ATS and OWS: What the heck, ATS?

Originally posted by ottobot
The disorganization, unclear focus, volatile language, and recent shift toward violent protest does not appeal to me.

I see these "issues" a lot. Here's the thing; They're not true

There isn't "disorganization." These groups operate on consensus decision-making. In this regard they are actually more organized than, say, the "Tea Parties." Quick, top of your head, name a tea party "leader" - not a politician who they cheered for like Ron Paul or Sarah Palin, but someone who was actually out there leadin that movement. There wasn't one, was there? Okay, how often did people in the tea party protests get together to discuss "what next?" I'll admit, I was never in the thick of a tea party protest, so maybe they did do collective decision-making. My guess though, is that they all sort of milled around and did their own thing. Which - get this - is perfectly fine. A bunch of people who are protesting in the same direction without someone holding their reins is apparently only a bad thing when it's something the owners dislike?

No, there is no one guy leading OWS. Nominating a king just makes it way easier for him to be bought (which is, of course, the reason the mouthpeices of the owners want there to be a "king" in the first place.)

Next, this "unclear focus." Really? What's unclear about it? I'll grant it's not as simple and black-and-white as many people here might be used to from their "team's" protests, but there's a good reason for this - real life is not so simplistic. OWS addresses a great many issues, because those issues need to be addressed and are, ultimately, interconnected. Our current soundbyte-driven society doesn't support this well. I can kind of imagine had this been the condition back in the 50's and 60's, people would have been dismissing the civil rights movement because they had no clear leader and what was their issue anyway? Segregation? Voting rights? Equal housing and employment? An end to police brutality? Gosh, they were so disorganized and unfocused!

"Volatile language" is a new one, I'll give you that. Sorry, but at the end of the day, it is people who see their society and livelihoods crumbling because of easily-identified corruption in the system that is not being addressed by those in charge. So if you're expecting a lot of servile "please suh," and "thank you, missuz!" and a careful avoidance of reality that some Americans find uncomfortable (such as the root cause being unfettered lasseiz-faire "capitalism") then yeah, you're going to be disappointed. Not much I can offer you there, except mention that maybe you're just being a little too nitpicky

The "recent shift towards violent protest" is laughable. Allow me to explain.

Watching video of the frenzied people in full mob mentality at Occupy Oakland, I was disturbed.

Which video is this, exactly? There are two sources of violence in Oakland right now. One, the police. I dunno if you know a lot about Oakland, but even well prior to these protests, the OPD has had a long and inglorious history of corruption and brutality.
Second is a group calling itself the "Oakland Liberation Front." These are cretins aligned with the "black bloc" assholes, and their purpose is to cause carnage, disrupt the protests, and incite the police further. In other cities - Toronto for instance - these sorts have been proven to be part of the police forces. I dunno if that's the case in Oakland, but I do know that the OLF is no more affiliated with OWS than the KKK is affiliated with hte tea party. Occupiers respond to dudes in black masks and hoods about as well as tea partiers responded when hte dudes in white hoods and masks tried to show up, in fact. In the case of OWS, they've been actively trying to protect people and property from these asshats.

Did you see that video I linked, the Oakland folks marching on the highway? There's an easy 80,000 people there. If they were into "violent protest," Oakland would not be standing, and no police could stop it.

Honestly, it's much easier to tune out a shout when you are straining to hear a whisper.

maybe some things are worth shouting over.

reply to post by relpobre000


I can agree that college should not be free. Did you notice in the video how the man taking the video used false information to entrap the kid? Highest corporate tax rate? Wow, I bet GE never knew that!

If this is what it takes to sway you from OWS then you would never support it anyway. Seems to me that some OWS folks needs to educate themselves a little more, and those against it need to step away from the propaganda!

We can do it, together!

reply to post by Afterthought


I totally agree with you about the books. Last year I bought a new physics book at the beginning of the semester (for $130) and by the end of the semester (18 weeks later) it was absolutely worthless. But if they're that angry they should go picket in front of the offices of Mcgraw-Hill.....

I was speaking more to this kid's attitude. 1.) He wants something for nothing. 2.)He doesn't seem able to articulate a sound reason for his 'opinion'. PROTIP: 'Because' might win an argument for a parent against a child but when making a real argument one is expected to back it up with logic and reason.

These two points seem to be the prevailing message from the OWS movement: 'Give Us Stuff--Because We Said So.'

reply to post by relpobre000


His attitude and speaking skill are much to be desired, but people are missing the boat on what college has become.

It used to be that high school graduates were sweating bullets about getting accepted to the ones they applied to, but now colleges are run like assembly lines. It shouldn't be this way. If you're good enough to get in, then you should. There are a lot of people in college who should be thanking their lucky stars that they even are there in the first place.

reply to post by Afterthought


A star for you-- I wholeheartedly agree with your post. But I suppose the argument about what college has become is one for another thread.

If anything I would think this video is a scathing indictment against what Universities are teaching in the way of critical thinking skills.

reply to post by relpobre000


Yes, I agree that this is more geared towards another thread, but back to the protesters demanding free college, I sort of can understand. Me being a person who didn't excel in sports and wasn't involved in any extracurricular activities because I held a job didn't open me up for any kind of scholarships or awards so I could attend college for free. I think that the protesters who are wanting a break on tuition need to start voicing their disgust at the people who are occupying seats in the classroom just so they can get their shot at becoming a pro football star.

Entertainers get paid way too much and shouldn't be going to college for free. Granted, we can throw a bit of money their way because they have talent, but not allow them to skate by totally.

Originally posted by TheWalkingFox
I see these "issues" a lot. Here's the thing; They're not true

Denial is a powerful motivator for those who choose to ignore facts.

There isn't "disorganization." These groups operate on consensus decision-making.

I'll admit, I was never in the thick of a tea party protest....
My guess though.....

Next, this "unclear focus." Really? What's unclear about it?

Lack of direction, Content and a real Agenda instead of just standing around proclaiming they they are really really really really mad.

but there's a good reason for this - real life is not so simplistic.

Exactly. You have to pay as you go instead of standing around with their hands outstretched Demanding a free handout

OWS addresses a great many issues, because those issues need to be addressed and are, ultimately, interconnected.

Yes.

And the answers are?

"Volatile language" is a new one, I'll give you that. Sorry, but at the end of the day, it is people who see their society and livelihoods crumbling because of easily-identified corruption in the system that is not being addressed by those in charge. So if you're expecting a lot of servile "please suh," and "thank you, missuz!" and a careful avoidance of reality that some Americans find uncomfortable (such as the root cause being unfettered lasseiz-faire "capitalism") then yeah, you're going to be disappointed. Not much I can offer you there, except mention that maybe you're just being a little too nitpicky

The "recent shift towards violent protest" is laughable. Allow me to explain.

Nah don't bother. People being violent towards one another shows how they really feel. That goes for both sides. It's a lose/lose prospect no matter how it's sliced.

maybe some things are worth shouting over.

Agreed.

reply to post by SLAYER69












See more here:

pjmedia.com...

The thread title should be What the Heck OWS?

Originally posted by relpobre000
I was speaking more to this kid's attitude. 1.) He wants something for nothing. 2.)He doesn't seem able to articulate a sound reason for his 'opinion'. PROTIP: 'Because' might win an argument for a parent against a child but when making a real argument one is expected to back it up with logic and reason.

Well, I have my doubts that you could manage to be concise and very clear, when put on hte spot by some camera-wielding dude on the street. I know I'd probably call into a lot of "uhm, er, ah, you know, uh..." without a little warm-up time. Public speaking is a skillset all on its own, after all.

That said... He wants a furthered education. That is, he wants to become a larger asset for future employers and his community, as well as himself. it's not as if he's saying "And I want a diamond-and-platinum tiara!" or something like that. he wants an education. An educated people is, with absolutely no question, beneficial to the state of a nation, both socially and fiscally. A great many jobs require college education. That is, unless you plan on digging ditches, as my mom used to say, you need one. It's mandatory for gainful employment. And tuition and side expenses keep going up every year. Meanwhile employment prospects keep dropping.

So in order to have a chance at getting a job that's probably not really there, you have to throw yourself into debt? You have to have a few dozen grand laying around to spare as a kid in order to further your education, or you get saddled with usurious rates

These two points seem to be the prevailing message from the OWS movement: 'Give Us Stuff--Because We Said So.'

Ever noticed that when the rank and file citizens ask for their due, it's "something for nothing?" But when others are demanding drastically lowered taxes, bailouts, subsidies, deregulation, exceptions to existing law, all while "cutting internal costs (i.e., throwing people out of a job,)" the media tells you that's perfectly fine? You obviously buy the first line.

Thought project here - if you took all of that "something for nothing" given to Pfizer, Bechtel, Lockeed-Martin, Microsoft, AIG, CitiGroup, tc... and instead turned it into "something for nothing" for the people of this country, do you think the country as a whole would see a net gain or a net loss?

Those several trillions doled out free of charge with no oversight to corporate welfare queens who had run their own businesses into the ground sure could have done a lot to improve the state of schools around the nation, don't you think? Could have been funneled into a great set of working antipoverty measures. Could have even been used to clean up and protect many of our nation's dwindling sources of fresh water. hell, it could have funded real public health care.

But no, it went into massive bonuses for the very people who had destroyed the company it was given to. Becuase that is apparently a better use of taxpayer money than improving the conditions that said taxpayers live under. After all, those people want "something for nothing."

reply to post by TheWalkingFox


ok i am very angry at you OP... you should have broken each point into seperate posts...so i could give you more stars. that was a great rant and i agree 100% the anti OWS folks are for the most part, the tea partiers... they just cant seem to get the point. it isnt about agreeing on every point, its about standing in solidarity with your fellow brothers and sisters and in unison shouting " this must end!"

there needs to be a dramatic paradigm shift in this country and it isn't left/right it is from corporatism to humanism.
if we dont get each others backs no one will.

when they came for the Jews i did not stop them i am not a Jew........

‘All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing’

reply to post by 46ACE


people need to really stop looking at OWS as a single entity. think of it as 10,000 separate protests all at the same time. that is why it has refused to be co opted that is why it refuses to take endorsements.

to successfully infiltrate the movement would take 20's of thousands of agents because each person brings their own seperate issues to the protest. think of it as group therapy.

reply to post by TheWalkingFox


You've made a huge jump in your argument (from a logical standpoint). You've insinuated that if I don't support this kid's free University education that I am in full support of the corporate bail outs in America.

I'm not sure I understand how you came to this conclusion. You've highlighted another short coming of the movement: the 'if you don't agree with this point you kill kittens' tactic.

I support neither socialized university education nor did I support the bail outs these companies received from the United States Government. During the aftermath of the subprime mortgage crisis I wrote letters to my local, state, and federal representatives--as well as voted--which is more action than most people within this movement have taken.

reply to post by relpobre000

higher education in this country should be free and decided on academic merit alone. there was a time in this country when an education was a valuable prize, a key to a better future. today it is an onerous burden that keeps you enslaved for many years after it is completed. i graduated in 2003...i am still paying my student loans and it should take about 2 to 3 more years before it is completely paid off.

reply to post by CaDreamer


Did someone come to your home, put a gun to your head, and make you take out a student loan? Did your high school guidance counselor use threats or extortion to force you to attend college?

My guess is no. No one forced you to do anything. Equal opportunity ≠ Equal outcome.

reply to post by TheWalkingFox

"The system is broken."
"When are the people going to do something?"
"How much can they take?"
"There ought to be a revolution."
"The media is bought."
"Both parties are corrupt in America."
"We won't stand for the NWO."

I challenge you or anyone else to ever find me say any of these things.

This isn't my philosohpy...my philosophy is that I play the game that is being played, I use the system that is given to me. I have no interest in changing anything...I am interested in using the current system to get the results I want.

I'm not even against expoiting the system that is given to me...but I have zero interest in trying to tear down the current system and replace it or having a revolution.


I don't care that I agree with a few issues that OWS speaks out against....there is too much that they support that I can not agree with. I don't associate myself with questionable organizations...I don't like surprises...I don't want to have to defend an organization I openly support because tomorrow they might burn down a city or kill a cop.


I offer no apologizes for my non-support of OWS. I don't care that people on ATS that used to agree with me and count me as a friend try to insult me, talk behind my back, and act like children. That is an issue they have to resolve with their own character faults....not me.

For those who like to call people "sheeple" who don't support OWS....ask yourself this....who is doing the following of a brand new, poorly defined movement???

Originally posted by CaDreamer
reply to post by 46ACE

 

people need to really stop looking at OWS as a single entity. think of it as 10,000 separate protests all at the same time. that is why it has refused to be co opted that is why it refuses to take endorsements.

to successfully infiltrate the movement would take 20's of thousands of agents because each person brings their own seperate issues to the protest. think of it as group therapy.

CA,10000 separate voices,at 10000 separate protests? Thats called noise.

Infiltration? This video speaks volumes.........

This is the actual rally......
The women RIGHT behind her is a long supporter of Communism.



And this is some of the 'everyday" protesters at OWS,again no real message,or many different messages,Americans arnt buying into.





By all means protest though. Just dont expect the rest of America to join you.

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
All I can guess is that the programming worked.

The dwindling middle and upper middle class, who are comfortable in their homes with their Blu-rays and i-phones aren't going to buck the system that is insuring this comfort. The 'haves' want to keep what they have and not become a 'have not'... What they don't realize is that they are one step away from becoming one.

How people can continue to support a system that insures their own demise is BEYOND me. It IS a conspiracy. One worth talking about. Thanks Fox.

Programming hasn't worked, its just nobody can come up with a better solution to what we already have.


reply to post by SLAYER69


I know there hasn't been one real message, but i was under the assumption OWS was against making money from nothing. Consider the retirement funds of 50 million(this is small scale) Americans with 401k that investment bankers can spend on whatever they want, at any point in time and basically run the stock market. I know if i had i had access to $20,050,000,000 dollars in other peoples money i could turn a healthy profit! (or massive loss)

Nothing against companies making products for consumers to purchase and use. (This was my grasp on the situation)

I'm willing to be corrected on my understanding of our current system!

reply to post by relpobre000


Right, there are kids with expensive degrees now, hundreds of thousands that can't even find a part time janitorial job, or a job in the fast food industry, and may also have applications pending at local wal marts everywhere.

What good is higher education, free or otherwise in a country where economic growth, jobs, manufacturing etc are all declining?

Until government policies are changed (restricting growth and business), spending cut, trade and immigration issues etc. are confronted higher education is irrelevant.

I know a kid in my home town with a law degree that nearly bankrupted his parents, 8 months now, and he still can't find work that would make use of his degree in any way.

They can chant "education is a right and should be free" "Having a job is a right" or anything else they want until blue in the faces and it wont change a damned thing.

If the people and this government do not confront the real problems then everyone of us loses here ultimately.

Forget the left and right, communists and capitalists for a moment... We the people, all of us, together, like it or not need to realize that without major changes in government policies etc. we will all be too busy fighting for survival to have time to protest anything eventually.

reply to post by Benevolent Heretic

All I can guess is that the programming worked.

That's dissapointing.

If you aren't for OWS...you are "programmed". If you aren't for OWS...you are a "sheeple". If you aren't for OWS...you aren't a real liberal. If you aren't for OWS...you are wrong. If you aren't for OWS...you are stupid.

All things I've heard on ATS since OWS has fired up...and then OWS talks about the "media" dividing us.

OWS uses the "you are either with us or against us" mentality more than any other organization or movement that I have seen.

And it's dissapointing.

reply to post by Fractured.Facade


That is why MANY on ATS have been telling those that support this movement,to Occupy DC,in MASS.
Unfortunately,you keep hearing its the "Banks",and Corporate greed,Eat the rich,etc..........................And

The Fed is in DC. The Bank that Prints the Money.The Bank that has given SECRETIVELY, 16 TRILLION,that we know of,to other Banks and Corporations,because they felt they were to big to fail is, THE BIGGEST PERPETRATORS OF FRAUD IN THE HISTORY OF THIS COUNTRY.


Where is Occupy DC? Where is Occupy the FED? Where are the millions of PROTESTORS ?

Scattered,
Everywhere else.