The Santa Myth: Should we perpetuate the lie to children?

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic

Finding out that my mom and dad lied to me did make a pretty serious impression on me. It wasn't about Santa, it was about trust.

That..................is ridiculous. I hope you haven't told your parents how you feel about this, they'd feel really hurt that you took it this way and let me tell you that you are dead wrong to feel it was a trust issue, dead wrong. I'm glad my parents kept up the myth as long as they could, I have every respect for them for doing so.

reply to post by Jenna


I'm sorry, I disagree, some people are absolutely not able to lie.

It doesn't mean they have to be rude or hurtful or tell everything that happens in the world to everyone. It means not saying anything that is not true. Some things are best left unsaid and sometimes you can find something positive about a difficult situation if my friend looks awful in a dress, I'd say "nah, but the blue one looks fantastic and brings out your eyes' " or something. I would not feel right otherwise.

There is always a way to be honest and avoid being hurtful or scaring kids.

Modern Santa is a pointless lie. The truth is nicer and has better morals.

Jesus Christ on a bike.........

Come on now, I'm all for UFOs and JFK but Santa Claus is the finest perpetuated and indoctrinated myth.

Sometimes it's good to tell children life is better than it really is, otherwise where is the hope......?

Any Santa deniers must live in a world of doom.

Merry Chrimbo.

Originally posted by Jenna
No one can honestly say they never lie to anyone about anything.

And I didn't say that. I have tried to be VERY clear that I'm talking about parents speaking to a child, only.

Telling a child a half-truth about something and telling them only the bits they can handle is the same thing.

The definition you gave:

A statement, especially one intended to deceive, that omits some of the facts necessary for a full description or account.

My position is that a full description or account is not necessary or even desired in many cases when dealing with a child. Subjects such as death, murder, child molestation, etc, need to be handled carefully. Giving the child enough information for him to feel that his curiosity is satisfied, while making sure what I do say is true, is what I am advocating.

If you want to call that a half-truth, that's fine. But my position is that I don't believe it is ever necessary to lie to one's child about anything.

You're arguing against the very thing you're advocating.

I am not. That's ridiculous. A misunderstanding perhaps. Why don't you find where I am "arguing against the very thing I'm advocating" and we'll clear it up. Show me the contradictory statements.

reply to post by Threegirls


What you and BH are failing to recognize though is that telling your friend that the blue dress looks better when she's asking about the red one is a half-truth. You are deliberately withholding information "The red dress looks awful", which makes it a lie of omission. You're telling your friend half of the truth, but withholding the rest because you don't want to upset her. Calling it anything other than a half-truth is just playing semantics.

Originally posted by samerulesapply
What I do find odd is that it's not very common for kids to buy each other or their parents gifts.

Ok, so most kids don't earn money, some have jobs, etc, sure. For most kids the only source of "income" for want of a better word is pocket money given to them by parents/family etc. The truth is real gifts and acts of kindness (the true spirit of christmas) don't need to cost a small fortune. Why have we ended up in a world where it does need to cost an arm and a leg?

In my experience the majority of kids these days have this attitude where it's like..."But...but this is my money,! Why should I spend it on someone else?" not all kids, but most and let's not lie to ourselves about that fact.

If the true value of christmas being passed on to kids is about how it's a magical time and about giving, kindness and generosity, why are kids becoming more and more selfish? They expect so much but don't give much, I don't have kids of my own, I've a niece and nephew, I don't want them to scrimp and scrape in order to buy me something expensive...I know it's kinda corny but it IS actually the thought that counts. It is magic when a child takes the time to make someone even a card because the child wanted to. Kids mostly do these things in school because their teachers tell them to..."Ok, kids... let's make a nice christmas card for our parents!". When a child makes someone a gift of their own accord it's truly innocent and meaningful - sadly, kids these days ain't programmed to think this way...

It's not the kids faults, it's ours - modern society who have taught kids that christmas is actually about greed and excess, have you seen the letters kids write to santa?

"Dear Santa - I want an i-Pad...and, and I want an i-Phone...and, and a laptop computer...and, and like...lot's of money..."

The true magic of christmas is where one child buys another child something wtih little monatery value (or no value...like something they made themselves perhaps) without being told to do so or having it politely suggested by an adult. In my experience this isn't so common these days, I wonder why?

It's okay to perpetuate a lie that promotes selfishness and greed...better yet it's ok to base the whole lie around something that is acutally quite meaningful to a lot of people...the birth of christ and the lesser-known actions of Saint Nicholas, yeah... it's ok. We've been getting it so wrong for years people don't even see the obvious.

For those who give, and received, during this festive season, without understanding the reasons and true value behind, had been a senseless cause regardless of those with faith or atheists.

It is the values that we must impart upon our next generation that truly matters, the truth to those children of age whom are capable of processing information, and simpler explanations to incapable yet of complex thoughts kids without diluting the true essence of giving and receiving.

It's also about never to give in to rampant consumerism of our age, but spending within one means that we must also impart. T

he rich must not be miserly, nor the poor cold and aloof to their loved ones, for none stays rich, or poor forever, so long as our society never to forget our egalitarian promise to each other, more so in this period of time when two thousand and eleven years ago, a mortal child was sent by our Creator who loved us all, to guide us onto a better path to evolution....

Originally posted by Threegirls
reply to post by OwenGP185

 

Ah yes, and the problem is, the 'Santa' lie is the reason that it is so out of control.

No matter how much you are struggling financially, you can not say to your child "we don't have any money for the presents you want this year, I'm sorry and love you very much" because you don't get them 'he' does and the only thing that determines if you get what you want is if you are naughty or nice.

Santa is a cute story but it takes nothing from the holiday to say it is just a story and we buy the presents. It will not even upset them but may help to rein in the farce of overspending. They will also believe you when you say lying is wrong, it's all good.

Namaste

I see what you are saying, I am not even religious so it’s not like I want to protect the Christian values behind it. I just believe kids feed of stories, if they know its not real it might not take away from the day but it still ruins a bit of that magic for them. Why take that away just so you can explain that our adult money was tight this year but he is not real, that kid will either be upset or happy whether they believe in him or not. I don’t even have kids but when I do I can image myself telling them many stories, part of their growing up will be finding out dad was pretending but Im older now and I can outsmart him. Stories have valuable lessons, why does Santa have to bring presents anyway, maybe he could bring them an old watch with special powers? It doesn’t have to be the latest toy to mean something to the child.

Wow... I'm shocked that an adult (i'm assuming because he/she had children/child) of any level of intelligence was unable to field and handle this situation.

I have kids and I've been there and as the adult with a higher level of knowledge and life experience, had no problem, what so ever, handling these situations with my kids.

It's sad that inept individuals cause us to raise such notions as doing away with Santa... Very Sad!

reply to post by FlySolo


I'm not going to. Christmas will be a time to remember its religious significance in my future. Some dead saint is a great history lesson, but not this made up myth it's become.

Okay...

Do we all agree that a gift is an act of thoughtfulness and kindness and not necessarily something that costs money? I'm gonna stick my neck out here and assume that most people would agree with that.

So, let's try an experiment...I've got some gifts for my neice and nephew, not expensive, to be honest I picked them because of the packaging...I kinda thought they reminded me of christmas when I was a kid, I looked and thought to myself, "man, I'd have been excited as hell if I unwrapped that as a kid".

I want them to have fun like I did at their age, I can't lie and say I never loved christmas as a kid, we all do...I just recognise why we do...we're programmed to from an early age.

So aswell as giving them some toys I bought, I'm also going to make them something, I dunno what and only have a couple of days...so any ideas or suggestions will be appreciated. I don't want to make something like a card, more something like a traditional game or something, something that's actually fun but mostly forgotten because its not available for the nintendo ds or playstation.

I'm gonna give them this home made gift and the gifts I bought and see which they prefer...I might even give them the homemade one first and pretend that's all to see how they react ( is that cruelty, or a fun lie?) it'll be nice if they show genuine interest - ikely that they won't. Everyone give it a go and see what happens.

I have little doubt that most kids will be disappointed...some won't even hide their disappointment. And to me, that is proof that the modern day concept of christmas promotes selfishness and greed in kids.

Originally posted by Jenna
reply to post by Threegirls

 

You are deliberately withholding information "The red dress looks awful", which makes it a lie of omission. You're telling your friend half of the truth, but withholding the rest because you don't want to upset her. Calling it anything other than a half-truth is just playing semantics.

So, call it a half-truth. I don't care what it's called. But giving truthful information (I like the blue one better) is not lying... "The red dress looks wonderful" is lying. The information is untrue.

We agree, we're just arguing semantics.

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
Giving the child enough information for him to feel that his curiosity is satisfied, while making sure what I do say is true, is what I am advocating.

But my position is that I don't believe it is ever necessary to lie to one's child about anything.

I am not. That's ridiculous. A misunderstanding perhaps. Why don't you find where I am "arguing against the very thing I'm advocating" and we'll clear it up.

Show me the contradictory statements.

The first two quotes up there are contradictory. You say it's only necessary to give bits of information, which fits the very definition of a half-truth, followed by saying we shouldn't lie. Only giving half of the information to a child because you believe that's all they can handle is a half-truth, but if it's never necessary to lie then you would never need to withhold any information. It's contradictory. You can't have it both ways.


If it is never necessary to lie, then we should tell the whole truth in answer to a child's question. If it is sometimes necessary to withhold details because they aren't capable of processing it, then it's sometimes necessary to tell them half-truths which are lies in fancy clothes.

Edit: Didn't see the post right above this one til I posted this, so I'll wait before responding to it. Don't want us to end up having two of the same conversation in the same thread.
Edit 2: Also, I hate it when I insert edits into the middle of my post instead of the end...

reply to post by 0010110011101


Woah! Why would you think that? My girls live in a world of possibilities but do not believe known myths.

They know life probably exists on other planets, (more than likely) we discuss it and image what forms they may take what the planet, trees animals ect could look like.

They saw a child dying in the road outside, this made the death conversation happen, we discuss the possibilities of the next phase of existence, of past life experiences, of other people beliefs ect and we talked about what made sense to us.

How can anyone think that such a daft lie is in any way as amazing as the many incredible possibilities that we have?

Namaste

Originally posted by Threegirls
reply to post by 0010110011101

 

Woah! Why would you think that? My girls live in a world of possibilities but do not believe known myths.

They know life probably exists on other planets, (more than likely) we discuss it and image what forms they may take what the planet, trees animals ect could look like.

How can anyone think that such a daft lie is in any way as amazing as the many incredible possibilities that we have?

It is good that you took the time to discuss about it with your kids.

But do know the fact they are what they are kids, and you , an adult. Adults are matured only because of the sum of their education and experiences in life, but kids are only starting out, more so if they are pre-schoolers, and may not be able to have the maturity to comprehend yet of what had been discussed, and may affect them later in life.

Thus, do be catious in your dealings with kids, the way a teacher would never teach calculas or orbital mechanics to a first grader.

Nice to see everyone jumping in here. I would like to reply to those who have taken the time to respond to my thread so I'll make a general statement to reiterate my conjecture.

"Let Children be children and not grow up to fast"

I fail to see how one myth once a year can possibly affect any child's imagination. It is in my opinion the only ones who are really fooling anyone is the parents themselves. If, as a parent, you decide to look introspectively into yourself, you will see it is you who is living vicariously in your child's imagination. It is for your benefit, not the child's. Especially when your kid is already on to you, but yet it continues...

"There is no harm in telling them Santa is real"

Well, I don't want to speak for you but for myself, I have a conscience. I don't lie about anything and this is how I was raised. If you can sit there straight faced and still feel warm and fuzzy lying to your kids about it, then I would seriously ask what values and hypocrisy you may be teaching?

"It's about the magic of Christmas"

As many other posters have pointed out, there is magic all around us. Every day of the year. I would even venture further to say we should be giving gifts anytime we feel and not limit it to just Xmas. I also fail to see how magical Christmas is when pretty much everyone I know can't wait for it to be over. Raise your hand if you if you're not.

"You must have had a bad childhood"

My childhood wasn't the greatest but I can assure you it had absolutely nothing to do with Santa.

"Santa is about learning to give during Xmas"

Children don't learn to give until they're out of the Santa phase. Ironically, it's when the realization sets in that Santa isn't real is when children learn the true meaning of Christmas. Absolute bullocks with that argument.

"Kids with rich parents get better presents"

Yes. Bad bad bad lesson there.

Santa is an outdated custom which has evolved into a tool for corporations. While you as parent may not see it that way, the corporations do. This is a fact and you already know this. But yet we continue to line up at the mall placing screaming kids on Santa's lap. What the hell is going on? If you choose to be one of those people and your child is ok with it, fine. However, if your child is terrified and yet you insist, shame on you.

Originally posted by Threegirls
reply to post by blueorder

 

Do you really not see all of the amazing things we are surrounded by? I obviously am not referring to things a child would find disturbing!

I taught my children the joy of meditation recently, I show them truth and emphasize the beauty and wonder of life. They are amazed at the things you have chosen to ignore.

Shame.

Namaste

you have no idea what I show my kids, shame on you for your judgement

Originally posted by Jenna
Only giving half of the information to a child because you believe that's all they can handle is a half-truth, but if it's never necessary to lie then you would never need to withhold any information. It's contradictory. You can't have it both ways.

So, to you, withholding information is a "half-truth" and a "half-truth" is the same as a lie (in fancy clothes).
To me, it is not. Withholding damaging information from a child is not the same as lying to the child.

For some context, let's talk about two married adults. Let's say I have an affair and I "withhold" that information from my husband... That IS a lie. Because we have an agreement and I have broken the agreement and am obligated to tell him about it, no matter how much it might hurt him. In that case, withholding information would be a lie.

I have no full disclosure agreement with my child. In fact, I have an agreement to protect my child from information that can hurt him, so withholding information is sometimes necessary for his own welfare (which is my responsibility). But to me, withholding information is not the same as offering FALSE information, which is my definition of a lie.

I hope that clears up the confusion.

reply to post by Benevolent Heretic


Not really. You admit withholding part of the truth is a lie when talking to an adult, but deny that it is when talking to a child. You're playing semantics BH. The recipient of the information is irrelevant when determining if something qualifies as a half-truth or a full blown lie. Withholding part of the truth is the definition of a half-truth which is a type of lie.

We'll just have to agree to disagree on what it's called I suppose, cause we're starting to go in circles here. It honestly kinda amuses me since we agree that it's sometimes necessary to withhold information from a child and only disagree on whether or not you should use the term half-truth for it.

Originally posted by FlySolo

"There is no harm in telling them Santa is real"

Well, I don't want to speak for you but for myself, I have a conscience. I don't lie about anything and this is how I was raised. If you can sit there straight faced and still feel warm and fuzzy lying to your kids about it, then I would seriously ask what values and hypocrisy you may be teaching?

Glad that you have a conscience.
So do tell how you explain to your kids about teens indulging in absolute intimacy in public, with both similar or different sexes?
How do you explain to your kids drug addiction and drug medication?
How do you explain to your kids Shias sucide bombing Sunnis?
How do you explain a Saudi woman being stoned for adultry?
How do you explain the differences in skin color and its discriminations?
How do you explain a man in a mercz and another spending nights in the park as home?
How do you explain corporations getting rich while soldiers gets the death sentence for helping them ?

I can go on and on, but you get the drift. I am sure you can explain away those questions I asked to your kids, but how sure are you that you are telling the whole TRUTH and not just part of it?

Much apologies to you, but Let's cut out the holier than thou hypocrisy on your part too.

This is a great thread, FlySolo, you are spot on. Pretty much every adult I know can't wait for it to be over. It isn't because they're miserable killjoys. It's because there's no magic in it, it has been chipped away at over the years.

But nobody I know has made a true statement about it like you've done...and it's interesting to see how split the opinion is on the issue. You made a good point about coprorations turning christmas and santa into a tool...they did this, but it goes deeper than that in my view.

The corporations used it as a tool that they could then use to create other tools, like using a hammer to chisel at a piece of wood, the tool the corporations created has turned people into tools, I don't mean that in a crude sense...people are either scared or too blind to be honest with themselves about it. They created a world where the adults perpetuate the myth under the pretense that it'd be cruel not to. In effect it's a form of mind control and the only way to break it is for everyone to recognise it...nobody is sick or bad because they can't see something, we're all capable of recignising faults and failures and correcting them. But the inability to recognise our ills can't be a good thing.

I strongly urge parents to maaaaaaaake their children even one gift...those who do will can take the results and do as they will, be nice to get some feedback in the next few days.

Those that don't are perhaps scared that their children might not handle it all that well. If we recognise this we might work more on teaching our kids to appreciate the human value of a gift given out of actual love as opposed to a gift given because it's expensive enough to satisfy the recipient.

It's nice to know not everyone has become a "tool" so there is hope I guess.