Government Motors Volt Costs Taxpayers $250,000 per Vehicle

reply to post by peck420

There's no doubt that the Toyota Prius has been a hit.

A year ago, worldwide sales of the hybrid hatchback passed two million and, with annual sales of over 400,000 units, the Prius practically defines the idea of a green car for many people.

Toyota is expanding the Prius from a model into a family with the larger Prius V, a plug-in model coming next spring and a smaller model on the way. Toyota had projected that 2011 would be another banner year, with record sales of the Prius leading the way.

www.green.autoblog.com...

Toyota Prius sales pass Ford Explorer

Americans bought more Toyota Prius hybrid gas-electric hatchbacks last year than Ford Explorer sport-utility vehicles, the top-selling SUV for more than a decade.

articles.moneycentral.msn.com...


Nope...no market for Hybrids..

reply to post by Indigo5


There is a small market, and I mean small.
But, comparing the Prius vs. Volt. The Prius seems to be the top.
Less dependence on the Battery, further drivable distance on the electric side and so on.
www.insideline.com...

Plus, the whole issue that the Prius is not reported as catching fire and offered to be purchased back by the manufacture.

And the price is a huge difference as well.

Originally posted by macman

Originally posted by Indigo5




Facts...then opinion...actually a good basis for an OP.

So, what I states is truth.
Ok.

What you stated was one part fact...one part opinion...just as I stated.

Making the leap to include both opinion and facts under the heading of factual "truth" is not accurate or honest thinking.

Originally posted by macman

Originally posted by Indigo5


Should I now explain that facts don't matter to right-wingers like yourself? That opinion suported by lies is always valid to right wingers? Many different flavors of birtherism?

Is that the way partisan sniping works? Did I get that right?

Cuz that first park of your post was ignorant trash and political trolling and has no place in a factual discussion.

Ok, please show me where, me being not a Liberal, but a Conservative Libertarian, that I play favorites like this.
Or, decry that one company (be it a Bank or what have you) should not get money from the Govt, yet another should.
My research shows that what has been presented by you and Immaculated falls under the Liberal mentality.
If this is wrong, please let me know.
I am not a birther.
Not a Republican.
I, if labeled a Conservative, will wear it as my badge.
I, do not deflect the issue of this.

Whether you deem me to be a "Liberal" in your view holds no water with me and the reverse should hold true for you. Being a Libertarian does not absolve you from being partisan...a racist is stil a racist even when he derides both Blacks and Chinese folks.

Would you be more comfortable with me inserting "Libertarian" into some partisan trash statement? Or are you capable of getting the point absent the semantics?

reply to post by Indigo5


Please show me where this is not fact.

Originally posted by macman


The issue still remains.
GM used an interest free loan from the Govt.
GM should have failed, allowing for actual restructuring, instead of limping along with the aid of the Fed Govt.
Those dollars, along with tax subsidizes provided GM the financial means to create a vehicle that is not wanted by the market. Hence the low and sluggish sales figures for said vehicle.

But, since GM is the Auto Darling of 0bama and the like, they were "Saved", to allow it to continue to fail slowly, just to keep some Union and Union members in work until the next injection of Govt Money goes to it.

Originally posted by Indigo5

Whether you deem me to be a "Liberal" in your view holds no water with me and the reverse should hold true for you. Being a Libertarian does not absolve you from being partisan...a racist is stil a racist even when he derides both Blacks and Chinese folks.

Would you be more comfortable with me inserting "Libertarian" into some partisan trash statement? Or are you capable of getting the point absent the semantics?

Oh come on.
Ok then, so what is your badge then?
Sorry, but if it walks like and talks like, it must be. Unless, otherwise defined.
You provided no defining terms.

Other then the sideswipe at the end, you really stated nothing.

reply to post by Indigo5


So, what is the price of tea in China?

Comparing Prius sales to a vehicle that has had dwindling sales numbers since 2002 is not exactly hard to do.

Especially when that vehicle has the unfortunate nickname of 'Exploder'.

You will also note that the Explorer is not even on my list of top tens. And you can also note that Ford is currently trying one last redesign before that whole design get's shelved.

Now, if you want to compare it to the Ford 'Escape' (which is on the list), but got confused, no problem.

The Escape sold almost as many units in the US as the Prius did GLOBALLY in 2011. Of those sales, 3.9% were hybrid models.
Prius GLOBAL sales: 258,900
Escape US sales: 228,729 (9,009 hybrids)

What's next? How Prius sales have absolutely dominated Yugo sales?

Hybrids moment of glory has passed before it even began. The electrics are just going to get better and shove the hybrid completely out of the market.

The one area that both electrics and hybrids will be shut out from for the near future is commercial and industrial. We don't have anything even close, to the power requirements those segments require, in battery technology any where close to development.

Originally posted by macman
reply to post by Indigo5

 

There is a small market, and I mean small.
But, comparing the Prius vs. Volt. The Prius seems to be the top.
Less dependence on the Battery, further drivable distance on the electric side and so on.
www.insideline.com...

Plus, the whole issue that the Prius is not reported as catching fire and offered to be purchased back by the manufacture.

And the price is a huge difference as well.

edit on 4-1-2012 by macman because: Additon

And that is because the Prius has been around for years, the technology perfected, the costs reduced with scale and it's start-up costs were heavily subsidized by the Japanese government.

Not to mention...
Toyota Announces Voluntary Safety Recall of Certain Prius Vehicles
pressroom.toyota.com...

Round and round we go...

We can cede the auto industry to the rest of the world or we can invest in our auto industry and kick some butt in the years to come.

We can take the "Libertarian" view of free markets with no government assistance, but in a global market place that is not libertarian...anything but...we will suffer the economic consequences and they are severe.

I am not for Big Government, I am for a limited government, but the Auto Industry is someplace where the government should be giving a boost to, that or give up.

reply to post by peck420


Please link when you toss out stats. Not that I don't trust you

A gallon of fuel delivered to the battle zone in the Middle East costs the taxpayers $400.

And military vehicles of all sorts use a lot of fuel.

IMHO even if the $250k number was correct (looks inflated to me), weaning America off the ME oil is worth a try.

Originally posted by Indigo5


And that is because the Prius has been around for years, the technology perfected, the costs reduced with scale and it's start-up costs were heavily subsidized by the Japanese government.

So, excuses and blame basically.
Well, boo-hoo for GM.
Sounds like they should go back to R&D until they have a viable, marketable product that can compete.

Originally posted by Indigo5
Not to mention...
Toyota Announces Voluntary Safety Recall of Certain Prius Vehicles
pressroom.toyota.com...

Yes, yes they did.
I believe the recall was for several models, having to do with the stuck gas pedal.
They corrected the issue.
What is the point? I am not holding the Prius up on high.

Originally posted by Indigo5
Round and round we go...

We can cede the auto industry to the rest of the world or we can invest in our auto industry and kick some butt in the years to come.

We can take the "Libertarian" view of free markets with no government assistance, but in a global market place that is not libertarian...anything but...we will suffer the economic consequences and they are severe.

I am not for Big Government, I am for a limited government, but the Auto Industry is someplace where the government should be giving a boost to, that or give up.

So, you are for Small Govt, Yet in the same response you are for Govt getting involved when you see fit.
Ok, I guess it is always different.

Originally posted by macman

Originally posted by Indigo5


And that is because the Prius has been around for years, the technology perfected, the costs reduced with scale and it's start-up costs were heavily subsidized by the Japanese government.

So, excuses and blame basically.
Well, boo-hoo for GM.

All of you seem to forget that the Prius was subsidized by the American govt and tax money as well, by a large tax incentive (which since expired but was enormously helpful in launching the product.

Originally posted by buddhasystem

Originally posted by macman

Originally posted by Indigo5


And that is because the Prius has been around for years, the technology perfected, the costs reduced with scale and it's start-up costs were heavily subsidized by the Japanese government.

So, excuses and blame basically.
Well, boo-hoo for GM.

All of you seem to forget that the Prius was subsidized by the American govt and tax money as well, by a large tax incentive (which since expired but was enormously helpful in launching the product.

And again, I do not agree with that, nor hold it on High.
Neither Company should get that.

Originally posted by macman
And again, I do not agree with that, nor hold it on High.
Neither Company should get that.

Our country has an absurd level of dependence on fossil fuel imported from weird places. If you know of better ways to change that, I'm all ears.

Originally posted by macman

Originally posted by Indigo5

Whether you deem me to be a "Liberal" in your view holds no water with me and the reverse should hold true for you. Being a Libertarian does not absolve you from being partisan...a racist is stil a racist even when he derides both Blacks and Chinese folks.

Would you be more comfortable with me inserting "Libertarian" into some partisan trash statement? Or are you capable of getting the point absent the semantics?

Oh come on.
Ok then, so what is your badge then?
Sorry, but if it walks like and talks like, it must be. Unless, otherwise defined.
You provided no defining terms.

Other then the sideswipe at the end, you really stated nothing.

Is it not sufficient to know my opinion on this issue? Or is my opinion on every issue relative to this one?

I favor a government that small and efficient and with a balanced budget.

My foriegn policy leans libertarian. Expensive, pointless wars beyond securing oil.

I love capitalism and free markets,

I favor government funding of alternative energy research, it might not be free markets, but it is a pittance to what we spend to secure our oil and the rest of the world's governments are doing it aggressively and if we don't stake a claim we will be their customers in the next decade.

I find our current President to be a C-, His Predecessor a D and the slate of Republican Nominees the worst that I have seen in my lifetime. I give your man Paul points, but the establishment is never going to let that happen.

I like old school conservatives and Moderate Democrats and generally anyone who realizes the partisan civil culture war that the US public has been scammed into makes us cheer for things that are against our own best interests.

Originally posted by buddhasystem

Originally posted by macman
And again, I do not agree with that, nor hold it on High.
Neither Company should get that.

Our country has an absurd level of dependence on fossil fuel imported from weird places. If you know of better ways to change that, I'm all ears.

That is for another topic.
Govt money to companies is more on topic.

reply to post by Indigo5


Well rounded insight always leads to better discussion and discourse.
Thanks for defining your background.

reply to post by TheImmaculateD1

It does not pay it back within the timeframe agreed upon The US Federal Government will OWN IT LOCK, STOCK AND BARREL!

You keep saying similar BS in different ways.

It is wrong, false, imaginary,nonsense.

None of the US bailouts to GM include any reversion of ownership. Do you really beleive that the UAW and shareholders will be robbed (again) bt the Obama administration? How do you justify taking "ownership" away from taxpayers and giving it to the Gov't? That is either socialism (100% go'vt ownership) or fascism(gov't "partnership" with favored indstry); it is not capitalism.

How do you take shareholders' property away if they do not agree? This is nonsense.

This set of beliefs or contentions or fantasies are completely 100% delusional.
There are no such provisions anywhere in the GM prospectus, 10-Qs or 10-Ks. I've seen them!

What are you smoking or dreaming that leads you to propagte such nonsense?
(Other than an inveterate instinct to troll?)
jw

Originally posted by macman

Originally posted by buddhasystem

Originally posted by macman
And again, I do not agree with that, nor hold it on High.
Neither Company should get that.

Our country has an absurd level of dependence on fossil fuel imported from weird places. If you know of better ways to change that, I'm all ears.

That is for another topic.
Govt money to companies is more on topic.

I don't see any salient distinction between the govt funding research into novel types of energy production and storage, and supporting a business that takes it upon itself to move the concept into production. Once there is a critical mass in the process, govt will cut all sort of funding.

One example of past week are expired subsidies for corn producers (which in fact were paid to fuel manufacturers, making ethanol).

reply to post by Indigo5


The 2011 sales numbers I pinched from Wiki...

The actual sales figures will not be released for a bit yet (year end was just a couple of days ago).

They usually surface around March.

Prius

Escape

Originally posted by macman
reply to post by Indigo5

 

Please show me where this is not fact.

Originally posted by macman


The issue still remains.
GM used an interest free loan from the Govt.
GM should have failed, allowing for actual restructuring, instead of limping along with the aid of the Fed Govt.
Those dollars, along with tax subsidizes provided GM the financial means to create a vehicle that is not wanted by the market. Hence the low and sluggish sales figures for said vehicle.

But, since GM is the Auto Darling of 0bama and the like, they were "Saved", to allow it to continue to fail slowly, just to keep some Union and Union members in work until the next injection of Govt Money goes to it.

I underlined the facts...the rest is opinion, some of it founded but debatable, some of it reaching...but all of it with the exception of what I underlined...opinion.