are propagandizing it either.What a bunch of clap trap. There is NO INSTANCE where socialism is really socialism. It may be a component of some other system, but it cannot exist in a pure state. In the same manner that anarchy may exist in the short term, but the need for order of some kind will spontaneously generate some form of centralized government. So it is with socialism.

Don't you see the flaws in your logic or are you too ideologically blind to see the problem?

Originally posted by Leo Strauss
reply to post by Shred

 

So are communities and families in Norway completely destroyed by socialism and high taxes? I think not.
You just have to say no to the fear and be of service and help your brothers and sisters.

And if my idea of help doesn't agree with your idea???

Originally posted by JimmyNeutron
And if my idea of help doesn't agree with your idea???

Does your idea of taxes agree with the IRS? Probably not but there you are still defending that system.

Originally posted by ANOK

Why should someone get rich off my labour?

Because you don't have the balls to take a risk with your capital in exchange for some expectation of reward. So, you accept being a wage slave. Start your own business in something you can be competitive at and call me in the morning. Stop grovelling at the feet of the hated capitalist pigs who are "stealing" from you.

All of life can be reduced to a risk/reward decision. We as humans do so subconsciously every day, in every decision we make.

To me, and many others on this thread, the "rewards - if you can call them that" of socialism are FAR outweighed by the risks inherent in its implementation. Historically backed up!

If you don't learn from history, you are doomed to repeat it. Count me out thanks!

Originally posted by Tea4One
I see nothing in the definition of liberty about money.

a. The condition of being free from restriction or control. b. The right and power to act, believe, or express oneself in a manner of one's own choosing.

By the definition you linked, being able to do what I like with my money is "the condition of being free from restriction or control". Make sense?

Originally posted by JimmyNeutron

Originally posted by ANOK

Why should someone get rich off my labour?

Because you don't have the balls to take a risk with your capital in exchange for some expectation of reward. So, you accept being a wage slave.
Start your own business in something you can be competitive at and call me in the morning.

Ok so where is my 500 000$ so I can start my own business?
Oh, you got yours from people you know? I guess that's just socialism on a smaller scale, lucky for you!

And you probably know how to be competitive since you don't mind the idea of getting rich on others labor.

It doesn't mainly require skill or intelligence to start a company and become a successful corporation.
You just need a starting investment, immoral values and a giant ego.

Too bad you just won't understand what I say because, those are the disgusting values that you live by.

Originally posted by JimmyNeutron
Wow... Really? In no way did Jesus promote what you are promoting. Have you ever heard about the Kingdom of God? There is One King. He rules. He is Lord - you are not. How is that socialist?

1. Love the Lord your God with all your mind, soul, body, and spirit - this equals obedience (not in the legalistic sense).
2. Love your neighbor as yourself.

If you are following #2 - trying to foist your views off on me - some of you would like to do it at the point of a gun - you are saying that you would like me to treat you the same way.

Hmmm... Again not very warm and fuzzy is it!

Don't bastardize Jesus message to suit your own twisted ideology.

Ok lol, where to start...
God gave us free will, yes he is king but we still have free will.
Socialists can have a leader a king, that doesn't mean the rest don't have free will.

Just because your parents gave you life doesn't mean you have to obey them if they don't treat you with respect.

"some of you would like to do it at the point of a gun" ...and you're the one talking about twisting ideologies?

You just said the line that proves Jesus was a socialist : "Love your neighbor as yourself"
Do I like to be controlled, to be capitalized, to be manipulated with false scarcity, to be hungry, to have no home?
Well I don't and I will not do this to my "neighbor".

Don't blind yourself thinking Jesus could of been a capitalist, I'm not twisting anything. I'm just observing the obvious.

reply to post by Skyfloating
In prison you work for a small 'wage' and with the money earned you can buy luxury's. Tobacco, tooth paste, soap. You are free to spend your money on anything you like in the shop. You are still in prison and you are still a prisoner.

The shop only stocks what the warden allows.

I dont see that choice in how you spend money = freedom/ free from control

Money is actually another lock on your cell. Please dont ask me what to put in its place as I havn't got a scooby

Freedom does not exist.

Originally posted by Skyfloating

Oh the irony. A picture is worth a thousand words... Well done!

ROFLMAO.

Originally posted by ANOK

Originally posted by Skyfloating

Thats true. Scandinavians are extremely efficient. We can learn plenty from them.

I think the main difference is they are not spending their tax dollars on spreading capitalist interests around the world like the US and UK are doing.

This is your tax dollars...

Total Cost of Wars Since 2001 $1,298,654,565,547

costofwar.com...

edit on 2/3/2012 by ANOK because: (no reason given)

And although I am capitalist to the core, this is abominable. However, it is not a reflection on capitalism, it is a reflection on TPTB.

Originally posted by ANOK

Originally posted by JimmyNeutron
And there you go showing your true @ss colors... Forcing socialism at the point of a gun ain't socialism.

You don't think capitalism is forced at the point of a gun?

The socialists and anarchists in the Spanish revolution were all armed and carrying. But then again there was a civil war going on.

No guns are not anti-socialist. Don't be confused with neo-liberals.

What are you talking about??? This last post made absolutely no sense.

And how do you figure that capitalism is forced at the point of a gun? I could care less whether or not you want to be socialist. If you want to be that stupid, have at it. Just don't try to use pseudo-logic to convince me how superior your collectivism would be and then when I don't drink your Kool Aid attempt to force it down my throat.

If socialism is all about everyone sitting around in touchy feely kumbya, then you have failed. You have arrived at a mutually exclusive situation. You either force it down my throat or kill me (representing some authoritarian form of government) or I keep my opinion/way of life because it is what I choose and socialism can't exist cause I won't play your retarded game.

reply to post by JimmyNeutron
Please explain the irony. Is it that we are dependant on corperations? That small business cannot compete with corperations or that most of the corperations outsourced the work of those protesting?

Originally posted by Tea4One
reply to post by JimmyNeutron

 

How did you ever end up with that number?

Look up war time mortality for both civilians and soldiers that have occurred during socialist/communist conflicts from the 1930's through the 1990's. Don't just include wars perpetuated by the big countries - look at all of them. Add to this number estimates of how many political dissenters and intellectual elite were killed under the following:

Soviet Union - Staggering number
China - Staggering number
Cambodia
Cuba
North Korea
Vietnam
et. al...

The number ranges anywhere from 300 million up to over 500 million depending on the sources. I acknowledge that some of the estimates were of lesser credibility than others so I don't quote the higher number. I created a spreadsheet that brought all of that information together when I was arguing with some idiot who was spouting how religion was the scourge of the earth and that government agnosticism was the answer to everything. I merely stated that while all flavors of religion have been guilty, they don't hold a candle to the number of deaths and the pain and suffering perpetuated at the hands of the socialist/fascist/communist state just in the 20th century alone.

Also, you can't just blame the pseudo-socialists for the kills committed by the capitalists. Agent Orange for example can not be attributed to Vietnam but to the American forces who used it.

Why not? To do otherwise would be to cook the books. I am in no way condoning what the United States did in Vietnam. And the reasons we were even there are questionable. However, that is not the point of this post or thread and we should not go down that rat hole. stick to the main point.

BTW: I did not attribute all war mortality in the 20th century to this ideological divide... The 20th century was the bloodiest time period in history. It is unfathomable how many people were killed in pointless wars. There is enough blame to go around that I wouldn't want to unfairly characterize one group over another. Also, I did not characterize who the aggressor may or may not have been. It is way too murky in most cases and volumes have been written about it.

Originally posted by Tea4One
Jesus was neither socialist nor capitalist. He had no political doctrine, only religious. So, keep to the topic at hand, Jesus's teachings are irrelevant in this thread.

edit on 3-2-2012 by Tea4One because: (no reason given)

edit on 3-2-2012 by Tea4One because: (no reason given)

Wow... We agree on something.

Originally posted by colin42
You are still in prison and you are still a prisoner.
Freedom does not exist.

Unhappy people become socialists to escape the perceived "prison" they live in. Their means to escape the oppression is to "radically change" (not themselves) the world.

What they dont realize is that not all of us are unhappy. I am exquisitely happy and do not feel I am in a prison. Hence, I dont want change.

You could say this whole debate is the unhappies against the happies.

See also: Socialism as Infantilism

reply to post by JimmyNeutron
Can I ask why you limit the deaths caused by either doctrine to wars?Bopal 8000 deaths in 3 days. Deaths and sickness still goes on today as does the pollution

So why not look at the death and carnage caused by corperations for profit of a few?

Originally posted by Skyfloating

Originally posted by colin42
You are still in prison and you are still a prisoner.
Freedom does not exist.

Unhappy people become socialists to escape the perceived "prison" they live in. Their means to escape the oppression is to "radically change" (not themselves) the world.

What they dont realize is that not all of us are unhappy. I am exquisitely happy and do not feel I am in a prison. Hence, I dont want change.

You could say this whole debate is the unhappies against the happies.

What you do not realize is people who are happy have the right to do something about via that
freedom you claim to represent. I know unhappy people that become exceptionally good
capitalists and become more unhappy. That is just your way to rationalize your self righteous
opinions, but you are free to be as self righteous as you like, most genuinely self righteous people I
have met are rather happy, good for you

Originally posted by daskakik

Originally posted by JimmyNeutron
And if my idea of help doesn't agree with your idea???

Does your idea of taxes agree with the IRS? Probably not but there you are still defending that system.

Where on earth did you get that idea? I don't agree with any type of government confiscation/redistribution schemes... For the most part politically I am a socially conservative libertarian as it is "defined" today. Economically, I think that capitalism in its pure form (again, this is a theoretical construct and it doesn't exist today and really never has) is the system that best supports the principles of individual liberty defined by my political ideology. So, although I support the current IRS system because it is better for my family than the alternative (which brings us to the economics of making personal choices) which is going to jail, I resent it. It is foisted on me at the point of a gun, so I baaa like a sheep and go along with it for now.

Again, it is a risk vs. reward decision.

reply to post by Skyfloating

Unhappy people become socialists to escape the perceived "prison" they live in. Their means to escape the oppression is to "radically change" (not themselves) the world.

Sorry but that is nonsense. I could counter that by saying unhappy people become capitalists because they belive freedom is measured by how much they own and they want to own everything.

What they dont realize is that not all of us are unhappy. I am exquisitely happy and do not feel I am in a prison. Hence, I dont want change.

Yes it called institutionalised. Many long term prisoners feel the same way. I suppose if you do not want to reform the prisoner then a prison that makes one feel it is not a prison would be the aim of the wardens.

You could say this whole debate is the unhappies against the happies.

No. I have been reading it. To me it is about people trying to justify their beliefs about what doctrine works when in reality none do.

As I said freedom does not exist yet we all try to acheive it.