Christians....I'm SICK of them

Originally posted by vogon42

Originally posted by gabby2011
...........
..... new testament that Jesus says anyone who is not for Him is against Him?

.....

Wow, I think you go to the same church as my mother.

Its a rather large block to communication when you view the entire world (outside of your church), a sinner, and damn them to hell.

Do you see how that could be perceived as a bit less than loving?

Vogon..I am not damning anyone to hell.. even God does not do that.. his children choose to reject Him.

But at the same time.. I'm not going to agree with interpretation of the scripture that I believe is wrong... or sit idly by and watch Satan make a mockery of the bible.

Tell me vogon.. has being outside the church helped you in being loving?. let me ask you why way before you even started this thread.. even before I was talking about Christianity were you so cruel to me.. ?

I could go back and list all the posts you made to me.. then answer me who has the problem with being less loving?

All the non Christians who talk about the lack of love they see in Christians.. I challenge you.. to show more love in how you deal with your fellow human beings.

Originally posted by gabby2011
All the non Christians who talk about the lack of love they see in Christians.. I challenge you.. to show more love in how you deal with your fellow human beings.

Accepted my friend.

With Love,

Your Brother

Reincarnation is ONLY false doctrine to christians...

reply to post by Akragon
Yes. That is what I have been trying to point out. I have only said that the Christian Bible doesn't support the concept of re-incarnation.

I do not fully agree with the OP...

I recall that in my first post to you - in the very first sentence - I made it clear that I wasn't sure what position you stood for. I didn't post to judge you. I posted to add information. If I have offended you I sincerely apologise. That was not my intention.

Or the "Christian" faith for that matter...

That is fine. That is your choice. I do not believe that in any of my posts that I have even commented on your personal beliefs.

Its not the people that claim to be Christian that come under scrutiny here, its the ones that condem others that don't agree with them...

I don't believe that I have condemned anybody in this thread. I have merely tried to explain what the Christian Bible teaches, as there is much misinformation being presented. My original post to the OP was an offer of help and understanding. Which I admitted upfront that I needed to journey along that path as well. I offered to do it together. It is (ironically) the Christians, who are offering help and answers, that are being condemned (as by the thread title).

You didn't offend me... And i know your faith... i was wondering if you knew it as well...

Firstly - I don't think that you do know my faith. Secondly - yes, I do know my faith. Most surely friend.

Im trying to say theres spiritual knowledge outside of the bible...

Yes I agree. I don't think that I have denied that. The Christian Bible also Teaches that as fact. But it also explains the effect of said spiritual knowledge.

reply to post by gabby2011

All the non Christians who talk about the lack of love they see in Christians.. I challenge you.. to show more love in how you deal with your fellow human beings.

There is a lack of love shown by some Christians. Not all.
I challenge you back...to show more love in how you address people who disagree with your interpretations of the Bible, God, and the Christian edicts -- that is, the actual message of Christ (which latter does NOT say to ridicule, denegrate, insult, and hold grudges against others for your perceptions of how they are and what they are trying to say).

(And by the way, you can expect that when you do those things, the people you are rejecting and insulting will protest. The protestation of unfair treatment is a right. The retaliation instinct is the acting out of "fight or flight", and part of human nature.... )

Originally posted by gabby2011
...... I'm not going to agree with interpretation of the scripture that I believe is wrong... .

That must be where your hate comes from. Others do not interpret the book in the same way that you do, therefore they are evil.

Seriously, do you not understand how hateful that is??

Tell me vogon.. has being outside the church helped you in being loving?. ........

OH YES, it most certainly has!
No longer surrounded by the browbeating fire and brimstone talk.

No longer surrounded by hateful people that think their only purpose in life is to judge others.

Its WONDERFUL!
The only issue is that these hateful people still have a grip on my mother....so having a conversation with her is nearly impossible.

Is this some bible verse or something?
Literally if you find your self in a paper bag, I fail to see how shouting at it will prove anything.

reply to post by vogon42


If a Christian posts this type of comment to you, how would you react ?

now THIS statement proves my view of christianity...
If you dont agree with me you are wrong, and will burn in hell.
Does anyone see the issue in that logic? Why does this persons jesus teach people to hate?

If you read the Christian Bible, friend, you will understand that Jesus teaches His disciples to do nothing but love.

"feet sandals" ? jesus really said that
Did they have hand sandals, or head sandals back then?

Or is this another bible verse that means something totally different that what it says?

Please offer some constructive, relevant conversation when posting in forums. You attack others for this kind of remark, yet you use it yourself.

Originally posted by vogon42

Originally posted by gabby2011
...... I'm not going to agree with interpretation of the scripture that I believe is wrong... .

That must be where your hate comes from. Others do not interpret the book in the same way that you do, therefore they are evil.

Seriously, do you not understand how hateful that is??

Tell me vogon.. has being outside the church helped you in being loving?. ........

OH YES, it most certainly has!
No longer surrounded by the browbeating fire and brimstone talk.

No longer surrounded by hateful people that think their only purpose in life is to judge others.

Its WONDERFUL!
The only issue is that these hateful people still have a grip on my mother....so having a conversation with her is nearly impossible.

Can I change your mind about anything my friend?

I hope you realise how impossible it is. Your mind is God's. He teaches you all that you know, and your mother too. What she knows is for her, what you know is for you.

When we communicate together, we are not supposed to use our minds, for they are different.

We are supposed to use our hearts, for their is our commonality.

With Love,

Your Brother

Why are so many christians (not all) so quick to judge and condemn others?

This form of religion seems very hateful.

reply to post by vogon42
How have I condemned you friend. I have merely asked you a question because you claimed that you are not a sinner. I am not judging you at all - or being hateful.
I have not said that I am better than you either. I am definitely NOT better than you.
I have not right to judge you - and I am not at all. I am a sinner myself. The Christian Bible teaches "remove the log out of ones own eye before you point out the speck in another's."

If you go back to my original reply to you, you will see that I offered you some help (as best as I can give). I still stand by my offer.

Originally posted by 1king2rulethemall

How have I condemned you friend. I have merely asked you a question because you claimed that you are not a sinner. ........

Didn't say you condemned me, just asked why it is your religion is so judgmental and hateful.

(Or yours and gabbys I guess.....others on this thread seem to have less condeming religions....even though they are all based on the same book)

BTW: You did not ask me a question, this post was via your reply to Annee.

reply to post by vogon42

That must be where your hate comes from. Others do not interpret the book in the same way that you do, therefore they are evil. Seriously, do you not understand how hateful that is??

How is that hateful vogon.. by caring that they do not fall prey to the twisting that satan can do.

If in the bible Jesus says.. "there is now way to come to the father but through me"..am I being hateful by saying to someone that I do not believe there are many roads that lead to heaven?..or that I don't believe Jesus was a Buddhist. ?

I will agree that we will never all agree.. because it would be impossible to do so.. and a contradiction to our faiths if we did.

anyhow vogon.. you can continue judging me.. it doesn't bother me..after all it is only Christs judgements I need to be concerned with...and He knows my heart.. as well as my weaknesses.

Any judgement on Holy teachings of others I made.. I did out of love.. but I am starting to see..that I need to just back off completely and just pray for all of you..as well as myself..and this whole world.

I'm sure you will be happy that I will not be participating much on this board anymore.

I felt something inside me telling me this wasn't productive.. yet another voice seemed to say.. share this..I want them to know.

May the love and mercy of Jesus be with us all.

Goodbye.

Originally posted by gabby2011
.......

Goodbye.

I hope you stick to your word this time.

You have stated this many times before, only to return and cloud up the thread.

Originally posted by wildtimes
reply to post by gabby2011

 

All the non Christians who talk about the lack of love they see in Christians.. I challenge you.. to show more love in how you deal with your fellow human beings.

There is a lack of love shown by some Christians. Not all.
I challenge you back...to show more love in how you address people who disagree with your interpretations of the Bible, God, and the Christian edicts -- that is, the actual message of Christ (which latter does NOT say to ridicule, denegrate, insult, and hold grudges against others for your perceptions of how they are and what they are trying to say).

A big star for you, dear Friend! At least some can understand what I, and others are saying to you ones who think you know your book, but clearly do not. I guess it is a plain and simple lack of understanding, I mean, I talk in plain English, and use words found in any American dictionary. When I quote Bible, I use the words in the book, I don't make something up.

(And by the way, you can expect that when you do those things, the people you are rejecting and insulting will protest. The protestation of unfair treatment is a right. The retaliation instinct is the acting out of "fight or flight", and part of human nature....

And yes, I guess one who comes in here, God's personal messenger, filled with the Holy Spirit, says they know the Bible like the back of their hand, talks to God on a daily basis, has a direct line to Jesus and knows exactly what he said all those years ago....would in all reality expect to get a little debate, some who show you the truth of the matter, some who tell you how nuts you sound This is a big forum with a lot of people, and Christianity does not have a lock on information, truth, and history, no matter how bad they would like to have those things.

Originally posted by vogon42.

Its WONDERFUL!
The only issue is that these hateful people still have a grip on my mother....so having a conversation with her is nearly impossible.

If you are serious about helping your mother look at the way Jesus was able to always refute the Pharisees logic. He was able to answer every question they asked in ways they were not ready for. He stumped them; they had nothing more to say, so they killed him.

So again if you are serious learn the scripture for yourself. I have shown you a glimpse of what Christ was teaching. You must read for yourself, you must believe that the message is for you and it is a call to unite all people under one God. What your mother believes is an interpretation that causes judgment, hate and separation.

Take the challenge my brother and learn the scripture better so that you will be able to answer every question that she has. The bible contradicts the churches interpretation one has to be blinded not to see that what is being taught at the church is wrong. Your mom can’t see this. Realize that she has staked the whole world’s fate on this belief that she has. You are likely the only one who could help her.

I imagine she loves in this order God, You, and then the church. You are the only one that can bring her back to the truth. For you are the only thing that she loves more than the church. You will have to convince her to pick you over the church. The only way you can do this is through the very words that she believes are the truth. This is not as hard as it sounds. I promise if you read letting the Holy Spirit guide you, it will become clear how she has been lead astray.

Hopefully you take this the right way. Remember that Satan knows scripture better than you or I. He has seen God and knows the truth. He has used scripture to create the church. We must be like Christ when Satan uses scripture against us, we must show him where he has contradicted scripture. I am not calling your mom evil. But her interpretation has come from the evil one.

This is the only way you will be able to fully reconcile with your mother. The choice is yours and there is only one choice that leads to love. Follow the road to love and you will find it. Have faith and you will find joy.

I pray that you have the faith to read the bible for yourself and even more faith to confront your mother with the truth that the Holy Spirit will teach you. I pray for your mom that she can look past the church into the love of her child. So that she may accept the truth when you by your faith have confronted her with the very book that she puts her faith in. I pray this in the name of Jesus Christ the son of the living God.

Originally posted by autowrench
And yes, I guess one who comes in here, God's personal messenger, filled with the Holy Spirit, says they know the Bible like the back of their hand, talks to God on a daily basis, has a direct line to Jesus and knows exactly what he said all those years ago....would in all reality expect to get a little debate, some who show you the truth of the matter, some who tell you how nuts you sound This is a big forum with a lot of people, and Christianity does not have a lock on information, truth, and history, no matter how bad they would like to have those things.

Autowrench I do expect a debate from people who don't believe that the Holy Spirit has guided me to an understanding. I believe the only time I confronted you is when you were providing links to websites saying that the bible stole from other religions.

The interesting thing that I pointed out to you was that other than some Egyptian Glyphs, which don’t really match the bible much, there are no manuscripts from any religion that predate the biblical manuscripts, or predate Christ.

So this leaves us all with one of two conclusions. The first in a wild attempt to bring multiple religions into one book a group of people 1700 years ago made up a mystical tale that reads like a perfect story. And that the church somehow destroyed any evidence that refutes the life of Christ.

Or we can conclude that someone named Jesus that was at least a religious leader taught a philosophy of love that was radically different than what had been heard. Then we only need to conclude, what no one seems to dispute, that the message of Christ indeed points toward a way of love that few of us could live up to even though we agree with the philosophy. If we accept the philosophy of Christ it is at least as likely that so did everyone else and they incorporated it into their religion.

To me the choice is simple, I believe in one source with that source being Christ. You know that I am Anti-church and pro Christ. I think by now you also know that I say the bible does not teach judgment, hate and separation. What it does teach is love, patience, and fellowship.

What I say does not contradict the bible. The great thing is you don’t have to believe me. The message is there the interpreter is ready; the Holy Spirit, all you need to do is have faith. Again I still hope that someday you can look past the organized church and find the one who lives in you.

Originally posted by benedict9
reply to post by petrus4

 

If you have willingly placed yourself in Surrender to our Father' s Will for Him to Guide you Accordingly, then that is a HUGE step in Faith and Trust. Many feel that 'surrender' is disempowering to their being, however it is the most empowering prayer that can be offered in sacrifice of our own temporal flesh desires.

My level of surrender probably is not what it could be; but I do consider surrender to be one of the most important elements of my own faith.

The bottom line is, that where Christians are concerned, I've noticed that there are fundamentally two different groups.

The first group, are people who have had real interaction with, and experience of God. They are thus people who have a relationship with God that is based purely on the mutual giving and reception of love; it is entirely voluntary. They therefore feel no need whatsoever to condemn anyone else, or tell them that they are going to Hell.

The second group are people who have read the Bible, possibly many times; but whose lives have literally no mystical or genuinely divine component whatsoever. As a result, they have been taught that God sends people to Hell, and they believe it due to not having the other side of the story, so to speak; they have not actually interacted with God.

Because of this, the second group, if they were honest with themselves, generally do not actually want to be Christian; and likely also secretly feel enormous resentment, not only towards the image of God that they have been given, but their entire situation. They remain active as a Christian involuntarily, and primarily due to a constant state of being literally berserk with fear, due not only to the threat of Hell, but also apocalyptic eschatology.

I'm not going to explicitly name names, as to which of the above two groups, I consider the individual Christians in this thread to be in...but I do have private opinions.

reply to post by vogon42


I take complete offense to this....what if i said "atheists i am SICK of them"???

Originally posted by CrazyRaccoon
reply to post by vogon42

 

I take complete offense to this....what if i said "atheists i am SICK of them"???

edit on 10-1-2012 by CrazyRaccoon because: (no reason given)

Generalisations are nearly always problematic. The bottom line is that no philosophical or subcultural group on the planet contains people which are either exclusively reasonable, or exclusively unreasonable. Human beings have enormous potential to behave in both a positive and a negative manner.

I've known some kind and charitable Christians before, and one or two extremely altruistic and positive Atheists. I've also known terrible representatives of both groups.

Unfortunately, the silent majority, while positive, still tend to be just that...silent. So you don't see all of the good people in each group, because they're just toddling along, quietly living their lives. It's usually only the bad apples who draw attention to themselves.

reply to post by sacgamer25

The interesting thing that I pointed out to you was that other than some Egyptian Glyphs, which don’t really match the bible much, there are no manuscripts from any religion that predate the biblical manuscripts, or predate Christ.

That is where you are wrong, friend. There are many religious writings that pre-date the Bible, and Christ is but 2000 years old, right? Here is a little history, you can check it out yourself, but it clearly shows much religious style writings way before the Bible writings, and way way before Christ. Who told you that your Bible and Christ were older that the recorded history of Mesopotamia, Sumeria, and Babylon? Whoever it was, was not telling you the truth.

3000 years Before the Common Era Sumerian Cuneiform emerged from the proto-literate Uruk period, allowing the codification of beliefs and creation of detailed historical religious records.
2494-2345 B.C.E. The first of the oldest surviving religious texts, the Pyramid Texts, are composed in Ancient Egypt.
2150-2000 B.C.E. The earliest surviving versions of the Sumerian Epic of Gilgamesh (originally titled "He who Saw the Deep" or "Surpassing All Other Kings" was written, probably then oldest religious writing in the world.

The Babylonian creation myth is recounted in the "Epic of Creation" also known as the Enuma Elish. The Mesopotamian "Epic of Creation" (Original Flood story, origin of the Biblical Noah's Flood) dates to the late second millennium B.C.E.

And I suppose you have never heard of the First Book of Adam and Eve?

2000-1850 B.C.E. The traditionally accepted period in which the Judeo/Christian/Islamic patriarchal figure Abraham lived. Likely born in Ur or Haran, and died in Machpelah, Canaan.
Abraham was the original Christian patriarch, right? Can you prove me wrong?

reply to post by sacgamer25

What your mother believes is an interpretation that causes judgment, hate and separation.

Take the challenge my brother and learn the scripture better so that you will be able to answer every question that she has. The bible contradicts the churches interpretation one has to be blinded not to see that what is being taught at the church is wrong. Your mom can’t see this. ... I promise if you read letting the Holy Spirit guide you, it will become clear how she has been lead astray.

sac,
this was a thoughtful response, and in theory correct. Nevertheless, it assumes the willingness of the "stray" to listen to anyone who is NOT part of the church, and as we have seen right here in this thread, there are some who just don't want to hear it, refuse to hear it the way it was intended, and blow a gasket, get huffy, and leave.

I don't know how open vogon's mother is to her faith being challenged with questions, let alone if she would ASK any of him. And therein lies the problem. How can one "convince" anyone else unless that person is "open" to the other's perspective, no matter how loving and from what best of intentions they broach the subject?

If one is blinded, as you said, they can't see. God himself, I fear, is the only one who could reach her, truly. While vogon would be reinforcing his own more correct belief, she would feel so attacked and defensive that she would shut down.

Do you see what I mean? I think with some people it's best to not engage with conversation about things they have no interest in learning about. To spend a lot of time, focus, effort and energy coming up with a perfectly reasonable presentation will not convince the audience to listen.

reply to post by petrus4

I enjoy reading your posts for they are of deep thought with much clarity in expression of such.

I hear you in many ways and you are well aligned on your path and perspective. That I feel strongly.

Any willful prayer in Surrender to the Divine Will is not something to ever be taken lightly because it WILL change one who is genuinely sincere in dedicating their spiritual path to Service in Love (in realising the Creation aspect Granted in you by the father). That is the Essence of the Christ Path--where one Divine Virtue naturally flows with the other in synergy--wherein the state of 'being' becomes you moreso and moreso in greater energetic 'holy' Alignment.