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The Santa Myth: Should we perpetuate the lie to children?

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posted on Dec, 23 2011 @ 02:59 PM
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reply to post by SeekerofTruth101
 


Thank you, for your concern, be assured I am always mindful of what I tell my girls,I am a very conscientious teacher. My children ask questions all the time and have been encouraged to do so all of their lives. I never duck a question though I sometimes ask for time to research or we research things together.

My children are very tolerant, patient and understanding. They have terrific empathy and a passion for learning.

They are aged 10 and older now, the event was the year before last, we grieved for him together and still talk about their friend now and what he may be up to.

Namaste




posted on Dec, 23 2011 @ 03:04 PM
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Originally posted by Jenna
It honestly kinda amuses me since we agree that it's sometimes necessary to withhold information from a child and only disagree on whether or not you should use the term half-truth for it.


We don't disagree on whether the term "half-truth" should be used.
We disagree on whether the term "lie" should be used.

To me, withholding a possibly damaging truth from a child is not a lie. Giving false information is a lie.



posted on Dec, 23 2011 @ 03:06 PM
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reply to post by Benevolent Heretic
 


You're killing me here BH..


Withholding information is a half-truth which is a lie.



posted on Dec, 23 2011 @ 03:06 PM
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reply to post by eletheia
 


A few pages have past.

But I do..

A fairy tale, is a fairy tale. I tell them... It's just pretend. Every time. They still love the book.

I do all the voices, I play the characters.. but I make sure they know it's pretend

There's a desperate problem on earth at the moment with people being unable to decipher fact from fantasy. Where does that come from??



posted on Dec, 23 2011 @ 03:06 PM
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Thou shalt not bear false witness...


That about sums it up right there. If you are Christian and you lie to your children
you are breaking a commandment.

And I'm not referring to "omitting" truth, as in not telling them about hate crimes or sex
for example, I'm talking about conjuring up a bald-faced lie and telling them that your
lie is truth...it is A SIN before your God.



posted on Dec, 23 2011 @ 03:08 PM
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reply to post by blueorder
 


I talked about the real life amazing wonders in this world and you suggested what?

I made no judgement, you did not point out anything wondrous, you chose to raise a situation a child would find disturbing, ignoring the 'good' things I was referring to (although nature is not a bad thing).

I will not wish shame on you.

Namaste



posted on Dec, 23 2011 @ 03:08 PM
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Originally posted by SeekerofTruth101

Originally posted by FlySolo

"There is no harm in telling them Santa is real"

Well, I don't want to speak for you but for myself, I have a conscience. I don't lie about anything and this is how I was raised. If you can sit there straight faced and still feel warm and fuzzy lying to your kids about it, then I would seriously ask what values and hypocrisy you may be teaching?



Glad that you have a conscience.
So do tell how you explain to your kids about teens indulging in absolute intimacy in public, with both similar or different sexes?
How do you explain to your kids drug addiction and drug medication?
How do you explain to your kids Shias sucide bombing Sunnis?
How do you explain a Saudi woman being stoned for adultry?
How do you explain the differences in skin color and its discriminations?
How do you explain a man in a mercz and another spending nights in the park as home?
How do you explain corporations getting rich while soldiers gets the death sentence for helping them ?

I can go on and on, but you get the drift. I am sure you can explain away those questions I asked to your kids, but how sure are you that you are telling the whole TRUTH and not just part of it?

Much apologies to you, but Let's cut out the holier than thou hypocrisy on your part too.


We're talking about Santa Clause. Not death, destruction, famine, making out in public, racism etc. There is no reason to over-complicate this discussion with adult situations. Further, my disdain for the Santa myth does not make my holier than thou. It's my opinion and if it differs from yours, it doesn't make me above you or anyone.

I don't understand why proponents to Santa have to use the argument. "If you're going to tell your kids Santa isn't real, then why stop there and tell them everything"

If my kid is old enough to know about Sunnis, then chances are they watch the news and deserve an answer equal to the maturity level they have when they first asked the question.



posted on Dec, 23 2011 @ 03:14 PM
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reply to post by Jenna
 



Originally posted by Jenna
Withholding information is a half-truth which is a lie.


I disagree. Withholding information may or may not be a lie. I didn't tell my husband how many times I peed today, but I'm not lying to him.

So, if my 3-year old asks me where babies come from and I answer, "They grow inside a mommy's body and then when they're ready, they come out." I have just lied? Are you serious?

A lie would be, "Mommy calls the stork and then the stork brings her a baby". It's offering false information.



posted on Dec, 23 2011 @ 03:16 PM
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reply to post by SeekerofTruth101
 


What lie could you possibly tell that would make any of that easier to understand or accept?

Kids know people die, kill, take drugs and have sex. You don't have to tell them the ins and outs of everything but they have eyes and ears.

You can not tell them anything which contradicts their eyes and ears. You can not say it never happens.

Namaste



posted on Dec, 23 2011 @ 03:17 PM
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Ah man are people still on this? Okay I think I'm going to post an anecdote about my childhood. I lived with my grandparents and they were big on Santa and Christmas. The never had much money they were both teacher. So when Christmas came around Santa only bought one gift for each of us. Even my grandparents got one for themselves.


On Christmas morning we got to open one present. Then later on in the day the family would come over we would have a big dinner. Once everyone settled down someone was picked to pass out presents to everyone. We'd open have a laugh and put them aside and thank each other even Santa. I wouldn't give up those Christmas memories for the damn world.

When I stopped believing around 6 I think, I wasn't hurt it was just part of growing up. After that it was up to me to keep up the magic and love of Christmas to the rest of the family.

Yes I know not everyone has the best holidays, but even with my family my grandparents always managed to make it work it out like Christmas was the one day their was peace on earth. And when I have a family I can only hope I'm half as good as them.



posted on Dec, 23 2011 @ 03:23 PM
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reply to post by Benevolent Heretic
 


Now you're just being silly. If your husband actually asked how many times you peed today I'd just think you have an odd relationship and your answer would no longer matter since I'd be walking away thinking "Geez those two are such wierdos!!"
Not offering information that wasn't asked for isn't a half-truth or a lie, that wasn't what the issue being discussed was. The issue is whether withholding part of the information asked for is a half-truth. Judging by your last few posts, you've admitted that it is but only if it's an adult you are speaking to. You're still arguing semantics.

Edit:

So, if my 3-year old asks me where babies come from and I answer, "They grow inside a mommy's body and then when they're ready, they come out." I have just lied? Are you serious?


You're completely missing that a half-truth contains part of the truth. This particular answer is not a lie based on the question. If that question were 'how does the baby get inside a mommy's body" then yes, it would be a half-truth. A necessary half-truth since a 3 year old doesn't possess the ability or maturity to understand and process a complete answer, but a half-truth nonetheless.
edit on 12/23/2011 by Jenna because: Forgot a word.



posted on Dec, 23 2011 @ 03:27 PM
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I go to bed and everyone goes nuts


Few POINTS Thus far.

Some people can't see the difference between not perpetuating the LIE, and destroying Christmas entirely.

Santa and Christmas are not mutually exclusive.

Half you people listen to you own words you'll hear yourself say at some point XMAS is about giving... not santa.

IT's A LIE.

A straight out deception to GIVE THE WHOLE story credence.

BUT as a STORY.... it's a story...

You don't have to remove the idea of santa completely, or destroy the image. It's just story. LET THE KIDS know it's a story. EARLY.

There is so much wrong with the world these days and this is one of the problems.

We need change.... on every friggin fundamental level, but if people cannot see that the SANTA "Myth" is about consumerism and making rich bastards richer, then poor fool you.

Ignorance is a dangerous.

And for those arguing the point about "Lies" and "Half Truths".. .. . .

SANTA is a Conspiracy, a deception, a child's first taste of us untrustworthy adults lying to them. To compare that to giving someone a compliment when you don't really like there shoes... That's just being facetious. . .

Your only taking that line because you have nothing...

YOU KNOW IT's a LIE... and there can be no good come of it..

Hell, why don't we just go and tell our kids that a Giant Rabbit, delivers "Eggs" made of chocolate once a year for the kids that are good.... oh we do.... maybe let them think theres a fairy out there collecting human teeth....oh we do....

LIES... ALL of them, and we wonder why the fundamental structure of Our" western" society is stuffed. All this lying and BS.

A story is a story... it's never meant to be called "real" or "true"... IT's A Story..

And for the other people who can only see this as meaning, destroying the XMAS joy.... have a think, just because your kids no that santa's just a man in a red suit who likes giving out presents because of tradition, then why does that mean XMAS is destroyed... I don't see it....



posted on Dec, 23 2011 @ 03:31 PM
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reply to post by nawki
 


Well said!



posted on Dec, 23 2011 @ 03:31 PM
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Originally posted by nawki
And for those arguing the point about "Lies" and "Half Truths".. .. . .

SANTA is a Conspiracy, a deception, a child's first taste of us untrustworthy adults lying to them. To compare that to giving someone a compliment when you don't really like there shoes... That's just being facetious. . .

Your only taking that line because you have nothing...

YOU KNOW IT's a LIE... and there can be no good come of it..


Never denied that Santa is a lie. My point, had you fully read my posts, is that not all half-truths are bad. Sometimes they are good, sometimes they are necessary, and sometimes they cause no harm. In the case of Santa, the half-truth causes no harm and can lead to children learning some valuable lessons if the parents take the opportunity.



posted on Dec, 23 2011 @ 03:33 PM
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As a kid I was not allowed to believe in Santa. My parents were christian and they didn't like the fact that he's "magical". I didn't really care because I thought even as a kid that it was too weird for a grown man to have access to go inside EVERYONES house late at night!



posted on Dec, 23 2011 @ 03:33 PM
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reply to post by Jenna
 


I'll have a go.

Telling the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth is required by a court of law, not children. You can leave out some of the truth until they are older and better able to understand. You don't need to freak them out.

No one has said children can cope with everything we deal with or understand it. That said they often cope better than expected when things they witness are discussed not avoided.

We are not talking about telling kids everything, only not purposefully telling lies which will ultimately have a less beneficial effect than telling the truth, like about santa.

If there is no good reason to lie about Santa, what's the point, why do it?

The thread is not about how much truth a child can handle or is fair to share.

Namaste

ed Applause for nawki ! If you go to my profile and read the post I did on the 2 witnesses thread you will see that I totally agree.

edit on 23-12-2011 by Threegirls because: To agree with an above post

edit on 23-12-2011 by Threegirls because: to clarify



posted on Dec, 23 2011 @ 03:40 PM
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Originally posted by Jenna
You're completely missing that a half-truth contains part of the truth.


No, I understand that part. But what is the other half? A lie (false information) or just withheld information?

If a half truth contains the truth AND a lie, then it's a lie.
If a half-truth contains the truth and withheld information, it's not necessarily a lie.

The statement we disagree on is "Withholding information is the same as lying". You say that's true and I say false.
Withholding information CAN be a lie (if the complete truth is important or relevant to the situation) but it's not the same as lying (giving false information)



posted on Dec, 23 2011 @ 03:41 PM
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Coming back into this thread, I'm actually starting to believe that there won't be any fun traditions left in a few years. White wedding dresses will be a thing of the past, too. We all know that 96% of the women who are married aren't vigins, but we still appreciate the white wedding dress as tradition.

I'll always view traditions as good even if they aren't the most honest activity. I'm sad to see so many people not wanting to believe in something magical and harmless.

Santa works more for the parents than kids anyways. Without Santa, my parents never would've gotten my sister and I to go to bed on Christmas Eve. They always said, "If you aren't asleep when Santa comes, he'll just go on to the next house." What parent really wants their kids up when they're trying to get their gifts under the tree and build that bike or doll house? I don't think so.

I'm so happy that my parents instilled a magical quality to Christmas by keeping the tradition of Santa alive.

Even though it was a fib, it still doesn't make the lies we hear today any less painful. How many of us have been told for years that your money was safe in a bank and we believed it?

Folks need to lighten up. Childhood is a very short time and I think kids deserve to believe in magic and fancy for as long they can.



posted on Dec, 23 2011 @ 03:46 PM
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I think we're all missing the real issue here...the most important question of all...

Does two half-lies make a lie or a truth, or both?

Lol, tha\t debate has been goin g on for quite a few pages now...you guys should start a thread it's kinda funny.



posted on Dec, 23 2011 @ 03:48 PM
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reply to post by Threegirls
 


My point is it's pointless to play semantics and pretend that it isn't a lie of omission when you only give half of the information to someone, children included. Doesn't matter if you're talking about a dress, Santa, or how many drinks you've had today. Doesn't matter if the person you are speaking to is an adult or a child. I've repeatedly said that children aren't capable of handling some truths and that half-truths are the preferable alternative. I agree that it isn't necessary to give them every detail if they aren't old enough to understand or process it. What I don't agree with is pretending that it doesn't count as a half-truth or pretending that a half-truth isn't a lie.




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