The Santa Myth: Should we perpetuate the lie to children?

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic

Originally posted by morefiber
But if you NEVER lie to your children then they will think everyone tells the truth, and be bad at telling when people are lying.

So how do you teach them that there are bad people in the world who could hurt them? By hurting them? Your post makes NO sense.

Does so make sense!
Sports can hurt too. Maybe we should stop sports as well. Come to think of it kids can be hurt on the playground, lets get kids out of these too.
I don't think lying to small kids about Santa Claus really hurts them.

Na na, na na, boo boo.

Originally posted by Jenna
If my child walks in the room while I'm watching a violent section of a movie before I can pause it or turn it off, I'm not going to tell him that people really can be beheaded or that they can end up with gaping holes in their heads from being shot.

I'm not suggesting you should VOLUNTEER information. Of course you tell them that what they're viewing is just a movie - just a story. But you don't have to go on and volunteer that it can and does happen in real life - to prevent lying to your child. No half-truths necessary.

When I was pregnant with my youngest, I didn't tell my oldest (who was five at the time) how babies are made
and how his brother was going to get out of my belly when he asked because he wasn't mature enough for it. I skirted the edges of truth and told him that mommy and daddy decided to have a baby and that the doctor would take his brother out when he was ready to be born. (Ended up being true since I had a c-section, but that's irrelevant. At the time I thought I was lying.

)

That's not a lie. "The Stork brings babies" is a lie. The above illustrates a situation in which a child can be told the truth (as much as they need to know) without making up a crazy story about where babies come from. The doctor DOES deliver the baby. That's true...

A simplified 'sometimes parents just can't get along and are better not living together anymore' will suffice.

And it's not a lie! That's what I mean about telling kids the truth in a way that makes sense for them.

I still haven't seen a situation in which a parent HAS to lie.

reply to post by eletheia

Originally posted by eletheia
However in your reply to Hawkwind it appears that it is not the telling of the lie you object to as much as the manner of how the lie is dressed up.

I don't know what post you're talking about. I haven't replied to Hawkwind as far as I know... Until now:

reply to post by Hawkwind.


I don't resent my parents for the mistakes they made. They did the best they could and what they thought was right. That doesn't mean I would want to make the same mistakes with my own children.

I don’t see the problem, it is a lie that once the kid is older will understand and laugh about. Its like telling kids a story, to make it more immersive you might make it sound as though it happened and was real to make the story more interesting. As a child it is important to have those fantasies to captivate their imagination. The whole consumerism of Christmas is much worse though and a bigger problem than Santa if you ask me.

Santa is just an extension of God and his "be good and get rewarded or be bad and get punished" dogma.

Santa is simply the means we use make the miracle of "reward or punish" (at Christmas) happen in
real time, as an example for our children. It is brainwashing at best. But we see it as harmless
because it prepares our children for a life of prayer. It prepares them to believe in an all-seeing God
who records everything, and who finally ultimately rewards and punishes based on our performance.

Our children learn that prayer (asking for gifts) is fruitful. It is hard to teach your child
to find peace with what he or she has going for them if they are taught that it is okay to
pray for relief from freckles or a missing hand or respite from illness.

The sad part of it all is that many children around the world go hungry, or die from hunger and disease,
with little hope that their lives will ever improve to the point where they will have access to food, or clean
water, or shelter. While little Johnny is encouraged to beg the magic man at the top of the world
for his hearts desire.

I never wanted my children to believe in Santa, or the Tooth-Fairy, etc. But I wasn't courageous
enough to go against my wife and in-laws who see it as harmless. Of course, they are all devoutly
religious...and I believe in only what I can sense, or perceive.

Santa and God are both simply a means we employ to control ourselves and our behavior. A
way to give ourselves hope that life never ends. A way to excuse ourselves from our greed for more
while others suffer in poverty...and Christmas especially...as a means to offer a token of aid
or goodwill for the briefest moment so that we can forgive ourselves for acting like assholes
for the rest of the year......Bah Humbug

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
I still haven't seen a situation in which a parent HAS to lie.

Telling a half-truth is still a lie, it's just a lie in fancy clothes. I've deleted what I've typed at least five times because I really don't want to come across as making assumptions. But it's really kinda coming across as though you're only against some lies but not others when initially you were taking a no lies ever stance. That's fine, if that's what it is, but there is a pretty big gap between never lying period and allowing half-truths.

reply to post by Benevolent Heretic






SORRY my error i meant to post 'Hawkinds' reply to you

Originally posted by starchild10

Originally posted by calnorak
If you lie to your kids for this, your kids will not have complete trust in you in later years. I think it is wrong to lie to your kid about it.

What absolute tosh. It's done generations of kids no harm at all. Nor did it turn us into rampant consumers. Parents these days do that very nicely all by themselves.
What it did was spin a little magic around Christmas. And at the age of 61, some of it is still there for me.
What a dull, grey, politically correct world some of the posters here would have us live in.
There are more important things in this world to worry about.

I don't mean to come across as rude or insulting here...but this is the dumbest thing I've read on here...and I've read quite a lot of dumb s?@t on here...

If the belief in santa didn't do generations of kids harm then why are parents turning their own kids into consumers? Presumably, because the parents themselves are consumers? Who turned the parents into consumers? Were humans always hardcore consumers? Was it always like this? Stupid.

I think the point is that santa is used by corporations for nothing more than to make massive amounts of money...so it's ok to lie as long as it makes a profit, is that it?

Because I believe that when kids do finally learn that santa isn't real they probably will think...ok, so it's fine to lie to make a profit, no? We obviously do think this, hence as to why we make such ridiculous statements. Guns ain't evil...people with guns are...we've taken the so-called "magic" of santa and made it evil because it's not about magic and we know it...it's about profit. It puts people under pressure and into debt...and kids learn this as they get older, but they're brainwashed into thinking it's normal or okay...hence as to why kids are being turned into consumers by their parents.

Commercials for expensive toys littered with "festive" images and symbolism, that's the magic...we can use this whole idea/concept of the magic of christmas as a tool that, essentially, turns kids into walking, talking advertisments...oh if I don't have one of these my friends won't think I'm cool....you're not cool because you don't have one of these and I do, etc.

Stories and myths are fine, until some greedy f?@ks decide to ruthlessly use it in order to fill their coffers with money people don't actually have. It's a sad state of affairs...there's no magic in it, there never was.

All the time on this very site we read ideas and theories about how the global elite use smoke and mirrors, twist and lie to us in order to gain more power and money, etc...isn't this part of it? Perhaps ditching the lie that is santa is step one in waking up.

reply to post by eletheia


BH did reply to Hawkwind here. Is this is the post you were referring to?

Does anyone else see the irony in arguing about the Santa Claus myth on ATS.

We need to be able to believe in the little lies when we're younger so we can learn to believe the big ones when we're older. The ones like truth, and justice.

reply to post by Jenna






No it's not that one I've cleared it up i meant to say Hawkwinds reply to BH - have appoligised!




And yes Morefiber it is ironic

Originally posted by Jenna
Telling a half-truth is still a lie, it's just a lie in fancy clothes.

Well, we need to get right with our definitions, then. To me, as long as what I say is the truth (speaking of talking with young children, now) I'm not lying. A lie is saying something that isn't true. Dressing up the truth in fancy clothes isn't a lie, unless you say something that is NOT true...

But it's really kinda coming across as though you're only against some lies but not others

What lie have I advocated?

Define "Half-truth", please. If you mean omitting some things that children may not be able to handle, I don't consider that a lie. For a lie to exist, something UNTRUTHFUL (like the Santa Myth, the Stork story) must be said. Keeping the fact that beheadings happen from a child is not a lie...

reply to post by eletheia


Thank you Eletheia.

Have a happy holiday season, and I hope the tiny baby Jesus brings you all you asked for this year.
I am so outa here.

This is a fabulous post!

I am a parent of two young kids..... I am also pagan and celebrate Yule/Winter Solstice, so when I finally had kids, I had no intention of doing the "Santa Thing". But, it happened.....Santa was everywhere!! I fell into the trap.

So now we celebrate Yule and Christmas just because of Santa. I have raised my children to believe that Santa is magick and that its the spirit of magick that he represents.

This year my daughter 9, is asking more questions than usual. I feel that this will be the last year for her But my son, now 6 well, do I burst his bubble early?? And just tell them both next year? I hate what Santa has become. It is a big pain in the arse!

My advice for new parents is to not fall for it, change the future! Raise your children to your beliefs only and skip Santa altogether. He is a great myth that we need to put back into the myth closet !!

reply to post by OwenGP185


Ah yes, and the problem is, the 'Santa' lie is the reason that it is so out of control.

No matter how much you are struggling financially, you can not say to your child "we don't have any money for the presents you want this year, I'm sorry and love you very much" because you don't get them 'he' does and the only thing that determines if you get what you want is if you are naughty or nice.

Santa is a cute story but it takes nothing from the holiday to say it is just a story and we buy the presents. It will not even upset them but may help to rein in the farce of overspending. They will also believe you when you say lying is wrong, it's all good.

Namaste

Now you see if santa was dressed form head to toe in adverts (and yes I am aware of the link to the coca cola advert and the red and white outfit), or totting a machine gun I could see a point in the argument. Yeah lets take away a little bit of childhood becaue people without kids think its unhealthy... Now I'm not religious but I object to both it and the moves to 'de christian-ize' christmas. These samepeople want their cake and eat it , they want to remove santa and any link to religion but many of the same people also wont turn down an xmas present if given.

This is hypocracy of the highest order by a load of kill joys who haven't had kids and think we should all live some hum drum ilfe wiht no fantasy as kids and grow up to be good little citzens living our borring lives. Get a grip. Seriously it sounds like some people need to get one badly! Now I'm not going to get into a slagging match over this but being nice to one another 1 day a bloody year and having an excuse to give people a present to show you appreciate them is no bad thing. remember for kids of some poor familys its the only chance they have to get ANYTHING let alone ipads and other useless junk many of you cling to like modern day teddy bears.

No one said you have to go out and bankrupt yourself to buy stuff for kids...no one forces you to run out and buythe latest shiny thing...you do that all by yourself with no influence of christmas at all. So leave kids alone wiht a little bit of childhood left in a harsh and every joyless world. Look into the eyes of a 2 year old and justify to them why you say they can't and shouldn't have santa or an xmas present... because lets not forget without santa or any excuse for xmas there is no reason to give presents....humans need that excuse and children especially.

Lets not make kids grow up too fast. So go and find a small child and you tell them why and lets see their reaction. You dont want to celebrate xmas..fine dont...but do not force your beliefs onto others.

Wayne...

Santa Claus is a perversion of Saint Nicholas, who comes on December 5th.

Saint Nick left small treats in the stockings of good children and his sidekick Black Peter left chunks of coal and sticks for the bad children.

But it wasn't timed right for consumerism, so they moved it to Dec 25th, a holiday the christians stole from the Pagans. Ties in much better with new years celebrations, 6 day gap vs 25 day gap, creates a short season.

I feel bad for the poor kids who won't get visited by Santa, even if they were good they'll think they were bad, or worse yet, unimportant.

Originally posted by luciddream
I told my niece(6) and nephew(4) that santa didn't exist, and that your parents buy the gifts for you. They took it ok, i think my nephew even said "thats what i thought, because our chimney is closed, he is too fat", i started teaching my niece about bacteria and viruses, how magnets work, multiplications...

lets give them knowledge instead of fairy tales, there are books for that. Keep reality and fairy tales in their own separate place. Last thing they wanna do is doubt themselves about why they didn't receive the gift they wanted.

Oh yeah don't forget about less fortunate kids that share the same classrooms.

Regarding the 'less fortunate kids' in the classroom, I believed that you may have missed the point of the festive cheer.

It's never about the size or price of the gift. It is the thought that counts.

The Messiah was only a carpenter, a lowly trade amongst many in that era. Yet, many believed in him, based upon his faith, conviction, courage, logic and reason, and with his murder, guilty of no crime except for speaking the truth, he inspired many, generations even up till now.

He was not a rich mortal man, yet, by his faith alone which could have given every single of his thousands believers that followed him then riches beyond their wildest dream, he kept them fed and thirsted for nothing. The greater riches were his teachings, compassion and love shared by our Creator for mankind, to never to crave for the temporal, for we only have limited time on Earth, but an eternity in a better place elsewhere far beyond all imagination possible within our grasp if we only would honour the Being whom created us and gave us the gift of live, love, intelligence and free will.


Point is, do not be fooled into consumerism rampant in our greedy world, espacially so for this festive and remembrance period. Give only within your means, as long as it is given sincerly from your heart. It matters not if you are rich or poor.

Just a simple note 'I love you' in a paper box wrapped with your hands is enough for your child, if you have not the means for anything better. A child below 7 may be disappointed but the next day will promptly forget about it, for their minds are not develope yet to comprehend issues.

But for a child above 7 years old, he is not blind to the circumstances you as a parent is in as compared to other rich folks. He too may be disappointed initially, but that piece of paper will be treasured and cherished above all other gifts in his lifetime when the family become prosperous, even if he gets a new Lamborghanni each year. Hard times, just as good times, never last. It will be fondly remembered.

Such is the pure and unconditional love of a child towards his parents, if his parents truly loves and cares for him. And that's what the spirit of this festive is all about - Love. The greatest reward any human can ever hope for - to love and be loved in return, purely.

What I do find odd is that it's not very common for kids to buy each other or their parents gifts.

Ok, so most kids don't earn money, some have jobs, etc, sure. For most kids the only source of "income" for want of a better word is pocket money given to them by parents/family etc. The truth is real gifts and acts of kindness (the true spirit of christmas) don't need to cost a small fortune. Why have we ended up in a world where it does need to cost an arm and a leg?

In my experience the majority of kids these days have this attitude where it's like..."But...but this is my money,! Why should I spend it on someone else?" not all kids, but most and let's not lie to ourselves about that fact.

If the true value of christmas being passed on to kids is about how it's a magical time and about giving, kindness and generosity, why are kids becoming more and more selfish? They expect so much but don't give much, I don't have kids of my own, I've a niece and nephew, I don't want them to scrimp and scrape in order to buy me something expensive...I know it's kinda corny but it IS actually the thought that counts. It is magic when a child takes the time to make someone even a card because the child wanted to. Kids mostly do these things in school because their teachers tell them to..."Ok, kids... let's make a nice christmas card for our parents!". When a child makes someone a gift of their own accord it's truly innocent and meaningful - sadly, kids these days ain't programmed to think this way...

It's not the kids faults, it's ours - modern society who have taught kids that christmas is actually about greed and excess, have you seen the letters kids write to santa?

"Dear Santa - I want an i-Pad...and, and I want an i-Phone...and, and a laptop computer...and, and like...lot's of money..."

The true magic of christmas is where one child buys another child something wtih little monatery value (or no value...like something they made themselves perhaps) without being told to do so or having it politely suggested by an adult. In my experience this isn't so common these days, I wonder why?

It's okay to perpetuate a lie that promotes selfishness and greed...better yet it's ok to base the whole lie around something that is acutally quite meaningful to a lot of people...the birth of christ and the lesser-known actions of Saint Nicholas, yeah... it's ok. We've been getting it so wrong for years people don't even see the obvious.