ATS and OWS: What the heck, ATS?

reply to post by TheWalkingFox


It's quite simple really.

People love to argue/debate/degrade fellow posters.

This place has never been about true open-hearted debates with true back-and-forth creating more understanding about topics.
It's quite the opposite actually. Pick any post, someone makes a claim, people back it up or applaud while just as many use degrading comments and cite the topic as completely false. Then, add in those few people who are more then respected, they are followed. Anything they say is golden to those who frequent here and their word is final, same as a MODS.

The people who peruse here and just participate have the mentality of "proving a point" or about "showing agreement with one poster" or about "telling some guy how wrong he was". When that happens all this place is, is a forum full of debates on topics, interesting and otherwise..

It's not a fact driven forum, it's not a forum of peers. It's Stranger A talking to Stranger B about Stranger C's post that they believe without proof is false but will reply 20 times in 4 pages to make their point heard more then the OP.

Forums only create problems, doesn't matter which one your on, anonymity makes people irresponsible blow-hards...from a certain perspective I am part of the problem, but if you can't beat 'em...

Couple all that with the posting rules and yea, you got ATS.

Originally posted by relpobre000

I think this video pretty much sums up my disdain for the movement. It's all about the 'gimme gimme gimme' attitude that the youth of this country has these days. I think that sense of entitlement will eventually be our downfall...

Oh well..as long as these kids feel like they're standing up to 'The Man'...

Are you under the impression that one idiot is the representative of all OWS protestors around the world?

Yes, that guy is an idiot.... If you talk to all OWS protestors and all of them are as stupid as this guy, then your disdain will be justified.

But, to base your disdain on a single video of a single idiot.....Come on, is that really fair to you?

Just trying to keep both sides honest here.

reply to post by TheWalkingFox

New members and the grading generational curve who have been inundated with propaganda their entire lives pre-internet is the reason for such skewing...that and reverse paranoia from the paranoid...

Onward and forward...the snowball is a just barely heavy enough for me pick up and it is just gaining mass...

reply to post by gimme_some_truth


I said it 'sums up' my disdain for the movement. I assure you that this video isn't the singular lynchpin in my argument against the movement.

That said, this kid's attitude does irk me and does seem to be a central theme in the OWS...

ETA: I respect the point you were trying to make but I've done a little more homework than a cursory glance at youtube

Originally posted by relpobre000

I think this video pretty much sums up my disdain for the movement. It's all about the 'gimme gimme gimme' attitude that the youth of this country has these days. I think that sense of entitlement will eventually be our downfall...

Oh well..as long as these kids feel like they're standing up to 'The Man'...

I dislike you due to your ignorance, I am only basing it on this one post and your profile picture, but it should be enough to pretty much sum you up.

Of course, I say that to prove a point. I do not actually have any strong feelings one way or another about you. I know this one video only sums up your belief, however, you have been misled. While everyone is yelling about what they want, certain people only hear certain things about the movement. All people's voices are loud right now, if some bum in OWS decided to scream about Genocide, would OWS be about genocide now to you?

Try to seperate the people from the ideal. Sure some guys are commies in the movement, some leftist, some just scared moms and dads who want to be sure they can retire gracefully, some are just young people hoping for a future that isn't bleak, but hey lets lump everyone into the dumb/idiot category and wash our hands of this

Star Wars said it best "Only Siths Deal in Absolutes". Replace Sith with Evil if your not aware of Star Wars.

Originally posted by CaDreamer
reply to post by 46ACE

 

people need to really stop looking at OWS as a single entity. think of it as 10,000 separate protests all at the same time. that is why it has refused to be co opted that is why it refuses to take endorsements.

to successfully infiltrate the movement would take 20's of thousands of agents because each person brings their own seperate issues to the protest. think of it as group therapy.

Excellent Post!

I don't stand with the minority communists, but I do stand with those protesters that agree on getting money out of politics, and getting Wall Street out of Washington. The majority of people I have talked to online, and at protests agree on these issues.

There will be other views I don't agree with but that is a given with so many people with different views. When elections used to work in this country, before politicians were bought out, people of many ideas and interests, communists, socialists, democrats, republicans, independents etc, came together under an election movement to change the country in the direction they wanted.

That is no longer possible, since politicians are bought, and these protests are the only other alternative for the people gathering together and speaking their mind and demanding and end to these things so everyone is represented.

Originally posted by relpobre000
reply to post by TheWalkingFox

 

You've made a huge jump in your argument (from a logical standpoint). You've insinuated that if I don't support this kid's free University education that I am in full support of the corporate bail outs in America.

I'm not sure I understand how you came to this conclusion. You've highlighted another short coming of the movement: the 'if you don't agree with this point you kill kittens' tactic.

I support neither socialized university education nor did I support the bail outs these companies received from the United States Government. During the aftermath of the subprime mortgage crisis I wrote letters to my local, state, and federal representatives--as well as voted--which is more action than most people within this movement have taken.

edit on 5-11-2011 by relpobre000 because: grammar

and I did not support the bailouts either. How did that work out? It does not matter what you or I want. It is the master banksters, buying their puppets that they represent. So, you should stand up in these protests for things you agree with, so that the voice for those issues becomes louder.
You sure are not going to effect change via the ballot box.

Posting this here since noone has responded to it:


I support the Wall Street Protests and side with those that want an end to the corruption between Wall Street and our Government.

Unlike some of the characterizations put forth about the protesters on Wall Street, I have a good job and am quite satisfied with how much I make as well. I don't want other people's money nor do I want a handout from the government either.

Having said that, what I do want is for our system to be equal in justice and opportunity for all citizens in this country.

If your a well to do financial investment banker and run over a guy on a bike, then the same charges that would be filed against a poor person and the following punishment, should be leveled against the banker as well. But, that is not what we see in America today, where if you have the financial means, you can pay off people to escape the same punishment and get away with a slap on the wrist.

Also, everyone should have the same opportunity to succeed, but when you pay off politicians, or even go so far as to be a politician from some Wall Street Bank, you have used the tax payers money to benefit you and your cronies at everyone else's expense and given yourself opportunity that not everyone else has access to.

What we have today is 10 financial lobbyists per congress member from Wall Street, and more Wall Street Bankers turned politician, then back to Wall Street than ever be for.

Obama the socialist has his admin full of Wall Street Banksters, whom must also be socialist.
Look at the donations from Wall Street to Obama:

Goldman Sachs $1,013,091
JPMorgan Chase & Co $808,799
Citigroup Inc $736,771
Time Warner $624,618
Morgan Stanley $512,232
Latham & Watkins $503,295


That must be a tough web to weave around for those against Obama but Pro Wall Street, and yet anti OWS.

I am for smaller government as well, because with smaller government, these leeches at the top will hold no power at my and everyone else's expense. I would say a government 5% of the size it is today would suffice, and the welfare 1% would have to put on their bootstraps and make it in a free market, rather than holding their hand out to their sugar daddy or having rules tailored to benefit them and their cronies.


There are some here that would not want to join OWS because there are gasp, communist and socialists sympathizers in the movement.

Yea, and when we rally around election time, did you also know there are also communists, socialists, repubs, dems etc in that movement as well?

I side with those in the protests against the corruption we have, and getting money out of politics and from the talking I have done with some of these protesters, I realize there are more of them that have my own views as well and did not come across one that is communist or socialist, despite how the media likes to portray them as the majority.

What I find annoying is the usurpation of the phrase "hard-working" by conservatives who think liberals/socialists/communists/whatever they dislike don't, can't, or won't work hard.

In my lifetime I've met more conservatives who felt entitled by race, by position, or by wealth to take advantage of everything and everyone they could than I have ever met liberals who felt that way. Conservatives tend to hoard and resent sharing anything, while most liberals will share whatever they've got. Conservatives tend to mental laziness: look at how many recycled arguments and labels from the fifties, sixties, and seventies they bring to every discussion: they haven't learned or entertained a new thought in decades. I haven't seen a genuine hippie in about thirty years or so.

I'm not sure if I'm a liberal or conservative: I support gun rights to the point of creating a t-shirt pointing out that "well-regulated" meant "well-equipped" when the amendment was written; I never give my word unless I mean to keep it and am bound by it once given; I work hard, very hard, (I'm taking a break between bouts of pick and shovel work to write this) and have done so all my life; I share willingly with others, even if I'm down to my last bit of whatever; I have true family values, I've care for my disabled brother my whole life, unlike many conservatives I've known who wouldn't lift a finger for their kin if their kin were starving, homeless, or drug-addicted.

Too many are casting this in the old paradigm of demo/repub, conservative/liberal, socialist/capitalist. They are apparently unable or unwilling to wrap their minds around the fact that those labels and positions are things of the past and what is in the process of being crafted by the immense outpouring of dissatisfaction that OWS represents is none of the above.

Perhaps that is it: they, personally aren't dissatisfied, because they've benefited from the corruption and abuse the the old ways represent, and learning to cope with the changes, working hard to change and accept change is too much effort for them.

The old ways are easy and profitable for them, without pain since they refuse to accept personal responsibility for the damage the ways the benefit from have done to everyone else.

reply to post by EspyderMan


That's fair enough. The topic of the OP is: why isn't everyone behind this movement? I posted that video to make a point. I'm not supportive of the OWS because it is not a coherent or cohesive movement. There are so many different messages within the movement that it detracts from its effectiveness.

The OP wrote that people have called for some kind of movement/action for years and now that it's here the OP can't figure out why there are critics. From a personal standpoint it's because I'm not such a malcontent that I would latch on to the first loosely organized protest movement without asking a few questions.

So what if there are a few communists in the fray? So what if there are people protesting that don't understand the first thing about economics or the downfalls of socialism?
But I, for one, cannot shrug my shoulders and take the good with the bad with regards to the OWS movement. Instead I have chosen to be a vocal opponent.

Pardon the ramble.

Well ops
Its like this...you got plenty of brainwashed corporatist and lackys that ride into a -certain- political ideology...and yep, they voice their rather loud and obnoxious opinion here.
The lesser people either become silent due to intimidation (don't want to challenge the loud mouth), or otherwise simply walk away when the chorus of corruption begins to reign.

ATS is not -really- a neutral post now...its a corporatist base for total disinfo, brainwashing, and nonsense to be sputtered out loudly...meanwhile the ones that are following the big picture are either keeping silent (realizing ATS is also little more than some random internet forum full of extremists) or are being slammed the second they open their mouth in support of the people over the corporatist.

My suggestion...take names...observe the stands..this way, you know who to dismiss in future subject matters..their minds are corrupted and totally washed from any reason...wouldn't trust that person to debate a ham sandwich.

I myself am overall keeping silent about this movement...I see the ATS being inconsequencial overall...rehashed talking points from whatever limbaugh vomited earlier that day splattered on these forums like the person has had an original thought, and the same people speaking the same old views with no consideration outside of their pre-programmed talking points to think...so, whats the point...even if you convince everyone on ATS one way or another...it still means absolutely nothing.

Want your words to make a difference...as stupid as it sounds, places like 4chan and such tend to be far more influencial towards the common pc user

And finally, nobody ever accused a conspiracy theorist of being sensible/reasonable...sort of comes with the terrain...if it becomes popular to revolt...well, the conspiracy would be in allying with apathy or scorn towards the popular opinion...but I agree it is amusing to watch soo many eat themselves and wave the flag of facism over a democratic revolutuion. I guess they need more overt corporate sponsorship before they accept it.

Originally posted by relpobre000
reply to post by EspyderMan

 

That's fair enough. The topic of the OP is: why isn't everyone behind this movement? I posted that video to make a point. I'm not supportive of the OWS because it is not a coherent or cohesive movement. There are so many different messages within the movement that it detracts from its effectiveness.

In one area I agree
there are 400 messages going on...however
there is a overall arching theme to it all..which is corporatist favoritism and middle/lower class punishment. The average person on the street can be highly vocal about specifics of what motivates him/her, or may simply be frustrated overall with absolutely insane 3rd world nation level wealth disparity going on...but the theme is not equality, but fairness...fairness is required to support a middle class...not equality

A millionaire losing 50% of their pay a year laughs and still buys ferrari's...a middle class person losing 50% of their income is starving and riding around on a bike...this is equal, but not fair..

This is the theme...now, what can be gauged by the theme? well, many things, but its all related. I suggest it is all about tariffs towards developing nations until they get employee standardization, hammer out of the country those corporations that have purchased our government/scotus, and make it inhospitable for a corporation to do work here in the us if they are only using it as a hub to sell us stuff while it is manufactured over in china or such...eject them, then smack them with huge tariffs for being little more than a cyphon

Murder the outsourcing industry...lay heavy tax penaltys on corporations that do this without the need..etc etc...basically rebound the economy through the consideration of the middle class, not rebound the profit of the highest 1% at the expense of the middle class.

So ya...focus on the theme...the message will be jumbled, because it is a democratic movement of a theme, not a corporate fueled faux movement against a political party.

Originally posted by apacheman
What I find annoying is the usurpation of the phrase "hard-working" by conservatives who think liberals/socialists/communists/whatever they dislike don't, can't, or won't work hard.

In my lifetime I've met more conservatives who felt entitled by race, by position, or by wealth to take advantage of everything and everyone they could than I have ever met liberals who felt that way. Conservatives tend to hoard and resent sharing anything, while most liberals will share whatever they've got.

Thank you for standing up to serve as an example of EXACTLY the point I just made (and I think you were quoting me)!

I suggested the existence of such an animal as a conservative who is hard working? How dare I?!

And so you go off with the demonizing, name calling, stereotyping of:

* Conservatives think they are entitled!
* Conservatives take advantage!
* Conservative hoard!
* Conservatives resent sharing!

and "balanced" that with

* Liberals are sharing!

Do you not see it in yourself? You opened with the very words that my concept of a "hard working conservative" you found "annoying."

Welcome to the planet Earth-- where people disagree.

But you can disagree without hate-- and I submit it is time you started practicing that.

Originally posted by Southern Guardian
reply to post by TheWalkingFox

 

One member posted a picture of the OWSers with corporate products, well I don't recall the OWS being a movement overall against the existence of the private businesses, I mean who opposes this? Really? Even in communist China, private businesses exist. It's about your own perceptions and personal definitions in the end.

Yea, I did not understand the insinuation that the OWS was against corporations either. I support OWS and also work for a corporation and support them as well.

The distinction has to do with Mega Corporations that exists solely on the welfare of the US Government via buying out politicians so that they can have contracts passed their way, or rules and regs either repealed or created to benefit their industry.

Corporations that do this, are not practicing free market capitalism, nor being responsible and independent, when they need the government to help them exist, on the backs of tax payers such as myself.

reply to post by TheWalkingFox


The very moment the "OWS" movement adopted as their mantra, "We are the 99%" they willfully invited the attention they've got, and they are getting this attention from the actual 99%. It never should have come as any surprise at all that criticism would follow. To claim to represent the vast majority of the population, and then to insist that while many of those claiming to represent the 99% are screaming death to capitalism are just a part of the 99% and do not represent the 99% in its entirety, while whatever that entirety is remains largely silent, while this supposed minority continues to scream death to capitalism, is more than a little disingenuous. Such dis-ingenuousness invites sever criticism.

The fact of the matter is that no matter how often I read posts in this site, read articles about the "movement" laced with bias from various sides, I don't read, see, or hear anyone claiming to represent the 99% defending capitalism, or pointing out that corporatism is not capitalism and that corporatism is a big part of the problem. Instead, I see a bunch of people pointing towards corporatism and declaring it capitalism while they scream death to capitalism.

Some, will claim that they are not anti-capitalism and believe in the "free market" but it doesn't take too long for those making such claims to follow with their caveats and these caveats always became arguments for why we need government regulation. So, from my point of view, I see, hear, and read a lot of people attempting to explain the movement describe a system that is much like the same system we have any place on with "reforms" and "better". For a purist like myself, I am not hearing anything but more of the same rhetoric I have always heard, and that rhetoric when put in practice always translates into benefiting the very corporations that this "movement" claims to be outraged with, while making it even more difficult for the little guy to enter the market place and compete.

Corporatists love heavily regulated market places as this is what culls the competition and insures that market entry remain strictly pay to play, which again, is one of the things that many of the protestors keep complaining about, is that capitalism is "pay to play" and "unfair" but the regulatory schemes imposed upon business by local, state, and federal governments exist in such overwhelming force that only the corporate structure can survive such a system, and any one who observes that 2nd Law of Thermodynamics relates to much more than just the chemical reactions of heat systems understands that the closed system of economics in place today has reached its entropic state because it was a closed system. Another word for entropy is chaos, and the agendless agenda of this so called 99% is evidence of the chaos that has resulted from this closed system of economics too, too, many of us have called a free market.

Entropy is useless energy, and for the most part, the protestors are just a physical illustration of all this useless energy. Some of those critical of the "OWS" movement argue that they should be "occupying" Washington D.C., but myself, I would even see that as just another limp wristed declaration of helplessness. However, were this "Occupy" movement to occupy Delaware and demand that this States Attorney General begin the process of charter revocation for those corporations clearly engaged in corporate malfeasance, this I could get behind, but any time I make such a suggestion, it is dismissed as untenable and it becomes clear that those claiming to represent the 99% do not represent me, nor do they seem to have any real interest in bringing an end to corporatism.

The want their jobs is what they want, and the certainly don't want a life spent for mom and pop, or some other guys mom and pop, working for low pay and no hopes of advancement, and certainly little to no benefits. No, these really, really, really, angry people want corporate jobs, with paid vacations, full medical and dental health insurance paid for by their employer, bonuses, and regular pay raises. Such demands require maintaining the corporate structure, and if that means furthering the destruction of the small business man then so be it, because these really, really, really, angry people claim to be the 99% and that means the little guy must be the 1% and even if they're not rich, they believe in capitalism so they're the tools of the 1% and they should fail.

This is what I keep hearing, seeing, and reading. Mom and pop, while remaining the nations largest aggregate employers, are not want this so called 99% want. They want corporate jobs that pay well. They don't want to change the system as it is structured, they want membership in it. It doesn't seem to matter to most that it remains a closed system and will always be in some form of entropy.

reply to post by TheWalkingFox


bless ya 'fox
S&F

you've always been one of the more sensible,balanced, and open minded posters here IMO
now, if you can deal with this recent "my little pony" fixation of yours...




you might be interested in this as well as anybody else interested in starting their own occupy tribe or a resilient community:

it seems to be the "i wanna be a millionaire" types and T-party types who are bashing the hardest
weird really when the T-party could focus on government corruption and leave corporate facism to others.
really disappointed with the T-partiers really, sounds like butt-hurt or the fact that they've been inactive lately

reply to post by beezzer

No Beez no! Say it aint so!!!

you've also IMO have been one of the more sensible,balanced, and open minded posters here. snap out of it bro'!

Why Occupy? Why Tea Party? Why Protest? Simple; The US economy is broken. Incomes are less than they were 35 years ago. Everything costs more. We've had 17% unemployment (traditional measure) for 2 years and we're about to lose many more jobs.. Our collective debt is 370% of our GDP (from all sources, from consumer to gov't). Our financial system has a) enabled the transfer of our manufacturing jobs to a mercantilism (managed trade) China and b) stolen the rest of our wealth (and is in the process of gambling what's left of it away). Finally, given the ongoing instability of our economic system, we don't have long before the entire thing fails and with it our collective future (rich or poor). The question really is: why aren't you protesting? why isn't everyone protesting?

This chart (below) shows why the Tea Party is different than the Occupy movement

source:
globalguerrillas.typepad.com... dbroken-system-completely-rej.html


How to Create an Occupy Tribe: globalguerrillas.typepad.com...

There's no question that the Occupy groups have done a great job with constructing the outlines of resilient communities in the heart of many of our most dense urban areas.

People pitch in to do work. They are considerate despite the difficulty of the arrangement. Food gets served. The area gets cleaned. There is entertainment. There's innovation (equipment, tech, workarounds). There is education (lots of seminars being taught). There is open, participatory governance. All of this is great and this experience will definitely pay off over the next decade as the global economy deteriorates, panics, fails. It will make building resilient communities easier (there are lots of ways to build a resilient community, we're trying to document all of the ways how on MiiU).
However, is this experience building a tribal identity? An Occupy tribe? Something that can eventually (there's lots to do in the short to medium term) go beyond protest and build something new? One even strong enough to create new resilient economic and social networks that step into the breach as the current one fails?

direct link to MiiU ("me:you")
The Resilient Community Wiki: www.miiu.org...

Welcome to MiiU ("me:you")
The Resilient Community Wiki

A resilient community is a place that produces most of what it needs locally. It connects virtually for everything else. It's a vibrant local economy as well as a community that is immune to a) global depression, b) political instability, c) shortages, famines, etc., and d) most effects of natural disasters. In short, it's resilient.

MiiU is a collection of all the resources and places that make personal, family, and community resilience possible. Resilience isn't only about surviving global failures, it's about building a better life for you and everyone around you.

if prople were to educate themselves and organize we could completely drop out of the current system with no violence on our part

self-defense against the parasites in control of the system attempting to drag the escaped slaves back to the plantation, of course does not constitute violence

Interesting Post Third Eye.

In the past I have studied a lot about the Theosophical Society, Metaphysics, Spirituality and have read a good number of books on OBE's.

I am against the NWO order as well, and is one reason I am with the protesters that also have my views.
The Wall Street Mega Banks are part of the NWO because money means power, and without that power, they loose, whom also control our government.

Originally posted by ThirdEyeofHorus
Part of the problem with OWS, especially as a kind of modern throwback to the 60's anti war movement, is the Leftist radical anarchist connection. While many sincere souls were caught up in the revolutionary movement of the anti war spirit about Viet Nam, there were communist agitators directly involved in stirring up anti war protests. This is a sad fact, that it did not start spontaneously, but with leftist agitators who wanted to undermine the effort to combat communism.
Personally, for me, by 1977, I had found the Theosophical Society and the School of Metaphysics. My path turned sincerely spiritual and metaphysical, but in an unconventional way. An individual I encountered had worked for the UN and knew of it's anti-American One World agenda. Since then, I have been fighting communism, socialism, and the NWO. By 1980's I was reading Antony Sutton. The communists may have changed their name, but the goal is still the same.

Originally posted by relpobre000
So what if there are a few communists in the fray? So what if there are people protesting that don't understand the first thing about economics or the downfalls of socialism?
But I, for one, cannot shrug my shoulders and take the good with the bad with regards to the OWS movement. Instead I have chosen to be a vocal opponent.

Pardon the ramble.

edit on 5-11-2011 by relpobre000 because: engrish

Wanted to address this also...the other was getting too long.

So what if there are a few communists in the fray? so what if the people protesting that don't understand the first...etc

Yes...exactly...so what

So what if the tea party had some racists, or had no concept about wealth disparity through corporate monopolization...they were doing something
I am sure you were equally as critical about the entire tea party movement because there were racists and idiots in that corporate funded movement also, right?

Point is, in every crowd, you will have a sage, an idiot, and a bunch of average people...do you judge it by the few off color people in the crowd, or the overall crowd and intent? You are seeking out what exactly? a movement by millions that have only drones with no opposing viewpoint and a single talking point?...right...good luck with that one.

Oh, and the issue with "socialism" (considering the right has destroyed the word socialism to mean anything not corporate owned...fair enough, lets use it then)...the fall of socialism...
Do a search for the happiest countrys on earth...see the northern european areas? denmark, etc? wow, look, everyone is tap-freaking dancing daily. their economy is sound and growing, etc...well, soo much for that...seems evil socialism is kicking the living crap out of freedom through corporatism...

Now, of course we can revert back to the literal term of socialism, and this discludes those countrys..however, then all the right wing talking points are shown for the disinfo disgusting lies they are...so you must continue to ride that dead horse until it literally turns to dust verses admit that it was pure deception...

meh, do whatever you want really...you, I, and the next person that posts is about as relevant as a flea on the back of a 900lb gorilla

reply to post by Frira



Didn't say I hated anything, just listed a few things I find annoying in self-described conservatives, especially the hardcore bull conservative.

Annoyance doesn't equal hate.

Many of the positions I hold are conservative, many are liberal, and many defy description. I'm pretty sure OWS can be described the same way.

What I know for sure is that unless and until we move away from those old useless labels, we won't make much progress.

I find many of my more liberal friends to be more than a little naive about realities, but at least they will actually entertain new ideas and debate more or less rationally. Fewer of my conservative friends are willing to do that, preferring to retreat into the labels.

Btw, I'm not a Democrat, Republican, or any other political affiliation; I didn't vote for Obama or expect much from him.

As a OWS Supporter, I think we need to cut government spending, all around, but from the top to the bottom!
I can guarantee you that these NWO stooges want to keep government big, repub or dem, does not matter. They just want others to pay for it, so it will fall on those with even less money to spend.

Originally posted by sonnny1
reply to post by muzzleflash

 

I dont think its propaganda per say,I see what Occupy is actually SAYING that represents that picture true to its word.

Tax those rich cats into oblivion......that IS what OWS is saying right? Eat the rich? Right? Ive heard it with my own EARS.

I think Im taxed enough! Thats a clearer message,representing the people who pay taxes,without pointing the finger at anyone but the government taxing me,or you.

Do you believe people should keep what they earn? I do.



You have to look at the responses and think,is this the overall rhetoric that's being said ?

I have seen it for my own eyes,and have to say yes, unfortunately. My principles and my convictions say I shouldn't support something I see so fundamentally flawed. That is probably why those on ATS,and the true 99% of America isn't buying into this "movement".