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Government Motors Volt Costs Taxpayers $250,000 per Vehicle

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posted on Jan, 4 2012 @ 02:49 PM
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Originally posted by Indigo5
Motortrend Car of the Year: CHevy Volt
www.motortrend.com...

This thread isn't about the quality of the Volt...not even close...and the above, rather informed review, would at the least seem to subjagate your view of the Volt to pure opinion as opposed to issue.


More of your fantasy "projections?"

From the January, 2011 issue of Motor Trend

www.motortrend.com...

You "source" conducted their review when gas was $2.80/gal., GM and Obama were predicting sales of 40,000 vehicles before the 2013 model year, and the car had yet to hit dealership backlots.

Your phony projections and amortizations have "debunked" nothing so much as the left's credibility.

I have yet to see GM or Obama point out how Mackinac's "simple math" is wrong.
They cannot, because the majority of the money has been allocated or spent.

Even at the "low" side of the equation (which I included in the OP) the current-dollar subsidies exceed $56,00 per vehicle, which sells to buyers averaging $170,000/year in income.

Why do the "1%" need subsidies for the coal-fired electricity to power this thing, or the $7,500 tax credit for buying it?

This is getting so sad and pathetic. Now you have wasted your credibility defending a bailout for the "1%" and the UAW and a company that drove its own self to the brink through mismanagement and union give-aways.


Again on the Government Subsidies issue...Other industries that they fund, particularly the Oil Industry who funded the OP article, but which seem to recieve no attention here or by the "Macinac Policy Center" very pointedly exposes the storyline as propagandist agenda aimed at defunding alternate energy, rather than a sincere issue with Government Subsidies.


BS.
"Progressives" shriek about "oil subsidies" but fail to explain that the tax benefits they enjoy are the same ones enjoyed by any other business or industry that gets to deduct the "cost of goods sold," or amortize capital investments over time.

More liberal whiny BS doesn't really help your game.

Forget the messenger, already. You cannot break the truth of the message; even GM acknowledges their dependence upon outrageous subsidies just to exist. for the benefit of the Obama administration and the steelworkers and the UAW.

All the while, sending record amounts of production to Mexico, China, Brazil, Russia, Uzbekhistan and elsewhere.

I'll give you this: When you are "all-in" for Obama, you are all-in; crediblity and common sense be damned.

jw

In short, Gov Subsidies are good enough for the Oil folks that funded this article...just not when that money is directed at alternate energy.
edit on 4-1-2012 by jdub297 because: (no reason given)

edit on 4-1-2012 by jdub297 because: sp




posted on Jan, 4 2012 @ 03:02 PM
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reply to post by Indigo5
 


Nope...no market for Hybrids..


All without my tax dollars paying the freight and overhead and giving $$$ to the top 1% of wage earners!
Your "example" is not just inapt, but a major indictment of the state-planning model of production and crony capitalism.

jw



posted on Jan, 4 2012 @ 03:12 PM
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Originally posted by buddhasystem

Originally posted by macman
And again, I do not agree with that, nor hold it on High.
Neither Company should get that.


Our country has an absurd level of dependence on fossil fuel imported from weird places. If you know of better ways to change that, I'm all ears.

Sure:
Open exploration and production of proven US oil reserves and gas reserves.

Open access to North American sources (Canada and Mexico).

Eliminate shipments from overseas.

Avoid the perfidy of Arab enemies.

Eliminate the need for strategic defense of the Straits of Hormuz.

This can all be accomplished through domestic production, which funds alternative-energy research through royalties and taxes..

And that's just for starters.

jw
edit on 4-1-2012 by jdub297 because: sp



posted on Jan, 4 2012 @ 03:12 PM
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Originally posted by jdub297


I have yet to see GM or Obama point out how Mackinac's "simple math" is wrong.


Yes. and President Obama hasn't personally called Orly Taitz to explain his citizenship situation either.

Perhaps GM or the Obama adminstration simply assumes that most rational folks are able to discern truth from BS and are capable of basic math?

That was a heck of vitriolic rant..your last post. Feel better soon.



posted on Jan, 4 2012 @ 03:15 PM
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Edit:
Changed mind about responding to this kind of nonsense
edit on 4-1-2012 by Indigo5 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 4 2012 @ 03:32 PM
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reply to post by buddhasystem
 


One example of past week are expired subsidies for corn producers (which in fact were paid to fuel manufacturers, making ethanol).


Of course, the law requiring 36 billion gallons of ethanol be used for fuel by 2022 (16,000,000 gallon 2012 mandatory ethanol purchases) is still on the books. Why would producers need any more subsidy if they have a guaranteed market for a worthless procduct? (The EPA prohibits use of E-85 in millions of vehicles, due to harm to engines.)

jw



posted on Jan, 4 2012 @ 03:43 PM
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reply to post by Indigo5
 



Yes. and President Obama hasn't personally called Orly Taitz to explain his citizenship situation either.


Actually, he did last year with the release of the photoshopped "long form" bc.

My guess is that, like so many other things, Obama doesn't really give a damn what people think so long as he can say whatever his chosen audience of the moment wants to hear without regard for truth.

To wit:
Guantanamo
Transparency
Publication of legislation 72 hoursa prior to signing
Reliance solely uopn public campaign funding
Keeping your own provider/insurabce policy
5 million "green" jobs by 2015
His mother's (false) insurance "dispute"
The "American Apology" world tour

and the list goes on ... .

jw



posted on Jan, 4 2012 @ 03:57 PM
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Originally posted by Indigo5

Originally posted by macman
reply to post by Indigo5
 


Please show me where this is not fact.

Originally posted by macman


The issue still remains.
GM used an interest free loan from the Govt.
GM should have failed, allowing for actual restructuring, instead of limping along with the aid of the Fed Govt.
Those dollars, along with tax subsidizes provided GM the financial means to create a vehicle that is not wanted by the market. Hence the low and sluggish sales figures for said vehicle.

But, since GM is the Auto Darling of 0bama and the like, they were "Saved", to allow it to continue to fail slowly, just to keep some Union and Union members in work until the next injection of Govt Money goes to it.



I underlined the facts...the rest is opinion, some of it founded but debatable, some of it reaching...but all of it with the exception of what I underlined...opinion.


GM should have failed is fact.
There are many Companies that could use or could have used the interest free loan that GM was given.
That, is playing favorites by the Govt, plain and simple.
SO, in stating that they should have failed, is fact.
The Govt has no business making winners or losers.
A company needs to fail or succeed without Interest Free Loans from the Govt.

The low sales figures do indeed show, by fact, that the vehicle is not wanted in the market.
Whether it be due to the GM name behind it, the price or what have you. That is still fact as well.

And, GM being the Darling, or Favorite, is fact.

Seems like you need some more underlining.



posted on Jan, 4 2012 @ 04:31 PM
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Originally posted by macman

GM should have failed is fact.


GM should have failed....Opinion

GM would have failed...still opinion, but a well supported and generally accepted one.

GM accepted interest free loans from the government at a time when it appeared they would fail otherwise....Fact

You seem angry at logic? Whether I agree with you or not, you are expressing opinions not facts.
edit on 4-1-2012 by Indigo5 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 4 2012 @ 04:35 PM
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Originally posted by Indigo5
GM should have failed....Opinion


Would you settle for Genral Motors should have entered Chapter 11 Bankruptcy as established by 200+ years of lawful precedent?



posted on Jan, 4 2012 @ 05:04 PM
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reply to post by macman
 


Don't dare bring Edmund's here to push your case as they are behind The Volt along with Motor Trend, Jalopnik, Car & Driver, Automobile magazines!



posted on Jan, 4 2012 @ 05:07 PM
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Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus

Originally posted by Indigo5
GM should have failed....Opinion


Would you settle for Genral Motors should have entered Chapter 11 Bankruptcy as established by 200+ years of lawful precedent?


Geez...boys...do we not know the difference between opinion and facts? Is that what the "news" does to folks now? Scary to think there is a whole generation out there that can't tell the difference between facts and opinion anymore.

Yes..A strong case can be made that the US Gov should have let GM go bankrupt and a strong case was made contending the opposite at the time.

Both were opinions...

Let's just stop tossing the "Fact" word around unless we are actually citing one, it gets beat up on too much in the media, we don't need to abuse it here as well.
edit on 4-1-2012 by Indigo5 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 4 2012 @ 05:25 PM
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reply to post by AugustusMasonicus
 


You and the others here want 20 Million to be out of work, you want the end of American industry, an end of our ability to compete on any damn front because everytime this nation attempts to get behind any major item that will move this nation forwards is always met with attacks, criticism, personal attacks and slamming of insults and what not but if it was some foreign company who wanted to launch a gas-electric hybrid they'd be praised but God flipping forbid an American company tries to do the same. Remember that thread about the "Rise of Anti Americanism on ATS" about a month or two back, this is exactly what I was referring to.

Not one person slammed the Govt for giving loans to Wall Street after they threatened to attack us, sink our economy but have the audacity to slam any damn attempt at moving this nation forward. To all of those that follow suit, might as well file for a Renunciation of Citizenship via The US State Department because those have obviously and are so blatantly working and banking on this nations demise. This is why I support the NDAA (this and for another reason). To get each and every Anti American rat out of this nation and sent to a nation where if you complain your hands get whacked off.

BTW, until you schedule a test drive you have ABSOLUTELY NO RIGHT TO COMPLAIN about something that you yourself refuses to drive or even test out. What is so damn hard to take an hour out of your schedule to test one. Judge the product after you've driven it and not slamming it beforehand because some talking head told you it was no good and all evil.

This is beyond free speech and is now a direct attack on The USA!

Give me a figure of how many have to be out of work before you actually care? 50 Million, 75 Million, 100 Million? How bad do things have to get before you put politics aside and care about the nation?
edit on 4-1-2012 by TheImmaculateD1 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 4 2012 @ 05:36 PM
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Originally posted by Indigo5
Geez...boys...do we not know the difference between opinion and facts? Is that what the "news" does to folks now? Scary to think there is a whole generation out there that can't tell the difference between facts and opinion anymore.


I was quite mindful not to use the word 'fact' in my reply. I do however feel the United States federal government ignored 200+ years of legal precedent and wrongfully misused taxpayer money on an ill advised attempt to stave of, what I feel, is an inevitable bankruptcy due to the government not addressing any of the fundemental issues that caused General Motors to reach this sorry financial state. I further feel that lawful bankruptcy would have rectified the majority of the problems and a much healthier company would have emerged.


Yes..A strong case can be made that the US Gov should have let GM go bankrupt and a strong case was made contending the opposite at the time.


There is always a counterpoint. But the question remains, was it legal and prudent?



posted on Jan, 4 2012 @ 05:38 PM
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reply to post by jdub297
 


First those making $170,000 a year are not the 1%!
Second, Motor Trend praised this up and down and to cite them to help out your case is meaningless and useless.
Third, Someone who makes less then $75,000 a year can afford one.

That's where all this hatred of GM stems from? Because they are still linked with The UAW!

Big Oil is not connected to Source Media Interlink Publications who are the publisher's of Motor Trend as thier only connection to Big Oil is that Texaco is the Official Fuel Used by Motor Trend, beyond that the association ends. The Tire Track dominates the advertising areas!

You too get off your high horse as you lost your right to complain when 43 ran up the card and his policies alone led to the policies that collapsed the economy which directly, solely and squarely led to the collapse of GM!

Another thing that didn't help them was in 07 when the Dept of Defense stopped using Humvee's!
edit on 4-1-2012 by TheImmaculateD1 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 4 2012 @ 05:41 PM
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reply to post by AugustusMasonicus
 


The problem with that is on this counterpoints are direct and targeted attacks on this nation and it's economic health. Counterpoints have all been nullified and shot down and have no bearing or relevance here!

In 10 years time when there is a new GM product on every block in the nation like there once was you will no doubt eat your words here and be forced to apologize and when that day comes (mark my words, IT WILL!) you will be told that I care not for what you or anyone else who is attacking GM and America think or want as it's no longer about YOU and never was about YOU but was always about the protection and preservation of The US!

It obviously was above board and legal because something you never knew is that during the entire process that SCOTUS and The US Dept Of Justice were heavily involved with this entire ordeal from the getgo to ensure that every move made was legal. They were kept in the loop on everything as it was happening and no one moved forth on anything before both had a chance to step in at anytime to express any concern they had to keep the entire loan process and application legal so no laws could be broken and so that The DOJ could using it's reach, muscle and authourity could oversight the entire ordeal. Hence why the taxpayer's monitorial and financial interest was constantly protected.

If either SCOTUS or The US DOJ would've had any inkling that the entire process was illegal or treading upon illegal territory both were fully authourized by The Office Of POTUS and The White House to intervene at anytime. Every kind of scenario was well thought out and factored in covering like 20 different possible outcomes! This is facts and not some boneheaded reject opinion.
edit on 4-1-2012 by TheImmaculateD1 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 4 2012 @ 05:48 PM
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Originally posted by TheImmaculateD1
You and the others here want 20 Million to be out of work, you want the end of American industry...


*yawn* You are tedious and pedantic. You constantly go off-topic and have little substance to add to the discussion. Where, in any of my posts, did I post what you seem to be infering? Show everyone, where are the quotes?


Remember that thread about the "Rise of Anti Americanism on ATS" about a month or two back, this is exactly what I was referring to.


No I do not, nor do I care. I am far from anti-American. I am anti-corporate welfare, I am anti-subsidy, I am anti-bailout, none of those things can be classified as anti-American unless of course you think their recent application has somehow become the new American 'norm'.


Not one person slammed the Govt for giving loans to Wall Street after they threatened to attack us, sink our economy but have the audacity to slam any damn attempt at moving this nation forward.


I know you have a serious reading comprehension issue as evidence by my having to repeat myself ad nauseum but I will say it for you again: no bank or financial insititution should have a gotten a penny for running their businesses into the ground. Is this clear or will you make me repeat myself again?


This is why I support the NDAA (this and for another reason). To get each and every Anti American rat out of this nation and sent to a nation where if you complain your hands get whacked off.


I will keep this in mind Herr Dudding. Perhaps someone will take umbrage with your comments and ask to see if your papers are in order too.....


BTW, until you schedule a test drive you have ABSOLUTELY NO RIGHT TO COMPLAIN about something that you yourself refuses to drive or even test out. What is so damn hard to take an hour out of your schedule to test one. Judge the product after you've driven it and not slamming it beforehand because some talking head told you it was no good and all evil.


I have at least three good reasons (and I could probably think of several more).

One, I do not want an overpriced battery-operated car that would be totally impratical for my driving needs. You wrongfully assume that everyone's driving habits or requirements fits into the Volt's parameters.

Two, I think it is ugly.

Three, I do not need to get kicked in the nuts to know I would not enjoy getting kicked in the nuts it so why should I drive the Volt when I know I will not enjoy it?


This is beyond free speech and is now a direct attack on The USA!


Translation: Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!!!!

Learn what the First Ammendment actually applies to and then get back to us.



posted on Jan, 4 2012 @ 05:51 PM
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Originally posted by TheImmaculateD1
The problem with that is on this counterpoints are direct and targeted attacks on this nation and it's economic health. Counterpoints have all been nullified and shot down and have no bearing or relevance here!


Is that even English? What the hell does that mean?


In 10 years time when there is a new GM product on every block in the nation like there once was you will no doubt eat your words here and be forced to apologize and when that day comes (mark my words, IT WILL!) you will be told that I care not for what you or anyone else who is attacking GM and America think or want!


General Motors will eventually end up in bankruptcy as the severe undelying issues were never addressed. I have nothing to apologize for, the thieves at General Motors on the other hand....



posted on Jan, 4 2012 @ 05:56 PM
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reply to post by jdub297
 


I invite everybody to cross-check references quoted in the
Wikipedia article about the Volt.

It really becomes obvious that the "publication" in the OP is a hit piece from a Tea Party aligned "source".

Even on superficial level, the quoted number of 6k vehicles that have been sold relates to the first year the product was launched, with the facilities that were still being retooled and built up etc. However, when the work-up is complete, the production plans call for a ten-fold increase in production.


In 2012, global production capacity is expected to be 60,000 vehicles with an estimated 45,000 units to be delivered in the United States.


Not bad by any rate.

Again, is it fair to divide the estimated govt subsidy by the number of vehicles in the limited first production run on the facilities being upgraded, and before the planned production levels are achieved? This is pathetic, Mr.OP.


Awards and recognition
The Chevrolet Volt won the 2011 Motor Trend Car of the Year award.

The Volt has received awards from multiple organizations:

U.S. organizations

2009 Green Car Vision Award by the Green Car Journal at the Washington Auto Show for "a bold and far-reaching approach that promises to bring an exceptionally fuel efficient model to consumers at reasonable cost."[207]

2011 Car and Driver Ten Best Cars. For the first time ever Car and Driver magazine included an electrically powered car among its 10 best.[208]

2011 Motor Trend Car of the Year. The magazine commented that "In the 61-year history of the Car of the Year award, there have been few contenders as hyped – or as controversial – as the Chevrolet Volt."[209]

2011 Green Car of the Year by Green Car Journal. The magazine editors explained that "This award welcomes a new genre of mass-production electric vehicles to the consumer market, with the Volt as the first-ever electric vehicle to take top prize."[210]

2011 Automobile of the Year by Automobile Magazine. The editors commented that the Volt "...is genuinely an all-new car, in the most simplistic sense as well as in the greater notion that the Volt is unlike any vehicle we have ever driven."[211]

2011 North American Car of the Year announced at the 2011 North American International Auto Show. Forty-nine American and Canadian automobile writers chose the Volt. The nominees were judged based on "innovation, design, safety, handling, driver satisfaction and value".[212]

Listed among the 2011 Greenest Vehicles of the Year by the American Council for an Energy-Efficient Economy.[213][214]

2011 Edison Award - Gold in the Transportation Category, Personal Transportation Segment.[215][216]

2012 Best Resale Value Award in the category of electric cars by Kelley Blue Book.[148]

The Volt ranked first in Consumer Reports' list of owner-satisfaction based on its 2011 Annual Auto Survey, with 93% respondents who owned the Volt saying they definitely would purchase that same vehicle again. The magazine noted that the Volt had been on sale for just a few months at the time of the survey, and also clarified that the survey took place before the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration announced in November 2011 that it would conduct a safety investigation after two Volt battery packs caught fire following crash tests conducted by the agency.[217][218]



edit on 4-1-2012 by buddhasystem because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 4 2012 @ 05:59 PM
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reply to post by buddhasystem
 


That's why they can't stand it, because an American company who is employing Americans in America is receiving accolades like this and once production is on fully I expect 500,000 Volt or Volt tech driven hybrids in full production by 2017. Not to forget to mention is when the Gen 2 Volt launches sometime between 2017 - 2019 that the tech will be literate miles ahead of where we are on now.

Let them eat their shoes and dirt when the rejects can't slam them anymore. I'm still waiting on the 3 who are attacking it to schedule a test drive as they are afraid too, it MIGHT make them change their mind so ignorance, complacency and not knowing anything is no excuse to not schedule a test drive. Test the thing out for an hour and see if the sentiment still remains. Let them see what taxpayer money went into first hand right? They won't!

Now when you factor in every car company internationally that sells products stateside that brings up the total hybrids on American roads to nearly 10 Million units in what? 8 short years since the Gen 2 Pruis launched in 03 and the Gen 1 Honda Insight way back in 1999!

Heck, even the Lamborghini Aventador LP700-4 gets 13 city and 17 highway, impressive for a hyperexotic with a 700bhp V12!
edit on 4-1-2012 by TheImmaculateD1 because: (no reason given)



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