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ATS and OWS: What the heck, ATS?

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posted on Nov, 5 2011 @ 09:12 AM
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Hit the nail on the head again, Fox. It seems as though those who claim to be enlightened are not so much.

ATS has not been immune from the powers that wish to direct or way of thinking. In fact, the current direction may be helping that along.

But great post!

By the way, I can't stand how people against OWS and the left throw the word "patriot" around. It's like the newest fad for people to say when they are losing an argument. Just an observation.




posted on Nov, 5 2011 @ 09:17 AM
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off-topic post removed to prevent thread-drift


 



posted on Nov, 5 2011 @ 09:22 AM
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reply to post by theRhenn
 


Defensive much? I don't recall shoving any words into your throat or anywhere else.

I asked three relatively simple questions.



posted on Nov, 5 2011 @ 09:36 AM
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reply to post by Open_Minded Skeptic
 


You asked questions and "pinned" me as this or that when the answers to your questions were in my responce.

You used my responce to further your own base on why ATSers do one thing or the other. I didnt bait you in my responce. Why would you try to bait me? Just because I dont conform to your points or feel the same as you, does not mean that YOUR alternative is correct. That's exactly what your 3 "simple" questions were. If it wasnt, you would have taken the answer from the tons of information I spent time writing in responce to your OP.


so.... defensive? Yes, when you cant read the words in front of you and wander off into something that you turned around by using a play of words.

Oh! So if it's not this, then it MUST be this!

See what I did there?



posted on Nov, 5 2011 @ 10:08 AM
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Jesus! Be careful asking questions around here. You might make someone cry! Nobody "pinned" you as anything, except maybe defensive, which you admit you are. A question is not an accusation.


Originally posted by Afterthought
When was the last time you voted for someone even though you didn't agree with them on every single issue?


Every single time I've voted.
This "I don't agree with everything" position is also interesting to me. I think it's an 'excuse' to be against OWS, so as not to be seen as a weak liberal.
I'm not afraid to admit that I might vote for Ron Paul. II can't figure why people are afraid to say that maybe the OWS liberals have it right this time.


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posted on Nov, 5 2011 @ 10:12 AM
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Originally posted by TheWalkingFox
I've been on ATS since 2003. At the time I was lurking


So have many others...


And ATS' response to people doing exactly as it has asked, hoped, dreamed, predicted, and advocated for over a decade?


Many of us {Who agree in principle with the movement} ask hard hitting questions and have expressed concern about the movements lack of direction, content and a real agenda. Instead of getting real answers we get called neocons, brainwashed sheeple, paid dis-info agents etc. Alienating those who would otherwise join the movement.


And ATS' response


Originally posted by Afterthought
Blah, blah, I don't agree with everything they want, so blah, blah, blah.



You were saying?



This movement is nothing, after all, just a bunch of confused dirty hippies, right?


I don't see them as such. However, the movement needs to clean itself up and address real issues in places that can and will affect real change. Say Washington DC. How is protesting Wall Street accomplishing any of that? Seriously...

Do you think that the hundreds of Billions being traded electronically will be effected? Do these squatters expect the Governments to respond when all there is where they're located are the sounds of Crickets instead of Millions of Citizens in an uproar? Meanwhile back at the ranch, Wall Street keeps chugging along feeling no ill effect. Go after the FED and corrupt bureaucrats that have been Corporate lackeys. Then we'll talk.


Why, the media


I wouldn't know. I don't watch TV. To me they are all corrupt.
RT, BBC, PressTV, ABC, CBS, NBC, FOX, CNN.... Be advised...They all spin it the way they want.


While pledging ourselves against ignorance, we seem to have a movement within our own ranks to occlude and distract and even just plain lie about hte situations at hand.


There's the rub. Many here assume they speak for the majority when in fact they don't. Stop with the assumptions and the movement may garner more badly needed support. I'll decide who and what I protest when I feel it is appropriate not when I'm told. I don't like it when the Government tries to dictate it and I sure as hell wont when some nameless, faceless clown online decides whats good for me or mine.

Just a thought.


Why is that?


Because as you have already pointed out. ATS is a group made up mostly of free thinkers who will not stand for ANY group {Be they Governments, institutions or Online faceless nameless clowns} dictating to them terms.



So what's the deal, ATS posters? Why can we demand action for ten years, and then throw beer cans at the people who try? How is it so many of us can stand in solidarity with people whose #1 goal was ensuring the nation's motto remained "In God We Trust," but so few of us can voice even the mildest positive about the people who are trying to change the real problems we're all facing?


As many have already pointed out it isn't the cause but the course of action and it's lack of direction, content and leadership.



George Soros, together with ACORN, Barrack HUSSEIN!!!!! Osama, and Michael Moore today exerted their immense and diabolical powers to influence the deluded denizens of occupy Tacoma


Nasty bedfellows.
You know what they say about sleeping with the Devil...


So yeah. Hey. What the hell, guys? Just... what the hell? A few years ago I'd have thought we could throw in behind something like this. Was I wrong


One shouldn't put all their eggs in one basket nor count them chickens until they've hatched.
edit on 5-11-2011 by SLAYER69 because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 5 2011 @ 10:29 AM
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If this movement had as its main objective to oppose big government, and military, wars and the oppressive policies that have brought down the economy, and are destroying the true American dream not just for the middle class but for all of these youths who may have hoped for a good future of their own.... But will now either exist on government assistance or service jobs for meager pay, no benefits.

If this was about restoring liberty and freedom, smaller government in our lives, less taxes and more growth for EVERYONE... rather than hundreds at these rallies, you'd have tens of thousands everywhere, millions at times and it would only keep gaining momentum and growing over time.

That isn't going to happen here... At best OWS may have gained the support of 1% of the american population... Ironic?

They blame the corporate world for all of this, but without first confronting the government and policies it is a waste of time.

In short, it is impossible for the majority of people to support this, because leadership, motive and direction are everything.


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posted on Nov, 5 2011 @ 10:35 AM
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It's been about 6 or 7 weeks since this whole thing began, what greed have they stopped? Have they stopped the corruption? What successes can they claim up to this point?

If OWS want to protest, then let them protest. But don't expect me to join their crowd until they can prove to me that they can effectively target corporations without hurting the same people they supposedly represent.



posted on Nov, 5 2011 @ 10:49 AM
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reply to post by TheWalkingFox
 


I totally agree. I find it rather bemusing and amuzing that so many here oppose the OWS...It's a real head scratcher in my opinion. Then there again, this place has been so infiltrated by conservative "Christian", flag waving, no government culpibility individuals in the past few years, I suppose it shouldn't be that much of a shocker.



posted on Nov, 5 2011 @ 10:54 AM
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reply to post by TheWalkingFox
 


Good points, Fox.

In my lifetime I've found that the thing that most humans hate above all else is change. They fear stepping into the unknown. And change is what OWS represents. Worse, it represents unknowable change, becauase so much of the systems we all live under is so rotten, pointing to one specific part and saying change this to that is impossible, merely changing one thing, two things, or three things still leaves so much rot that it will soon spread and overtake the things we have comfortably changed.

If you look back on my posts, I have been warning all year that there wasn't much time left before all hell broke loose. In August I gave it mere weeks. In a small way I feel vindicated, but that is immaterial. My point in mentioning it is to lend credibility to the extent and depth of my observations: I study the world very hard on multiple levels.

It seems to me that most of the complaints about OWS reek of desperation. The world IS changing, and the change is unpredictable. For those who for years have complained about this, that,and the other, demanding change from the comfort of their current position, knowing how unlikely true change was, real change, suddenly upon them, is terrifying. They do not understand it and are unable to cope with, hence they attack the messengers.

We are in the process of formulating a new social contract.

The messages from OWS are many and mixed because the problems are many and mixed. The major theme I hear from the anti crowd is that we should use the old ways to find a new one: change the corrupt government, work harder, see to your own business. Changing corrupt governments merely changes faces, as it doesn't address the source of the corruption. Working harder doesn't get us anywhere as a country: everyone works hard to survive, and the poor work hardest of all to do so. Seeing to your own business ignores the society within which we live.

The root of the problem is unlimited wealth and the competition to be the world's richest guy.

Change that and you change everything.

I have spoken to this many times and have been derided by those same antis for being naive, a socialist, communist, etc, etc, much the same as they deride OWS. They can't face change, even change that makes life better for them and everyone else.

The problem is that a man dedicated to accumulating wealth doesn't know when to say when: it is an addiction. Having more doesn't satisfy it. And when a man who has $20 billion looks up and sees a man with $50 billion, he redoubles his efforts and demands more from his underlings so as to catch up and stop feeling poor. The guy with $50 billion looks down and feels threatened by the guy catching up. It is unsustainable: no amount of productivity increase will ever be enough to cover their collective demands for more.

The solution, the only solution, is to cap wealth at some reasonably huge but not socially destructive figure, and force retirement from wealth-building at that point. The anti-OWS crowd will scream about trashing individual rights to make as much money and hog as much wealth as they want, but these are the screams of immature adolescents who have yet to understand that just because they want something doesn't give them the right to it.

Our global society must and will change.

It is changing as we speak.

I pray the direction of that change goes in is one where wealth limits are imposed. There is enough for all of us to live comfortably, to strive and to honestly earn more through hard work and brilliant ideas so long as we don't continue allow the few to greedily soak up the results of what we produce to the detriment of the majority.

Whether any of us like it or not, change is coming and a new social paradigm is being wrought. What we are witnessing are the birth pangs. Whether it will give birth to a healthy society or a deformed monster is yet to been seen.

Some of my solutions for the mess we are in:

To OWS: what you/we should be demanding

Should screening for genetic sociopathy be mandatory for politicians and police?

Who owns our time? The right to A life

What would REAL House reform look like?
edit on 5-11-2011 by apacheman because: (no reason given)


I'll bet I can get you to happily pay more than your fair share of taxes

Would a wealth cap save the global economy?
edit on 5-11-2011 by apacheman because: add links



posted on Nov, 5 2011 @ 11:10 AM
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reply to post by Benevolent Heretic
 



I think it's an 'excuse' to be against OWS, so as not to be seen as a weak liberal.


I'm in agreement. But, honestly, I don't see how anyone can claim to be conservative or liberal, democratic or republican. I have to claim myself as Independent because I'm mostly conservative, but have some liberal viewpoints.

If people would just do something besides complain about those who are trying to speak up, things would get better. If they want their views and demands to be heard, they have to go and join the herd protesting. The squeaky wheel usually gets the grease, but if you just complain "nobody shares my concerns", then nothing will get done about the issues you want addressed.

The main question that nobody can answer is "What is best for our country as a whole?"



posted on Nov, 5 2011 @ 11:17 AM
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Originally posted by jam321
It's been about 6 or 7 weeks since this whole thing began, what greed have they stopped? Have they stopped the corruption? What successes can they claim up to this point?


You know I respect your opinions most of the time, even if I don't agree with them. But I need to say something about this.

First, realize that you are expecting measurable results after approximately 50 days from a MAJOR undertaking that involves the citizens of this country coming together in an (overwhelmingly) peaceful effort to go up against the Goliath of the economy in order to take back their country ... Are you serious? 50 days?


Originally posted by jam321
If OWS want to protest, then let them protest. But don't expect me to join their crowd until they can prove to me that they can effectively target corporations without hurting the same people they supposedly represent.


Secondly, you seem to think that the time to join a movement is when it starts working to serve you. When in reality, it's the other way around. The protesters are the ones who are going to MAKE this effort successful (if it is) and I doubt they'd need more people to be 'joining' at that point.

Their goal is not to hurt the people they represent. Their goal is to challenge the status quo. You may not agree with their methods, but I don't get the criticism of their goals.



posted on Nov, 5 2011 @ 11:38 AM
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reply to post by SLAYER69
 


It's good to see you.


Originally posted by SLAYER69
Many of us {Who agree in principle with the movement} ask hard hitting questions and have expressed concern about the movements lack of direction, content and a real agenda. Instead of getting real answers we get called neocons, brainwashed sheeple, paid dis-info agents etc. Alienating those who would otherwise join the movement.


I could not agree more with you here. I don't know what causes this, but I feel very much as I did when the Tea Party started. It was a conservative-leaning movement to take back the country. The GOP and the media struggled for a couple months deciding how to respond and when they did, the movement lost its way and was overtaken and just gutted. It's now the extreme right of the GOP.

Now, we're in the beginning stages of another movement, only this one leans to the left. What will happen with this one is still up in the air. And unless people are willing to ASK and ANSWER questions without getting defensive, protective. making assumptions and judgments, this effort will surely fail as well.

Problem is that the underlying DIVISION that has been drilled into us over the past # of years causes suspicion and team mentality that have become MORE important than our egos... and the division wins again. The people divide over political lines instead of coming together to affect change in the areas we can agree on, which are many.

Think of the power if we could unite and fight division together...



However, the movement needs to clean itself up and address real issues in places that can and will affect real change.


I agree. I said the same exact thing about the Tea Party. But this is just the beginning of it. There's a chance that they'll figure out how they can be more effective. They do need leaders, though.



posted on Nov, 5 2011 @ 11:57 AM
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posted on Nov, 5 2011 @ 12:06 PM
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Originally posted by TheWalkingFox
Is it because ATS is infested with "paid disinfo agents," as some put it?


Yup your right!!

We make $465.00 from our undisclosed disinfo agency.

I got 8 stacks just from anti-OWS posts.

Who knew making money could be so easy!!!

Although I am making money posting anti-OWS posts

I can even see that these are anti-capitalism protests and
PRO-socialism/communist protests.
I will never support socialism or communism
and this utopia the OWS have in there head
DOES NOT EXIST WILL NEVER EXIST.

Maybe people do not support OWS because they
do not support communism (hitler) or socialism (stalin)

Maybe some people have enough sense to pull there head out
of there ass and actually think about and see what is going on!
It is called critical thinking!!!

That's the thing, you "think" your protesting the elite and they laugh at you.

What your doing is causing CHAOS for the elite, so the elite can then grab more power from you,
and everyone else.

You guys are protesting FOR MORE TAXES!!! TAXING THE RICH!!

TAXING ANYONE MORE is crazy and feeding the system they run with MORE money
and hurting the middle class making THEM who you protest bigger!!
Not hurting multi-billionaires (buffet) and multi-millionaires(Michael Morre) Hurting the people that give us jobs!
Hurting people who are the backbone of America.

Maybe you OWS supporters just do not see it yet.

It sure looks like anti-American protests to us you call haters
IT also looks like anti-American protests to the OUTSIDE WORLD!!

Funny how Iran
sees OWS protests



He further pointed to the anti-capitalism protests in the US, and said the 99 percenters in the US will not allow the White House to escape ahead through hostile moves.

"We support the 99 percenters who are opposing the US policies at home and abroad with our maximum power and strength and we will prosecute the US statesmen."

english.farsnews.com...

Iran fully supports OWS
It MUST be a good thing..

The OWS protesters are being played from forces they can not even comprehend
that want them dead.

WAKE UP!!

Why the heck do you think people oppose it?

THIS IS NOT IT!

OWS is not something *special*
Stop thinking because you support OWS
YOUR SPECIAL your not!!

Stop being ignorant and do some research,
They keep calling ANTI-OWS posters
HATEFUL? I have not see so much hate in my life
from one movement and the attacks that have come
from PRO-ows supporters..

GROW UP!!


edit on 5-11-2011 by popsmayhem because: (no reason given)
edit on 5-11-2011 by popsmayhem because: (no reason given)


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posted on Nov, 5 2011 @ 12:07 PM
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Originally posted by SLAYER69


There's the rub. Many here assume they speak for the majority when in fact they don't. Stop with the assumptions and the movement may garner more badly needed support. I'll decide who and what I protest when I feel it is appropriate not when I'm told. I don't like it when the Government tries to dictate it and I sure as hell wont when some nameless, faceless clown online decides whats good for me or mine.



Excellent Post!


Thats my biggest problem actually. When I went to my Local OWS,you had those screaming "if you aint with us your against us!" mantra. Heck,I get that on ATS,so when i heard it actually at OWS,I was like "really"? Here I am,an Independent,who really had misgivings about marching with you folks in the first place,rubbing arm in arm with you,as you hold up partisan signs,like "Recall Walker" (Wisconsin Governor), Big Union backing,and mixed in with all that,inner city folks looking for JOBS.The General assembly was more of a rant . No clear agenda,besides Tax the Rich. Apolitical it wasn't. I took the advice of those on ATS to actually see what OWS was all about. I am glad I did. I learned................ The "OWS majority" of ATS is not the majority of ATS. OWS is not the Majority of America.



posted on Nov, 5 2011 @ 12:22 PM
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I appreciate the sentiment behind OWS in the sense that I believe people have the right to make a stand for their beliefs, and should do so at any opportunity. Peacefully.

The disorganization, unclear focus, volatile language, and recent shift toward violent protest does not appeal to me.

Watching video of the frenzied people in full mob mentality at Occupy Oakland, I was disturbed.

Honestly, it's much easier to tune out a shout when you are straining to hear a whisper.



posted on Nov, 5 2011 @ 12:27 PM
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I still don't understand how the people who this movement is trying to represent are turning on the protesters. It reminds me of the movie "The Beach" when a surfer becomes severely injured in a shark attack, the rest of the community moves him away from the camp to go die in the woods where he's out of sight and mind, as long as it doesn't affect their way of life. It's a combination of fear of change and herd-mentality.

I don't see any harm in protesting for workers rights, a higher standard of living and accountability in corporate greed. You think no working person would be against such a plight, but they've been informed by talking heads that these protesters are after what little the working person has. It's a very simple divide and conquer tactic that has been implemented extremely easily due to herd-mentality, gullibility and lack of critical thinking.

The mockery simply makes it look foolish. No one wants to be on the receiving end of mockery. To avoid it they become the mockers and start the ol' point and laugh routine. Once again it's merely fear of standing out from the crowd: herd mentality. They use buzz-words such as communist, socialist, leftist and hippy as derogatory terms to help discredit and further their agenda. They can't even support their right to protest.

And it worked. Even the protesters themselves have degenerated into bands of homeless and disenfranchised youth.

This saddens me to say, but I think that representing everyone (99%) in the protest was a huge mistake. Apparently, 99% of that 99% are still content being robbed of the scraps they call their own.


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posted on Nov, 5 2011 @ 12:38 PM
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I think this video pretty much sums up my disdain for the movement. It's all about the 'gimme gimme gimme' attitude that the youth of this country has these days. I think that sense of entitlement will eventually be our downfall...

Oh well..as long as these kids feel like they're standing up to 'The Man'...



posted on Nov, 5 2011 @ 12:41 PM
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reply to post by relpobre000
 


If you haven't seen the documentary "The College Conspiracy", you should watch it.

I'm not about totally free college, but the fact that text books are updated every year is unnecessary and causes too much waste. When I was in college, you could still sell your books to the underclassmen, but now the texts are new every year. I can see books being updated every 6-10 years, but every year is stupid. How much can a math book change? Or physics and Elizabethan literature? Not a whole lot.





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