believers in jesus...please explain this..

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by jmdewey60

 

The fact that the creation of Adam and the creation of the garden is in two sentences I don't think excludes Adam from having been created there. You seem to have some sort of special knowledge known only to you that Adam was not created in the garden.

My authority is scripture, the Word. In Genesis 2:7-8 the garden was planted by God after He created Adam from the dust of the Earth and breathed the breath of life in him. So how could God have created Adam in a garden He had yet to plant? God gave man two things two do, "work" and to "keep" (protect). After God created man He gave him work to do. To glorify Himself and provide enjoyment for Adam.

No.
The sentence describing the creation of the garden comes after the sentence describing the creation of Adam.
It does not say that one was created after the other.
You are just giving an opinion and making your opinion out to be of the same authority as the Bible's.

reply to post by jmdewey60


There is more to it then that You will have to buddy up with some Jewish folks, and get the oral account which has been passed down from generation to generation. They will tell you same type of things I have said, but also flesh out the things that where hidden in text. But I love it how I challenge you as well, and you just sidestep it. I aint posting anymore in response to you.

Originally posted by HeavenWolf

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by HeavenWolf

 

So you are saying there were multiple Edens, then.

No I am not saying that at all. BUT I want you to answer the questions. I am not answering them for you.. but honestly dont you think it is odd for a jew or even lets say a Christian to be so ...preoccupied with where they where gonna be buried!? You probably dont think its odd, but most Jews and Christians ( ones I know) dont hang around graveyards and are preoccupied with sort of thought..

Actually I have thought about it and I have been recently reading up on that very topic but have a financial problem with being able to buy the books I need to do a more thorough study on it.
Burial places are what created boundary markers for people in old Canaanite days, where the corners of the property would have a burial spot with one of their dead ancestors or whatever and that showed a claim to ownership of the land.

Originally posted by jmdewey60

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by jmdewey60

 

The fact that the creation of Adam and the creation of the garden is in two sentences I don't think excludes Adam from having been created there. You seem to have some sort of special knowledge known only to you that Adam was not created in the garden.

My authority is scripture, the Word. In Genesis 2:7-8 the garden was planted by God after He created Adam from the dust of the Earth and breathed the breath of life in him. So how could God have created Adam in a garden He had yet to plant? God gave man two things two do, "work" and to "keep" (protect). After God created man He gave him work to do. To glorify Himself and provide enjoyment for Adam.

No.
The sentence describing the creation of the garden comes after the sentence describing the creation of Adam.
It does not say that one was created after the other.
You are just giving an opinion and making your opinion out to be of the same authority as the Bible's.

Actually, NotUrTypical is absolutely correct. I think this was something I shared in a post on a thread this summer. The Bible says

Genesis 2: 7And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. 8And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed.

In English, which you and I both speak very well, it appears here that the man came first and then the garden. You know a funny thing...when people disagree with the English translation, they always go back and say "this is what is says in the original Hebrew and Greek" and then they say "The Hebrew was wrong according to the Greek", as though the Hebrew speakers didn't even know their own language.

The Bible's biggest mystery is this, what language is the most appropriate to understand it? The language you speak, that is the most appropriate. It's like people think God was too stupid to figure out there would be different languages.

Originally posted by jmdewey60

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by jmdewey60

 

The fact that the creation of Adam and the creation of the garden is in two sentences I don't think excludes Adam from having been created there. You seem to have some sort of special knowledge known only to you that Adam was not created in the garden.

My authority is scripture, the Word. In Genesis 2:7-8 the garden was planted by God after He created Adam from the dust of the Earth and breathed the breath of life in him. So how could God have created Adam in a garden He had yet to plant? God gave man two things two do, "work" and to "keep" (protect). After God created man He gave him work to do. To glorify Himself and provide enjoyment for Adam.

No.
The sentence describing the creation of the garden comes after the sentence describing the creation of Adam.
It does not say that one was created after the other.
You are just giving an opinion and making your opinion out to be of the same authority as the Bible's.

How is it "my opinion" to point out that in the creation account God made Adam first, then He planted a garden in Eden?

Let's try this another way, what is your Biblical support for claiming Adam was created after God planted the garden in Eden?

reply to post by WarminIndy


Yes, and "had formed", indicated it was a past event. (Adam's creation)

reply to post by NOTurTypical

. . . what is your Biblical support for claiming Adam was created after God planted the garden in Eden?

I'm not claiming that.
My claim is that it does not say that one thing happened after the other.
You are the one making a claim that because one description follows another then one had to have happened after the other.
I don't see that as being implicit in the narration at all and I don't see that as being the way the chapter is set up in general.

reply to post by WarminIndy

. . . In English, which you and I both speak very well, it appears here that the man came first and then the garden.

Which is irrelevant considering that Genesis was not originally written in English.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by WarminIndy

 

Yes, and "had formed", indicated it was a past event. (Adam's creation)

And there is nothing to indicate how long it was between making Adam and then making the garden. And there is nothing to indicate the passage of time between that and making Eve, and there is no indication of how long they were in the garden before the fall.

Most Christians like to think it happened like this...Boom, garden..Boom, Adam...Boom, Eve...Boom, fall....and those booms happening all in the same day. The Bible is clear that God came and walked with them in the evenings, but it says nothing about how long that time was. We simply do not know, because the Bible is silent on that, so I think God is saying to us "just use common sense, but it really does matter how long".

We know the Bible says how long Adam lived, but was that age counted from the moment he was created or the time he was put out of the garden? When he was in the garden, there would have been no use of counting his age, because at that time, he simply was not growing older as we do, he was not going to die physically in the garden.

The serpent said "in that day, thou shalt not surely die", that is something Adam and Eve had no concept of, death had not entered the world yet. They did die in that day, it was the day in which the mechanism of time and aging toward death came into their bodies.

Isn't it an amazing thing, that for seeds to become plants, they must die and a woman's ovarian eggs must die as well. Our skin cells die and is replaced, every single moment of the day. If we could only get the understanding that our spiritual man will never die, it will go on and on, and the resurrection and the life is to reconcile us in body and spirit with God.

The sad thing is this, if a person has fed their inward man, the spirit, nothing but regret, shame, guilt and evil, that is what the spirit will carry on after the physical man is gone. When they are resurrected to be joined again forever, all they will feel is all those emotions with no way of easing them, forever. Jesus came to change us inwardly, so the outward man may be free from them.

Even those who believe in karma will say that their reincarnations are forever, until they have learned something and go on to enlightenment, but they will continually have to deal with those feelings forever. Karma might be attractive to some people because it excuses them from guilt under the guise of learning something and changing, so they think they have millions of times to get it right. It would be wonderful if that were true, but sadly it is not.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by WarminIndy

 

. . . In English, which you and I both speak very well, it appears here that the man came first and then the garden.

Which is irrelevant considering that Genesis was not originally written in English.

Yes, but you and I speak English. Do you think God does not know English? Don't you think God could have said, "English will be too hard for them to understand, so I will cause the Bible to be written in a language they don't know and they have to fight over the meanings"?

Are you saying God does not know English?

reply to post by WarminIndy

Even those who believe in karma will say that their reincarnations are forever, until they have learned something and go on to enlightenment, but they will continually have to deal with those feelings forever. Karma might be attractive to some people because it excuses them from guilt under the guise of learning something and changing, so they think they have millions of times to get it right. It would be wonderful if that were true, but sadly it is not.

Karma doesn't excuse you from guilt... its something that happens regardless of how you feel about it.

The idea is you learn from your mistakes so as not to repeat them in the future... Its also not about having millions of chances to "get it right" either... That would also likely be a reason the church didn't teach reincarnation... They would have no control if people knew they lived more then once...

Karma is real bro... its proveable.

Believe it or not, somethings are real regardless of your belief in them.

Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by WarminIndy


The idea is you learn from your mistakes so as not to repeat them in the future... Its also not about having millions of chances to "get it right" either... That would also likely be a reason the church didn't teach reincarnation... They would have no control if people knew they lived more then once...

Karma is real bro... its proveable.

Believe it or not, somethings are real regardless of your belief in them.

Could there be some people who have not learned from their mistakes? And is it really provable beyond someone saying they have memories of an event? The church does not teach against reincarnation because of that, the church teaches that you must be accountable for your actions in this life, because it is in this life that you caused damage.

It is about accountability, and if you remove the accountability factor, people think they should be able to do what they want, because maybe in the next life, as someone else, they might be able to get it right. Unfortunately, they cannot make it right for the person they hurt, because that person does not cross your path in the next life.

Make it right in this life, that is all we ask.

reply to post by Akragon

Sorry to barge in you say I quote ..Karma is real bro... its proveable
Can you prove it to me then cheers

reply to post by k1k1to
In certain christain mythology, Jesus went to hell to "liberate" those people during the 3 days before he rose. I don't know if that's the answer you are looking for, but hopefully it's a good starting point.

reply to post by WarminIndy

Could there be some people who have not learned from their mistakes?

Yes of course...

And they will repeat their mistakes...

And is it really provable beyond someone saying they have memories of an event?

Yes it is...

The church does not teach against reincarnation because of that, the church teaches that you must be accountable for your actions in this life, because it is in this life that you caused damage.

You are always accountable for your actions... thats the idea of Karma...

Consider the possibility that you are still here because of the actions of your past lives...

It is about accountability, and if you remove the accountability factor, people think they should be able to do what they want, because maybe in the next life, as someone else, they might be able to get it right. Unfortunately, they cannot make it right for the person they hurt, because that person does not cross your path in the next life.

Again, you are always accountable for your actions...

Many churches teach that you are forgiven for your actions... and thus the "accountability factor" falls on Christ to forgive your sins.... In reality one knows Christ hes very hard to sin against your brother... He is not a scapegoat for your sins.... Only you are accountable for your deeds... And Karma sees to that.

Originally posted by HeavenWolf
reply to post by lonewolf19792000

 

First off yes Jews do/can have long hair.. I have long hair, and a beard. Jews are commanded NOT to round their head, because it is a form of shaming, same with the four corners of the beard, when it is shaved off other then the purpose of renewal/rebirth (see Nazirite vow).

Second Jews can be white, mexicans can be white, africans can be white, so please stop with that bit.. it gets no where.

True repentance comes from above, you see that you have gone down the wrong road, and head back to the beginning. In Hebrew the word is Teshuba, which means to turn around. Paul writes that he hates part of himself and wishes he could just cut/tear the good from bad. Saul when he opened his eyes and seen the Messiah, he repented, meaning his love for G-d and the Messiah was as deep as his hatred was.

Something I would like to throw out there is that everything that exists today, has a spirit. Because G-d breathed life into it. G-d lays Adam on a slab after making his body, and breathes life into him. It is said when G-d created the word He sang 10 words, and the earth came into being (by His breath).

Apprently you missed my frame of referrence when i said jews in Jesus' time and back in his day you'd be pretty hardpressed to find a jew that was not of hebrew decent because they typically did not marry outside their ethnicity, nor did they convert and when they did marry many times they married distant cousins. It was illegal in those days for a non-jew (gentile) to even approach a jew or initate dialogue with them, this law didn't apply to Romans because they were conquered by the Romans and the Romans did not care as Caesar Vespasian proved when he set up a statue of himself in the temple before it was destroyed which led the the 70 A.D. revolt.

Originally posted by boymonkey74
reply to post by Akragon

 

Sorry to barge in you say I quote ..Karma is real bro... its proveable
Can you prove it to me then cheers

Yes... but you need to see it for yourself to prove it...

Show another man/woman love... That love will be returned...

Show Generosity... and it will be returned in a positive way in your life.

Show compassion and forgiveness, and you will be forgiven...

Show selflessness which is love.... and your life will flow with positivity...

On the other hand...

Show the world hate, and jellousy... Be violent, and harm others.... and watch what your life becomes.

The system is perfect my friend... It is God...

Its unfortunate most don't realize it

Originally posted by Akragon

Originally posted by boymonkey74
reply to post by Akragon

 

Sorry to barge in you say I quote ..Karma is real bro... its proveable
Can you prove it to me then cheers

Yes... but you need to see it for yourself to prove it...

Show another man/woman love... That love will be returned...

Show Generosity... and it will be returned in a positive way in your life.

Show compassion and forgiveness, and you will be forgiven...

Show selflessness which is love.... and your life will flow with positivity...

On the other hand...

Show the world hate, and jellousy... Be violent, and harm others.... and watch what your life becomes.

The system is perfect my friend... It is God...

Its unfortunate most don't realize it

Those are wonderful ideas but you know that is not the case. There have been many times love was unreciprocated, and people have been generous just to be taken advantage of. It is only when you direct those things toward someone who is willing to appreciate it and give back, that it has worked.

Forgiveness also is found toward people who have murdered loved ones, grace is shown where a hurt was given. Just because we think it is all rainbows and ice cream cones, because it sounds nice, is not reality.

Originally posted by lonewolf19792000

Originally posted by HeavenWolf
reply to post by lonewolf19792000

 

First off yes Jews do/can have long hair.. I have long hair, and a beard. Jews are commanded NOT to round their head, because it is a form of shaming, same with the four corners of the beard, when it is shaved off other then the purpose of renewal/rebirth (see Nazirite vow).

Second Jews can be white, mexicans can be white, africans can be white, so please stop with that bit.. it gets no where.

True repentance comes from above, you see that you have gone down the wrong road, and head back to the beginning. In Hebrew the word is Teshuba, which means to turn around. Paul writes that he hates part of himself and wishes he could just cut/tear the good from bad. Saul when he opened his eyes and seen the Messiah, he repented, meaning his love for G-d and the Messiah was as deep as his hatred was.

Something I would like to throw out there is that everything that exists today, has a spirit. Because G-d breathed life into it. G-d lays Adam on a slab after making his body, and breathes life into him. It is said when G-d created the word He sang 10 words, and the earth came into being (by His breath).

Apprently you missed my frame of referrence when i said jews in Jesus' time and back in his day you'd be pretty hardpressed to find a jew that was not of hebrew decent because they typically did not marry outside their ethnicity, nor did they convert and when they did marry many times they married distant cousins. It was illegal in those days for a non-jew (gentile) to even approach a jew or initate dialogue with them, this law didn't apply to Romans because they were conquered by the Romans and the Romans did not care as Caesar Vespasian proved when he set up a statue of himself in the temple before it was destroyed which led the the 70 A.D. revolt.

Except for Herod, who was half-Jewish.
These one-liner answers are hard to do, considering we need a second line..

reply to post by Akragon

In reality one knows Christ hes very hard to sin against your brother... He is not a scapegoat for your sins.... Only you are accountable for your deeds... And Karma sees to that.

That's only half right. Jesus is the only way out of this mess. With his blood covering you, you are wiped clean of your sins and made whole. You may not believe the bible, but i do and what is written in the new testament is backed up by the old testament by prophecies. His death on the cross was explicity to make him the "scapegoat" once and for all hence why he is called "the Lamb of God", he was the ultimate blood sacrifice. The very second prophecy of the Torah about Jesus is written in Genesis chapter 5 written in the 10 names from Adam to Noah.

Adam = Man
Seth = Appointed
Enosh = Mortal
Cainen = Sorrow
Mahalalel = The Blessed God
Jared = Shall Come Down
Enoch = Teaching
Methuselah = His Death Shall Bring
Lamech = The Despairing
Noah = Rest/Comfort

The first prophecy was in Genesis Ch, 3

So the LORD God said to the serpent, “Because you have done this,

Genesis 3:14-15
14“Cursed are you above all livestock and all wild animals! You will crawl on your belly
and you will eat dust all the days of your life.
15 And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; he will crush your head, and you will strike his heel.”

After God was done talking to the three of them, Adam named his wife Eve which means "spring of life" and then God banished them from Eden.

These are the first 2 prophecies God gave to Moses concerning the Messiah. So you see, names have meaning. Jesus' hebrew name Yahshua means "God rescues". I am sorry but it is there, prophecies of salvation all throughout the bible both old and new testaments. Karma only goes so far, because there is no power greater than the living God not even "karma".