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Why my mind is closing towards Capitalism

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posted on Feb, 4 2012 @ 05:53 AM
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reply to post by colin42
 

wow.
i said no such thing.
i didn't even bother reading the rest.
show me how you came to that conclusion.




posted on Feb, 4 2012 @ 05:54 AM
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reply to post by Skyfloating
 



There are people smaller and taller than you in body-height. There are people more mathematical and others more intuitive. There are people who would make good leaders and others that would make good salesmen and yet others that would make good workers and still others that would make good athletes.. There are many different cultures and customs and beliefs. By us, these are not understood as problems but as diversity. Diversity breeds learning and some conflict. If the conflict is overdone there can be a war now and then.
You are now talking about diversity not inequality. Diversity within any society should be valued and not seen as a problem. It is where our strngth lays as a species.

Your answer in no way addresses your previous statement that a little inequality is good.


When faced with the fact that others are different than you and some are better at certain things than you, you can either accept your difference or you can strive to become better yourself, or you can do what a socialist does: Try to bring down those who are better than you (at certain things) down to your level. The latter option has been a cause of great devastation throughout History.
Or of course you could value those differences and nurture where talents lay instead of relishing a little inequality.

Your statement on what a socialist does is foundationless hogwash. Please try to base your argument in reality instead of making up nonsense to suit your limited world view.



posted on Feb, 4 2012 @ 05:56 AM
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The first thing I noticed in this thread (after puking in my mouth) is that everyone likes to throw around the word "Capitalism". For anyone defending Free Markets and Free Trade, this word needs to be used with caution, for it was Marx himself who coined this term for the "evil" Free Society set up under the Constitution in the United States. The word was meant to have negative connotations, as you have seen many on the socialists on this thread underscore.

The second thing (I am responding to a lot of stuff on the first few pages here) is that the word you are seeking to describe these people is sociopath, not psychopath. Psychopaths can rarely function in society, let alone rise to any position of power, and generally end up in either prison or an institution. Sociopaths, however, can very easily "fit in" just enough to get by. Many of these people never commit crimes. But others become obsessed with power or wealth or both, and while Rockefeller may be an example of this, so also were Hitler, Mussolini, Marx, Lenin and Castro. These people became adept at using charisma to convince people they had only the people's best interests in mind, and likewise found it much easier to use fascism and communism (both forms of socialism) to take from the people the very things they had promised to give.

Many here seem to advocate a "sunshine and rainbows" Utopia. Have you read the works containing the thought behind these schemes? Plato wrote in his "Republic" of such a society and explored it in great depth. Plato, however could not help but predict the crumbling of his own brain child at the end of this work. Sir Thomas Moore coined the term for his version in his book "Utopia". Yet these books still felt it necessary to create class systems and false ideology to trick the people into going along, and it is no coincidence that Marx uses these themes is his "Communist Manifesto".

Long story short, don't dream of dolphins, rainbows, topless mermaids and dancing whilst singing kum by ya if you haven't done the research. Anyone who has written of socialism or its principals with an open mind has disproved it by thinking it through. It only takes one despot to hijack the whole system, and it cannot be fixed with a revolution, made harder by the fact that the despot now owns the military and all the money. True also is the fact that ANY country that has begun to institute socialist policies sees itself slide into crushing debt and obscurity. Europe is in those throws now. America will soon follow if it does not reverse course immediately. Canada can only lie to itself for so long, and most other countries (many of the those who have tried varying degrees of socialism) are already ruled by a dictator of some sort.

You are entitled to opinions, not facts. The fact is that humans are inherently fallible, and so none should be trusted with such power.

Anarchy? Seriously? You think socialism can come of anarchy? Anarchy breeds lawlessness and murder. Only a few (those with the most muscle and guns) have rights, everyone else is a slave. Again, it only takes a few bad apples to run a muck in this system. Maybe in a cannabis-induced la la land anarchy would work, but never as a real world solution. Please think this through before you advocate it again.

Free Markets and Free Trade go hand in hand with Freedom. With these principals in mind, those who are successful are not forbade from helping the poor, homeless, etc. as evidenced by the fact that Americans give more of their dollars earned in the Free Market to charities the world over than any other nation. This is a fact. The fastest way to dry up the charity would be to make sure we have no extra money to give.

Free Markets do not promote someone becoming richer at the expense of the poor. Those are untruths perpetuated by those who would see a socialist agenda. Rather, in the Free Market, both parties benefit from a transaction because both are trading for something they value more than what they are trading away, whether this be labor, goods, or services. The real problem with Free Markets is that there will, sadly, always be those who could provide these things for themselves but would rather have them handed to them. Those who are not able would willingly be provided for but for fear that the money will go to someone who is able, simply not willing.

How do you tell a socialist from a capitalist? A socialist has read Marx, a capitalist understands Marx.
edit on 4-2-2012 by ProgressiveSlayer because: Bad wording, missing words



posted on Feb, 4 2012 @ 05:59 AM
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reply to post by ImaFungi
 

Wow:



i will posit an abstract theory,..., the actions of the modern man/women,,, the capitalist/baron/ruler/elite, the families of extreme wealth...... the playing out of history how they accumulated their private properties and stored horded energy credits and valuables and what not.... is much how life started on this planet.... and the starting gates of the different races of species,,, it is a race... last one standing.... from the end of time,, the pure breeds are just trying to wait out the rest of the population... because you actually view it as a deadly competition.... you feel you would have been a fool to submit to love, and compassion.. those things cant get you anything or any where... just an idea that poped up,,, when trying to decipher the truth, of just exactly what is going on in this world,, i am not bias to all possible possibilities, it is stranger then fiction... it is cynical,, but the truth may be cynical.

this is not politics. emotions are not politics.
It demagogue PROPAGANDA, new AGE STUFF.
plus your idea of a RACE is exactly like HITLER or STALIN.
Take your pick.

Capitalism. It is what it is.
The right to thrive, commerce.
The right to be yourself, and not be ruled over by a state.
The right of EACH and EVERY MAN to live as they SEE FIT, not as DEMANDED by A NANNY STATE.
ITS CALLED BEING A GROWN UP, not a DEMANDING CHILD:
This is not a RACE! it is called DEVELOPMENT! PROGRESS! UNDERSTANDING!
You obviously view it a s a race, because you got left out, and rather then educating and furthering yourself, you FAULT others.
You fight the wrong fight.
EXPOSE CORRUPTION. EXPOSE EVIL:
Put don't take people down because they are smarter, better, and more agile then you.
Find your NICHE.
THAT is CAPITALISM.
Excpecting someone to do it for YOU is COMMUNISM.
If you get left out....ADAPT.
Don't take the smart, creative, freedom loving ones down.
THIS IS HOW NATURE WORKS.
THIS IS HOW THE UNIVERSE WORKS.
GEt over it.

edit on 4-2-2012 by BBalazs because: (no reason given)

edit on 4-2-2012 by BBalazs because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 4 2012 @ 06:00 AM
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Originally posted by colin42
You are now talking about diversity not inequality.


Where do you draw the line?

If I am better at football than you, is that because there is diversity in peoples skills or inequality?

What about quotas? I think a woman who gets a job through her skill is much happier than if she got it through quotas. Having gained "success" through quotas devalues her work and leaves a stigma on her for the rest of her life. Her not getting the job should not be labelled "inequality" as so many socialists do.

Because I was not born rich I had to put in much more effort to go to the top. Much more. I never complained about that. It made me stronger than the people who were rich from birth.



posted on Feb, 4 2012 @ 06:10 AM
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reply to post by Skyfloating
 


if you got to keep your wealth, and home, and line of work, and pay.. and you werent forced to give anything to anyone else, and you can make as many boats as you want..

would you be opposed to a revamping and reevaluated of our economic and governmental system,. the valued traits of those we enlist in positions of power.. the goals and size and budget of industrial military complex... the creation of artificial food scarcity for profit.... im sure the others could name alot more areas which needed to be checked.... but i understand everything working groovy for you, you didnt have it easy but you persevered, flourished, and prosper... but do you not think there needs to be a reevaluation of priorities... especially with decisions on tax money... the country is in the most debt ever and presidential nominees want to make bases on the moon... can that wait?



posted on Feb, 4 2012 @ 06:11 AM
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reply to post by ImaFungi
 


YES, I would.
I WOULD not BE OPPOSED.
These are legitimate questions.
Thats why I say, you are fighting the wrong ENEMY!

But MOON bases, we NEED those!
But thats just change.

edit on 4-2-2012 by BBalazs because: (no reason given)

edit on 4-2-2012 by BBalazs because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 4 2012 @ 06:15 AM
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Your statement on what a socialist does is foundationless hogwash. Please try to base your argument in reality instead of making up nonsense to suit your limited world view.




The statement is not without merit. It is, in fact, History. When everyone is equal, there is no incentive to excel or achieve. This takes the drive and spirit from Men, effectively cutting all down to the size of the socialist who would rather provide minimally for all by force than to see the compassion Man has for his fellow Man when there is a need simply because he, the socialist, would not be considered for such aid as he is able to produce for himself but not willing. Such is the way of both the elitist and the dogs who beg for the scraps from his table.



posted on Feb, 4 2012 @ 06:17 AM
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reply to post by ProgressiveSlayer
 


is this your utopia:



When everyone is equal, there is no incentive to excel or achieve.

well done! bravo!



posted on Feb, 4 2012 @ 06:20 AM
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reply to post by BBalazs
 


I wasnt saying i view the world that way for my self, i view the world all ways it can be viewed..... i am not whining for my self as if i am left out demanding anything, i have no worries for life i am an heir... but If i do have anything resembling a conscious spirit upon death,, the only hell I can imagine, is regret of not warning the human race of their complete foolishness in not hastily embracing each other... for ending all conflict, to establish a fair order for all souls born onto this world, to live,learn and love in peace,., and progress into the future as a harmonious entity.... to die and have this globe remain in the back of my mind as i journey on, would be the only form of hell id experience...



posted on Feb, 4 2012 @ 06:27 AM
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Originally posted by BBalazs
reply to post by ProgressiveSlayer
 


is this your utopia:



When everyone is equal, there is no incentive to excel or achieve.

well done! bravo!



thats the worst,, i posted in your other thread...... in capitilsm comercialism, the consumer is constantly being bombarded with snip they dont need, and illusions built up around them, statuses, its why hollywood is so important to give people idols and material images... and the media to keep them controled.....

why do you think in a world where everyone has the means for basic survival, all mans knowledge and innovation will be lost.... think of how many Einstein's and edisons are starving every minute all over the world..

you dont care about the progression of humanity,,, you care about excess luxury for a minority and the privledge of looking down on others... gloat.


cooperation is more efficient then competition every time.... now competition is important between bros, to enhance skills, and admire ability, to seek to top, but you are bros,you shouldnt be out to tear each others
throats



that motivation to innovate stuff is the worst... people would have such better environments to create, and there wouldn't be an abundance of crap that is unnecessary ,.. of course if there is a demand it can be made.... but humanity saving inventions wouldnt be held back, because corporation profits would not be the largest concern.



posted on Feb, 4 2012 @ 06:27 AM
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reply to post by ImaFungi
 


great thoughts.
why not help to poor?
why not search for yourself?

why fuse politics and faith?
why?
your faith in the great equal is correct.
your faith for one state control is wrong.
state control doesn't lead to more equality.
education will. free will and choices will.

you will not have those above choices in a communist state.
the idea we are all equal is great.
and indeed we are.
we are all human.
what sets us apart is skills.
want to change to world?
teach people to fish.
teach them critical thinking skills.
find your niche and go forth and multiply.

politics is tactics.
communism is a debunked ideal.
want to make a change?
go into politics, fight the good fight.
You will soon learn, it is not a dream state.
You will learn, less is more. and freedom is more important then anything else.

Enforcing a top down view on people will just make them dumber.
Look at the animals in the zoo?
top down.
are they happy?
they are happy when they are FREE!

edit on 4-2-2012 by BBalazs because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 4 2012 @ 06:31 AM
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reply to post by ImaFungi
 


actually i agree with many of your points.
but why did consumerism get out of hand in this way?
why is our food supply contaminated?

because of government tampering.
this is not a truly capitalist society we live in.
it is a capitalistic elitist (company oriented) dictatorship, more a socialist system with appointed ruling companies.
still better then outright communism though.
when we unite that communism is not the ideal, we can overthrown this crap and get back to real democracy and capitalism, as nature intended.
edit on 4-2-2012 by BBalazs because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 4 2012 @ 06:36 AM
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Originally posted by Skyfloating

Originally posted by colin42
You are now talking about diversity not inequality.


Where do you draw the line?

If I am better at football than you, is that because there is diversity in peoples skills or inequality?

What about quotas? I think a woman who gets a job through her skill is much happier than if she got it through quotas. Having gained "success" through quotas devalues her work and leaves a stigma on her for the rest of her life. Her not getting the job should not be labelled "inequality" as so many socialists do.

Because I was not born rich I had to put in much more effort to go to the top. Much more. I never complained about that. It made me stronger than the people who were rich from birth.


You draw the line at promoting inequality.

Your better at football than me, (most people are). I am better at babmington than you does that mean I do not value your skills and you mine? When I should have gone for county trials in babmington a footballer was sent instead as the games teacher only valued football and gave any opportunity to footballers. Inequality in action.

Quotas are self defeating IMO. All that is needed is a level playing field and those involved to ensure fair play so you get no arguments over quotas.

You worked hard for promotion, good for you and I mean that honestly. While you were working hard how many did you see shoe horned in who made no effort? How many more are still above you that woked as hard as you and how many got there with the old school tie?

So what you are describing is a world where strong, seasoned and hardworking people are held back while a privalidged few share the plumb jobs around a closed shop. That may not be your experience it is for many others.

So to me there is a wide difference between inequality and diversity of talent. One should be despised and oposed. The other celebrated and encouraged



posted on Feb, 4 2012 @ 06:40 AM
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Originally posted by ImaFungi
would you be opposed to a revamping and reevaluated of our economic and governmental system,. the valued traits of those we enlist in positions of power.. the goals and size and budget of industrial military complex... the creation of artificial food scarcity for profit.... im sure the others could name alot more areas which needed to be checked.... but i understand everything working groovy for you, you didnt have it easy but you persevered, flourished, and prosper... but do you not think there needs to be a reevaluation of priorities... especially with decisions on tax money... the country is in the most debt ever and presidential nominees want to make bases on the moon... can that wait?


These are discussions of details as opposed to overall philosophies (capitalism/socialism). No, in detail, I dont think we should go to Mars right now (and much less the moon thats just a piece of rock). So that is a disagreement on a specific point recently brought up by presidential candidate Gingrich.

The overall meta-difference in philosophy between a socialist and a capitalist is the way difficulty is viewed. Life is not defined by us to be a place where were are meant to happily rest all day. We accept the yin- and yang of life without entitlement mentality.



posted on Feb, 4 2012 @ 06:40 AM
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reply to post by colin42
 

where is the level playing field in nature?
you are setting up an unattainable ideal, and forcing it on all.



posted on Feb, 4 2012 @ 06:42 AM
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reply to post by BBalazs
 


Utopia refers to a fictional land in a book by Sir Thomas Moore where he attempts to construct a "perfect society." The overtones describe a socialist state.

I know very few people who would go through the hard work and training to become a doctor if they were going to be paid the same as the guy behind the counter at McDonald's. This creates complacency, and the system cannot sustain itself without creating classes based what kind of job you are willing to train for and take. This leads to reward or penalization for members of certain classes, but is ultimately necessary for people to take on those vocations. That's just human nature.



posted on Feb, 4 2012 @ 06:45 AM
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reply to post by BBalazs
 


Teachable moment, lol, although I would advocate going back the Republic set up by the Constitution.



posted on Feb, 4 2012 @ 06:45 AM
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reply to post by ProgressiveSlayer
 


communism is utopia. haven't you heard?
the workers paradise.
true story.

is the current system flawed?
yes, all systems are flawed.
why?
because of government peddling.
can it be better?
yes.
with less government, more education and critical thinking skills.



posted on Feb, 4 2012 @ 06:46 AM
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Originally posted by BBalazs
reply to post by ImaFungi
 


great thoughts.
why not help to poor?
why not search for yourself?

why fuse politics and faith?
why?
your faith in the great equal is correct.
your faith for one state control is wrong.
state control doesn't lead to more equality.
education will. free will and choices will.

you will not have those above choices in a communist state.
the idea we are all equal is great.
and indeed we are.
we are all human.
what sets us apart is skills.
want to change to world?
teach people to fish.
teach them critical thinking skills.
find your niche and go forth and multiply.

politics is tactics.
communism is a debunked ideal.
want to make a change?
go into politics, fight the good fight.
You will soon learn, it is not a dream state.
You will learn, less is more. and freedom is more important then anything else.

Enforcing a top down view on people will just make them dumber.
Look at the animals in the zoo?
top down.
are they happy?
they are happy when they are FREE!

edit on 4-2-2012 by BBalazs because: (no reason given)


help the poor that is what my whole argument and stance has been to try to prove to you that the poor need to be helped once and for all... not some charity, but top down, down up, bottem around, flip the whole system... make a new game where everyone can play... its what will happen.. it has to,,, the technology that exists is the game changer..the other biggest thing that will change everything is what everyone is feeling, and predicting, consciousness... people will embrace the embrace... people will realize they dont need to be selfish and greedy tools to survive.. individual discipline is extremely important, to view your self as the best, to have confidence in your skills, think whatever you want.. but if you think the richest man in the world is more important or valuable then the poorest,, the richest man is not even a real life... why fuse politics and faith? i dont have faith really but i do have philosophy, and all things from economics to politics is a brand of philosophy,

You will soon learn, it is not a dream state.
You will learn, less is more. and freedom is more important then anything else.

i dont get what you mean here,, i understand freedom is more important then anything else... but my view is the generalest freedom to live.. as a free being, on a sovereign planet, not controlled and owned by anyone... the most important things in life are diet and environment... from that base, a skill set can be established, passions followed, progress and innovation made... you cant be yelling at the poor "come on pip up get a job" when they can only afford canned tuna and white bread.... there has to be a way to create more food... an emphasis on nutrient rich, healthy food,, and this goes for the world round...



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