believers in jesus...please explain this..

Originally posted by WarminIndy

Originally posted by Akragon

Originally posted by boymonkey74
reply to post by Akragon

 

Sorry to barge in you say I quote ..Karma is real bro... its proveable
Can you prove it to me then cheers

Yes... but you need to see it for yourself to prove it...

Show another man/woman love... That love will be returned...

Show Generosity... and it will be returned in a positive way in your life.

Show compassion and forgiveness, and you will be forgiven...

Show selflessness which is love.... and your life will flow with positivity...

On the other hand...

Show the world hate, and jellousy... Be violent, and harm others.... and watch what your life becomes.

The system is perfect my friend... It is God...

Its unfortunate most don't realize it

Those are wonderful ideas but you know that is not the case. There have been many times love was unreciprocated, and people have been generous just to be taken advantage of. It is only when you direct those things toward someone who is willing to appreciate it and give back, that it has worked.

Forgiveness also is found toward people who have murdered loved ones, grace is shown where a hurt was given. Just because we think it is all rainbows and ice cream cones, because it sounds nice, is not reality.

Love isn't always reciprocated by the individual that you show it to... but it does and will come back to you in some way... Though showing love for the sake or reward is also selfish...

It is reality my friend... Showing love to your brothers and sisters is the same as showing God love...

Believe me, he always returns the favor... so to speak

Test it for yourself

i think God knows that not everyone will hear the good news... but this is what i think:

i believe God speak to everyone in this life, except that we do not see what He is trying to say because of our human nature that makes us live for our short time on earth. Not necessarily speak, but show them with events in their life; events in their lives that would eventually lead them to live a holy, righteous life. like when you meet God, you won't have any excuses, because God will reveal how He was trying to talk to you throughout your entire life.
+ the more you know, the more you will be held accountable for.

Originally posted by Akragon


Love isn't always reciprocated by the individual that you show it to... but it does and will come back to you in some way... Though showing love for the sake or reward is also selfish...

It is reality my friend... Showing love to your brothers and sisters is the same as showing God love...

Believe me, he always returns the favor... so to speak

Test it for yourself

I would love to believe that, but I have to ask this, how did the child and wife of Guatama Buddha feel when he turned love away from them to search for enlightenment out there? He was an absentee father and left his wife to raise their child alone, doesn't that say something about his character when he was the one who came up with this idea of karma?

He called them unnecessary because they were material while he went around begging for material things to nourish his body. Karma is an excuse. People have used it to think they can get out of responsibility and accountability in this life. Guatama Buddha was a jerk. He called himself enlightened, but how much higher than nirvana can he have gone and not still been accountable for his actions? He was supposed to have been the first to reach nirvana, he could not have to go through karmic cycles any more, but he still left his child without a father, because he was selfish.

reply to post by WarminIndy


Im sorry i don't speak for other peoples actions...

I speak for myself and no one else...

As i've said, Karma isn't an excuse for anything... You are responsible for your own actions. You create your own positive and negitive Karma... Both of which WILL come back to you, in this life or the next...

Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by WarminIndy

 

Im sorry i don't speak for other peoples actions...

I speak for myself and no one else...

As i've said, Karma isn't an excuse for anything... You are responsible for your own actions. You create your own positive and negitive Karma... Both of which WILL come back to you, in this life or the next...

You might not speak for another person's actions, but your belief system is based on his actions and words. It is your belief system that speaks for yourself, therefore, his actions and words have defined your actions, because you keep them.

In this life, yes. I believe the next life is either with God or in the place without God, without the chance to make it right. Eternal cycles of karma, just to get it right, is unnecessary energy wasted.

Originally posted by WarminIndy

Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by WarminIndy

 

Im sorry i don't speak for other peoples actions...

I speak for myself and no one else...

As i've said, Karma isn't an excuse for anything... You are responsible for your own actions. You create your own positive and negitive Karma... Both of which WILL come back to you, in this life or the next...

You might not speak for another person's actions, but your belief system is based on his actions and words. It is your belief system that speaks for yourself, therefore, his actions and words have defined your actions, because you keep them.

In this life, yes. I believe the next life is either with God or in the place without God, without the chance to make it right. Eternal cycles of karma, just to get it right, is unnecessary energy wasted.

edit on 12/28/2011 by WarminIndy because: (no reason given)

Some of his words i agree with... but that does not mean his actions define my beliefs.

I also agree with some of the words of many different belief systems, but the fathers of those belief systems and their actions also do not define my beliefs.

Theres only one man whos actions define my beliefs... And i try to live his example every day of my life.

How would reincarnation be wasted energy? Considering energy can't be created or destroyed?

Originally posted by WarminIndy
I would love to believe that, but I have to ask this, how did the child and wife of Guatama Buddha feel when he turned love away from them to search for enlightenment out there? He was an absentee father and left his wife to raise their child alone, doesn't that say something about his character when he was the one who came up with this idea of karma?

I did this too.

But to serve my country...

Originally posted by WarminIndy
He called them unnecessary because they were material while he went around begging for material things to nourish his body. Karma is an excuse. People have used it to think they can get out of responsibility and accountability in this life. Guatama Buddha was a jerk. He called himself enlightened, but how much higher than nirvana can he have gone and not still been accountable for his actions? He was supposed to have been the first to reach nirvana, he could not have to go through karmic cycles any more, but he still left his child without a father, because he was selfish.

There are higher ideals than what is right in front of your face.

So he did not raise one wife and one child.

He raised millions more.

His child still grew up, and under the watchful eye of the ONE father that watches us all.

With Love,

Your Brother

This question is not so hard.

In the Ancient days the average person knew little about what took place outside of their own land. Only such people like missionaries and military personnel took the task of traveling long distances. Most of what is beyond their own land was a mystery to the people who inhabited different parts of the worlds.

On the other hand Jesus Christ actually traveled across of most of the East in order to spread his message. If the continents of the west were known to the people of the East then maybe he would've traveled more and spread his message to these civilizations which originate in the west, like the Mayans.

I hope this helps.

Think in terms of technology and what was known about the Earth in those days up until the Europeans discovered America.

The civilizations of the west underwent evolution without spiritual guidance while the land of the east was the center of creation for the first spiritual beings Adam and Eve. Who were endowed with holy wisdom since the beginning. This is my personal belief.

Originally posted by IAMIAM

Originally posted by WarminIndy

I did this too.

But to serve my country...

First of all, thank you for service. But more than that, you served that your child could live free where it is.

Here is a quote from the Buddha

I never see what has been done; I only see what remains to be done.

Does he mean he does not see what he did to a small child and wife that depended on him for emotional support?

Without health life is not life; it is only a state of langour and suffering - an image of death.

Was he concerned with the emotional health of a child that depended on him? What about his wife? He married his wife when he was 16, he left her after 13 years of marriage when he was 29. To me, it sounds just like the guys who "go out for a carton of cigarettes and never come back".

And this is why he did it

You can search throughout the entire universe for someone who is more deserving of your love and affection than you are yourself, and that person is not to be found anywhere. You yourself, as much as anybody in the entire universe deserve your love and affection.

He had a wife he could have loved, but she apparently was not worthy of him because he loved himself more. There is nothing special about Guatama Buddha, he was a jerk and got away with it because of who he was.

There are higher ideals than what is right in front of your face.

So he did not raise one wife and one child.

He raised millions more.

His child still grew up, and under the watchful eye of the ONE father that watches us all.

With Love,

Your Brother

Did he say anywhere in his teachings that he was leaving the care of his child up to the father? He did not even believe in the One father, he believed only in himself. He didn't care for millions of people...and the question is..if you can't even be faithful in taking care of one, how can you be trusted to take care of millions? His higher ideals were what?

The secret of health for both mind and body is not to mourn for the past, nor to worry about the future, but to live the present moment wisely and earnestly.

He lived for his moment, without mourning over anything else he did. That is not a higher ideal, that is a complete shirk of duty and responsibility.

Carpe diem, Buddha, carpe diem. Eat, drink and be merry, for tomorrow we may die.

reply to post by WarminIndy


Wow, how sad Indy, I never knew that about Buddha.

Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by WarminIndy

 

The idea is you learn from your mistakes so as not to repeat them in the future... Its also not about having millions of chances to "get it right" either... That would also likely be a reason the church didn't teach reincarnation... They would have no control if people knew they lived more then once...

I like this.

Your lessons will keep showing up until you learn your lessons. Those people you don't like out there, they are just lessons. They are you, just in other clothes. Those people will go away once you learn your lesson from them. That's all this is...it's all about lessons.

Reincarnation doesn't exist because we have never lived in order to be reborn. Maybe we did "once," and fell, and then can be reborn again, that the jury is still out for me about it.

Life isn't living, it is only the darkness. To find Christ is to live. I agree with you half way about "millions of chances." We have endless chances living in the dark to get it right, until we here the call. If you pass on your spot to take it once we hear the call, then the lessons stop appearing and eternity awaits your choice. Until the call comes through clear, there will be millions of chances for you to hear it. Reincarnation of "this reality" will keep happening until the door is closed because you made the wrong choice. Reincarnation in general doesn't exist though because we have never lived yet. To live is to follow Christ. What one calls living or born, is just their reality, but not truly ever being alive at all. Maybe we are at the in-between place and caught here until we learn the lesson, and make that final permanent choice.

Then again, I have really no idea...just toying with some new ideas as they come. Ugg...my head is just throttling right now.

Originally posted by k1k1to
according to many religions...mostly christianity


the way to avoid damnation and eternal punishment in hell....is to accept jesus christ as your lord and savior.

my question is? what about the mayans? the ancient egyptians? the incas? cavemen etc...what about them? how were they to accept jesus christ as their savior when he wasnt even born yet? are they to live in eternal hell for this?

how were the natives living in north america supposed to know jesus was born? why was he born in a certain part of the planet, and not the other? that doesnt seem fair..


i hate paradoxes

Let me start off by saying I had the very same questions. As a child I would ask these types of questions in Sunday School and to other adults at the church my Mom took me to and would get the answer that yes, they were all going to hell! I could not accept that as it did not make any sense. It started me on a journey of discovery. I looked into all beliefs that I could find, both light and dark. None seemed cover what I thought it should cover, all of humanity if not all of creation. I began to think, if God created the entire Universe (and I've always believed there were other planets with "people") then he would love them all. When I was in college I had just about given up, everything I found pretty much was self-contained. Meaning the students of that particular faith/belief/religion were going to be saved and all others were lost. Then I was introduced to The Urantia Book (www.urantia.org...) and it completely changed my view.

The way God is explained in The Urantia Book is that he is no respecter of persons, so he doesn't love one mortal/planet/universe more than another, he loves us the same. No matter what our faith or belief, even if what religion that person has can scarcely be called one. He responds to the faintest flicker of faith. It teaches that God has never revealed himself by name, only nature. So it does not matter what you call him. He is the First Source and Center of all creation.

It also talks about existence as an eternal progression. Each stage of existence is higher and greater than the one we just left. Earth (Urantia) is our birth place, but the universe is our playground. Once we pass through the portal of death we begin the next phase of existence which is something more than material, but less than spirit. A spirit existence is our goal, but we don't get there by just dying. We basically start off where we left off on Earth. Death adds nothing to your personal experience except the fact of survival. You awaken on the next world knowing that its you, but you no longer have your body from Earth, you are in a different form and you pick up where you left off.

The initial worlds mortals go to after death are meant to progress us to the state that our world will achieve in the remote future. The era of Light and Life is what the Urantia Book calls it. Utopia is what most people call the perfect world. One of the purposes of this career is to effect the permanent eradication from the mortal survivors of such animal vestigial traits as procrastination, equivocation, insincerity, problem avoidance, unfairness, and ease seeking. This first life after death early teaches the young pupils that postponement is in no sense avoidance. After the life in the flesh, time is no longer available as a technique of dodging situations or of circumventing disagreeable obligations.

So as you can see the initial experience after death for all mortals is to give each individual a chance no matter what life they led on Earth. Of course we all have a choice, God compels no one. Even though God does not force this life after death on anyone, I believe he gives people a chance to make an intelligent decision. There are many people on Earth who don't believe in God for various reasons. I think many will change their stance once they awaken after death, but if they don't God respects their personal decision. They cease to exist, they are is if they never were. There is no eternal punishment for those who do not wish to go on.

Originally posted by WarminIndy
Carpe diem, Buddha, carpe diem. Eat, drink and be merry, for tomorrow we may die.

Why do you dig up the dead to examine THEIR life my friend?

Are their none living that need YOUR love?

Have you perfected YOUR life and the life of those around you and now wish to do the same to the dead?

He who crawls in tombs IS dead.

With Love,

Your Brother

reply to post by UB2120

So as you can see the initial experience after death for all mortals is to give each individual a chance no matter what life they led on Earth. Of course we all have a choice, God compels no one. Even though God does not force this life after death on anyone, I believe he gives people a chance to make an intelligent decision. There are many people on Earth who don't believe in God for various reasons. I think many will change their stance once they awaken after death, but if they don't God respects their personal decision. They cease to exist, they are is if they never were. There is no eternal punishment for those who do not wish to go on.

I agree with this... Though i also believe if one has a deep fear of Hell his actions within life might land them in such a place...

Also in the case of one that doesn't believe his own soul exists... perhaps in the end it might not, though again that would depend on his life as well...

I believe God might still fogive such a person if he still led a loving life... Some say we all get a "last chance" to realize the spirit at death...

reply to post by k1k1to


Gen 1: In the the beginning God....

John 1: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Gen 1: And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness...

According to Scripture God is Man, Jesus the Son of Man, and we are mankind, the first of which being Adam. Hence God and knowledge of Him has always been present and available to all generations and geneologies only some decided to turn away while others remained determined to keep the faith.

Before the law there was righteousness through faith as exemplified in Abraham which has been the plan all along. However, because God first shed blood in the garden to cloth adam and eve, as a sign He required the shedding of blood for remission of sins and then gave His Son to die that through faith we might be saved.

Notice the first two and greatest commandments start with Love. All the law is fulfilled in one thing, Love.

In conclusion, salvation has always been based on faith and God has made himself known throughout all generations so instead of concerning ourselves with that which we dont comprehend, let us judge ourselves whether we be in the faith or not.

Originally posted by IAMIAM

Originally posted by WarminIndy
Carpe diem, Buddha, carpe diem. Eat, drink and be merry, for tomorrow we may die.

Why do you dig up the dead to examine THEIR life my friend?

Are their none living that need YOUR love?

Have you perfected YOUR life and the life of those around you and now wish to do the same to the dead?

He who crawls in tombs IS dead.

With Love,

Your Brother

Are you implying the words of a person are separate from their motivation for saying it? A faith system was created while the man was still living. Are you afraid of the challenge against the life of Budhha? Is it uncomfortable when you consider what he did?

Wonderful concept you have, just ignore the person but hold to their words. We do that with Thomas Jefferson every time we invoke Constitutional rights and our Declaration of Independence. We overlook his life because it is more convenient for us. By doing so, we also deny the terrible things they did, because we want to embrace a mere image.

You seem offended that I offend Guatama Buddha, as though he is above scrutiny. But his words created a faith system. A person speaks words from their inward thoughts and motivations, they don't just mumble meaningless words that dry up once they hit the air, words are forever and nothing you can do can ever erase the fact that you said it. The ramifications for saying words can be forever,with nothing we can do to change the fact that we said it.

Was Guatama Buddha a good man? No, he was not. Thomas Jefferson was not a good man either, considering everything he did. We choose to follow the way we want, if we want to believe Enlightenment is the way to go, then fine, but don't overlook his own motivation for saying what he said. We have the Constitution, but we do not overlook Thomas Jefferson, we choose to follow it because it is the only law we know.

The difference between the two men, Guatama Buddha did his own thing for selfish purposes, Thomas Jefferson did his own thing under penalty of death so he and his neighbors could live in a free country. We can't excuse either of them though, because they deeply harmed innocent people.

And to answer your question about my perfection it is claimed Guatama Buddha achieved the highest enlightenment, nirvana, because he was the Buddha. He couldn't get any higher. In his height of perfection, he didn't acknowledge the harm he caused and the same harm that comes from his faith system to this day.

reply to post by WarminIndy


Buddha had to walk his own path... And considering he was born of a royal family, im sure his wife and child were still quite comfortable...

Its known that he loved his wife and child, but saw the suffering in the world and wanted to find how to end it...

His lessons were a gift to the world through his suffering...

"I teach about suffering and the way to end it" - Siddharta Gautama

Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by UB2120

 

So as you can see the initial experience after death for all mortals is to give each individual a chance no matter what life they led on Earth. Of course we all have a choice, God compels no one. Even though God does not force this life after death on anyone, I believe he gives people a chance to make an intelligent decision. There are many people on Earth who don't believe in God for various reasons. I think many will change their stance once they awaken after death, but if they don't God respects their personal decision. They cease to exist, they are is if they never were. There is no eternal punishment for those who do not wish to go on.

I agree with this... Though i also believe if one has a deep fear of Hell his actions within life might land them in such a place...

Also in the case of one that doesn't believe his own soul exists... perhaps in the end it might not, though again that would depend on his life as well...

I believe God might still fogive such a person if he still led a loving life... Some say we all get a "last chance" to realize the spirit at death...

edit on 29-12-2011 by Akragon because: (no reason given)

I don't want to make it seem as if our actions in life have no effects to our afterlife, because they do. Basically only good survives, and your soul is born with your first moral decision. It is different for everyone because what is profound to one may not be to another. God does take into account your origins, environment and circumstances. Which again is different for everyone. One thing the Urantia Book teaches is your relationship with God is between you and God. There is no one else in between. So if someone didn't have much good in their life then their soul would not have developed much. A good analogy might be school grade levels. One person may be at grade level 6th whereas another could be 1st grade. It's a crude analogy, but I hope you see what I am trying to say.

Originally posted by k1k1to
according to many religions...mostly christianity


the way to avoid damnation and eternal punishment in hell....is to accept jesus christ as your lord and savior.

my question is? what about the mayans? the ancient egyptians? the incas? cavemen etc...what about them? how were they to accept jesus christ as their savior when he wasnt even born yet? are they to live in eternal hell for this?

how were the natives living in north america supposed to know jesus was born? why was he born in a certain part of the planet, and not the other? that doesnt seem fair..

i hate paradoxes

Good question!

The Bible doesn't teach that anyone goes to hell there is no such place - hellfire and eternal punishment was just another twisted pollution of Christianity that Christendom adopted, which was used to control people.

Hades or Sheol merely means the common grave of mankind.

Instead what the scriptures teach is that when you die "you are conscious of nothing"

The Bible does teach about a future ressurection hope for everyone, but then people need to ask themselves where did Jesus resurrect people back to?.... the earth that's where. Did he rescue Lazarus from burning in hell or yank him out of heaven? Not at all Jesus said he was asleep in death and he was awakening him from that sleep.

We need to hear Jesus words on the subject and dig a little further to see that what he was referring to was a future resurrection of mankind when the Earth will have been transformed into the paradise it once was.

(John 5:28-29) . . .Do not marvel at this,(the raising of Lazarus) because the hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice and come out, . . .

Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by WarminIndy

 

Buddha had to walk his own path... And considering he was born of a royal family, im sure his wife and child were still quite comfortable...

Its known that he loved his wife and child, but saw the suffering in the world and wanted to find how to end it...

His lessons were a gift to the world through his suffering...

"I teach about suffering and the way to end it" - Siddharta Gautama

Actually, royal women in ancient India were not treated well at all. Royal Women in Ancient India

And we know that one of the rituals in ancient India, and practiced until recently, was when a Raja died, his wife was burned to death on a funeral pyre.

When Guatam Buddha left his wife, he didn't just leave her in the care of his family, he was basically saying to the kingdom she came from (and literally given away from) that he had no use for her. This left her without family.

It is myth that Women held very important position in ancient Indian society. Today I have come up with some proofs that show that in ancient India, life of women was pathetic and they had very low status in the society. We have many evidences of suppression and ill-treatment of women in Ancient Indo-Aryan society. Most of the problems like Child Marriages, Dowry system, Bride-Burning; No rights in their paternal property, Mass Wife-Burning (Jauhar) and Widow-Burning (Sati) have their roots in ancient India.

Did he set about to change the way it was for women by placing his own wife in that same suffering position? If he really wanted to change the way it was, he could have done that in his own home. He did not see the suffering he caused because in his world, that is the way it was. That makes him a hypocrite.
Life of Woman in Ancient India

What did Buddha change? Did he bring relief to the suffering of women? No, he was only concerned with easing it for men.