Those Who Pray To God Worship Satan In Disguise

Originally posted by dontreally
reply to post by Frira

 

There is, at least, a third choice: That, the ruler of this world is not God, but is evil-- which is the traditional Christian claim.

Never been comfortable with that dualism.

It is not dualism in the sense of good and evil being equal.

Very early in scriptural revelation which I hold to be true, God is revealed as the "Lord God of hosts." Hosts is an army. There is a fight on-- and God intends us to fight and God intends us to share in His victory.

Why conflict is necessary-- why evil is necessary is the common question, is it not?

Do you mean this in the Gnostic sense? Where the Jewish God is a "demiurge"?

No. In many contexts that notion can be supported but in others, I believe, it produces a theological conflict in the nature and essence of God which cannot be reconciled. Which, by the way, is why the Christian doctrine of the Trinity is considered a Mystery-- it matches the revelation of God to man, and stops only hairline short of denying that revelation.

In my mind, God can only be everything. As he says clearly in Isaiah

"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things."

To separate existence into two separate mutually existing realms, to me, is inexcusable. God is everything. At different points in the existential ladder, he appears as something different, but nonetheless, He is one in his simplicity. He is nothing other then one.

Yep. People win the lottery, they credit God. People lose a child, they blame God. Such things have nothing to do with faith and everything to do with presumption. Where is evil in this? If evil is, it is hiding; choosing not to reveal itself except by activity and perhaps the rare personal encounter.

I personally take Jobs attitude. Bless God in both the good and the bad. Its somewhat of a stoic attitude. You thank God for the Good, whereas you reflect, and hope in Gods beneficence in the bad. But amidst the good and bad, you never forget that

"If I go up to the heavens, you are there; if I make my bed in the depths, you are there." Psalm 139:8

Man is not God. We do not know his ways. We do not perfectly understand our past sins, in this life, or an earlier one. We cannot know it all. We can simply be faithful, and trusting. Knowing that our labor for the one God will be for the good.

All of that is related. Job points to the Isaiah quote. And Job leaves as back at center: Why is evil necessary?

When you get down to it, people tend to agree on what is evil and what is good. A resounding "No!" when asked if a good person who never heard of God or Jesus, but who has spent a life striving on behalf of others out of love, should be condemned to Hell.

It occurs to me, in my speculation, that the existence of evil is necessary, perhaps, to drive man to seek to be more-- not out of envy of God; but out of a attraction to what is Good-- a willingness to fight evil-- to do war with evil.

P.S., My speculation at least works for how God might work with me-- that is not to say God works with others in that way. My experiences are very personal, befitting a relationship.

Meanwhile, as I type, a politician is on TV who prays to be President, and who asks others to pray that we may all have jobs-- that is pretty dang shallow-- but that shallowness is faith of this age-- it is NOT the faith of the Church. And I am very weary of answering for them as this thread has me doing.

reply to post by Frira

It is not dualism in the sense of good and evil being equal. Very early in scriptural revelation which I hold to be true, God is revealed as the "Lord God of hosts." Hosts is an army. There is a fight on-- and God intends us to fight and God intends us to share in His victory. Why conflict is necessary-- why evil is necessary is the common question, is it not?

God is not God if he has to "fight" with something not himself.

It is Dualism. It says there is one power - God - and then there is another power, something in which He struggles against.

My theology is different. There is one God, and the purpose of creation is not merely to engage in a struggle, in which case we our doomed to struggle forever, but rather, to make this world - this physical dimension - an abode for God presence - the Shekinah.

We can only do this through good deeds in speech and action. It raises the external physical reality to the world above. In psychological terms, it transmutes the negative animal energy of the natural self, into holiness. Jacob fights with an angel - a divine being (or archetype) and pravails; the very power he overcomes bestows (or is transmuted) the name Israel - Ish Ra El - man sees God. Only through the light of reason and conscience can the world be rectified.

This, in my opinion, is why we are here.

It occurs to me, in my speculation, that the existence of evil is necessary, perhaps, to drive man to seek to be more-- not out of envy of God; but out of a attraction to what is Good-- a willingness to fight evil-- to do war with evil.

I agree in part. Evil motivates action. Sufferring, forces you to realize your dependance, and so humbles mans animal aspect. This humbleness causes you to seek God, which in turn turns you into a force of good in the world.

It seems blocula has got the completely opposite impression. Like a little kid who wants to know everything, he will curse God and try to get others to feel the same way.

Ive been through hell and back, and never, ever, have i cursed God. I would like to think i could endure anything and never allow myself to become an opponent of God. I may get angry - which is understandable, and frustrated. But never would i align myself as an opponent.

Just doesnt make sense to me

reply to post by Frira

And in all of that, it is clear to me, that the One True God participates in my life, in my soul; and that in my small way, I participate with Him.

I agree that everyone appreciates and relates to God in their own way.

Ive been studying a little Hinduism lately and even they worship God, albeit, in many different forms, in a way that i wouldnt call outright "idolatry". Maybe theres a very subtle aspect, but even that is debatable.

Originally posted by dontreally
reply to post by Frira

 

It is not dualism in the sense of good and evil being equal. Very early in scriptural revelation which I hold to be true, God is revealed as the "Lord God of hosts." Hosts is an army. There is a fight on-- and God intends us to fight and God intends us to share in His victory. Why conflict is necessary-- why evil is necessary is the common question, is it not?

God is not God if he has to "fight" with something not himself.

The inverse of you statement is no less logical: God is not God, if cannot fight with something not Himself.

Your verb choice "has to fight" implies "is compelled" mine has no compulsion, only choice in accordance with the nature of God.

You realize, I think,the social aspect driving much of modern disdain for God? The hate of war and violence when all sides of any war are demonized by society, "Can't we all just get along?" is to be blind to any distinction between good and evil-- and that blindness is deeply valued by many.

Socially, that thought plays out to allowing anything to anyone without responsibility. That blindness is fragile for society-- if personally attacked, they demand rescue-- no matter the violence required by their rescuer.

It is Dualism. It says there is one power - God - and then there is another power, something in which He struggles against.

I qualified. However, your definition allows for God striving against me as fitting dualism-- quite a mismatch.

The duplicity in this life includes us, but if also fought over us. I am, you see, disclaiming an Eastern variation which claims that Good and Evil are equals and cannot exist without the other. I maintain that evil cannot exist without God, but God exists without respect to any created thing.

My theology is different. There is one God, and the purpose of creation is not merely to engage in a struggle, in which case we our doomed to struggle forever, but rather, to make this world - this physical dimension - an abode for God presence - the Shekinah.

No. there is no cause to maintain that if there is struggle, then there must always be struggle. Nature reveals to us the contrary. The work to "make this world an abode for God" is struggle, is it not?

We can only do this through good deeds in speech and action. It raises the external physical reality to the world above. In psychological terms, it transmutes the negative animal energy of the natural self, into holiness. Jacob fights with an angel - a divine being (or archetype) and pravails; the very power he overcomes bestows (or is transmuted) the name Israel - Ish Ra El - man sees God. Only through the light of reason and conscience can the world be rectified.

This, in my opinion, is why we are here.

I'm sorry, but I am unwilling to agree to the limitation to word and deed. Thought, for one example, may very well have effect.

"Animal energies," and such-- okay, as an analog-- perhaps more.

Yet, you seem to make my case for the necessity of struggle.

It occurs to me, in my speculation, that the existence of evil is necessary, perhaps, to drive man to seek to be more-- not out of envy of God; but out of a attraction to what is Good-- a willingness to fight evil-- to do war with evil.

I agree in part. Evil motivates action. Sufferring, forces you to realize your dependance, and so humbles mans animal aspect. This humbleness causes you to seek God, which in turn turns you into a force of good in the world.

I follow you. Perhaps we have difference in respect to the aveternal intent of created bodies. "Matter matters" and thus the Incarnation.

It seems blocula has got the completely opposite impression. Like a little kid who wants to know everything, he will curse God and try to get others to feel the same way.

Well, you could include me. Many a prayer would be symbolized with a clinched fist raised to Heaven! But my Daddy understands that I do not, yet, understand. He comes for me despite my tantrums-- and even understand my anger and frustration-- and I tend to turn again even if He has not already sought me out in my own perception.

Daddy? Why did you not save me from the fire?

"The fire is of this place and I am not-- neither are you to be."

Ive been through hell and back, and never, ever, have i cursed God. I would like to think i could endure anything and never allow myself to become an opponent of God. I may get angry - which is understandable, and frustrated. But never would i align myself as an opponent.

Just doesnt make sense to me

Yes. And so we carry on, whether or not others understand why, and we do so striving against it all for the unseen God who has made his presence known in our souls

reply to post by Frira

The inverse of you statement is no less logical: God is not God, if cannot fight with something not Himself.

If youre saying God is fighting with an aspect within his own self, and this is what we call "evil", you are anthropormphizing God ie; projecting your own human nature onto God.

That is not theologically tenable.

God can only be spoken of in the negative "God is not", or in referring to his 'attributes', how god expresses himself through the world. But you still can never speak of his essence, and so when discussing God, we are discussing only a part. Another part - his infinity - contradicts whatever assertion we make.

The Bible associates the spirit of YHVH Elohim with Conscience - "And Elohim was moving in the garden". Garden being the unconscious. This conscience is therefore thought of as Gods direction and guidance within the human soul. It shows us whats real and what is not.

My theology, which is essentially Jewish "theology" (or metaphysics), concludes that conscience is the purpose of creation. To live within its peremeters is to rectify, and raise physical creation. This sublimates the physical with the light of the name יהוה , and reality becomes unified.

So...the purpose of creation is to rectify the nature of this world; its lowliness and animality. Of course, within this framework the person self is given a life of difficulties and trials to overcome, and in doing so, becomes a different person. The process of self realization and working towards rectification of external reality are two sides to the same coin. The one is the microcosm, the other the macrocosm of a process of realization.

I qualified. However, your definition allows for God striving against me as fitting dualism-- quite a mismatch.

Granted, God for man will always be a paradox.

Its only because of ignorance that we fail to percieve the nature of Gods relationship with man. God is everything, and we are part and parcel with God. Inner reality, outer reality, and even our sense of free will, is undoubtedly determined by God.

However, none of this matters to us, since its irrelevant whether or not God may know. We dont. Hence, a paradox. From His perspective, everything is known, but from ours, nothing is known. We have total free will to choose whatever we want.

But its something entirely different to say God is a power, who, outside of us, is also opposed by another power, which is not God. So theres no unification within reality to you? Whats this vacuum in which God and his opponent fight? This vacuum must be the true God, since he reconciles opposites. It could possibly be the indifference of the void)

Its either youre going Zoroastrian in saying there are two individual powers - good and evil - who themselves are reconciled beneath a higher power.

Gnosticism shrinks this idea into saying the one true God is the ineffable God, gracious to man who seeks him (and annuling the "law" of deeds), whereas the evil god is the God of the Jews. This 'demiurge' is responsible for the way of the world. but he isnt God. Hes beneath God.

The work to "make this world an abode for God" is struggle, is it not?

It is. I was going to edit my post to say struggle is apart of the process. But there is hope for the end, where there will be less struggle, and more serenity. This being the future age we all anticipate.

Yet, you seem to make my case for the necessity of struggle.

I cant remember which prophetic book, but the prophet says something to the effect of "God will destroy the gods of the nations". Symbolically, this means god will destroy those aspects of ourselves which we worship. Egoism, lust, jealousy ,etc. These "gods" are archetypal energies underlying the collective human conscious. They exist as a latent energy, or possibility, that compels itself to expression.

These forces, as you know, were worshipped by ancient and modern pagans. Aphrodite is desire; which could manifest towards anything. Love, Wealthy, Beauty. Aries represented destruction etc.

I think there will come a time when we are no longer struggling with this.

Yes. And so we carry on, whether or not others understand why, and we do so striving against it all for the unseen God who has made his presence known in our souls

Yup. I agree with that statement. I feel the same way

Originally posted by dontreally
reply to post by Frira

 

The inverse of you statement is no less logical: God is not God, if cannot fight with something not Himself.

If youre saying God is fighting with an aspect within his own self, and this is what we call "evil", you are anthropormphizing God ie; projecting your own human nature onto God.

That is not theologically tenable.

I am using English and it means what it means!

In reply to my observation that God is revealed as "Lord God of hosts/an army"...
You wrote, "God cannot be God if He has to fight something not Himself.

I responded, "God is not God if He cannot fight something not Himself."


Then you write, "If youre saying God is fighting with an aspect within his own self."

"Something not himself" cannot be construed to mean "an aspect within his own self." So why on earth are you asking if I meant the opposite of what I wrote? NO! I meant what I wrote-- both times.

Dang! This is like pulling teeth!

I qualified. However, your definition allows for God striving against me as fitting dualism-- quite a mismatch.

Its either youre going Zoroastrian in saying there are two individual powers - good and evil - who themselves are reconciled beneath a higher power.

I stated the exact opposite. It is not like we have not brushed on this subject a few dozen times before, DontR; and I have not taken a Zoroastrian position yet-- and never will.

I will repeat, but use different words. I believe in God and I believe in evil. I do not believe evil is God's equal. From my view, God has no equal. Other spiritual entities which may exist are not God-- and those know they are not God.

The work to "make this world an abode for God" is struggle, is it not?

It is. I was going to edit my post to say struggle is apart of the process. But there is hope for the end, where there will be less struggle, and more serenity. This being the future age we all anticipate.

Then why not a war for a struggle? What if the struggle to do as you suggest is our purpose requires war? What if it has always required war?

Now, in my last post, I admitted the individual perspective which creates my bias-- but it is how I have interpreted what has been shown me. Signs and wonders, "Like a polished I have hid you away." are words I "get" (Can I use "grok" please?!). So, God as warrior Who will dispatch evil is part of the relation offered me, personally.

And I wait.

Yet, you seem to make my case for the necessity of struggle.

I cant remember which prophetic book, but the prophet says something to the effect of "God will destroy the gods of the nations". Symbolically, this means god will destroy those aspects of ourselves which we worship. Egoism, lust, jealousy ,etc. These "gods" are archetypal energies underlying the collective human conscious. They exist as a latent energy, or possibility, that compels itself to expression.

These forces, as you know, were worshipped by ancient and modern pagans. Aphrodite is desire; which could manifest towards anything. Love, Wealthy, Beauty. Aries represented destruction etc.

I think there will come a time when we are no longer struggling with this.

Symbolically, perhaps; but I think metaphysically is more likely. I'm thinking Daniel's hearing of Gabriel's explanation for being delayed. Those (e.g., "prince of the kingdom of Persia") which fought Gabriel were the god's of the nations from the perspective of the people. Spiritual powers, indeed, but not gods.

Yes. And so we carry on, whether or not others understand why, and we do so striving against it all for the unseen God who has made his presence known in our souls

Yup. I agree with that statement. I feel the same way

edit on 15-9-2011 by dontreally because: (no reason given)

edit on 15-9-2011 by dontreally because: (no reason given)

I gathered as much.

"questions about god from the perspective of an outside observer"

question-1...is there a god?...
well acording to the holy books,that are quoted from and read aloud across the world every single day in churches,mosques and temples,there is a god.

question-2...does this god have anything to do with this world?...
well yes,the holy books all say that he is the creator of the heavens and the earth and that people are made in his image.so not only did he create the heavens and the earth but he created humanity as well.

question-3...is there pain and suffering in this world that god made?...
yes there is,everywhere every day,there are countless people suffering through and dying all over the world because of,arson,floods,earthquakes,disease,war,murder,tornadoes,abortion,landslides,drug addiction,suicide,greed,rape,blizzards,hail,wild animal attacks,tsunamis,extortion,mental retardation,radioactive leaks,homelessness and more.

question-4...does god intervene on behalf of humanity to lessses their pain and anguish that they are forced to face?...
no one on earth has ever seen,heard,touched,tasted or smelled god and the injustice and death across the world never subsides or stops. the fear,hate and misery goes on and on and on and on.

question-5...is god good or evil?...
all the evidence points to the sorry conclusion that the god who made the heavens and the earth and humanity as well is unfortunately evil.to believe that god is good is to deny reality.

question-6...knowing that god is evil and that there is zero proof of him ever helping anyone,why is he still being worshiped?...
because god is evil masquerading behind a thin veneer of blind faith and false hopes.he has seduced and hypnotized humanity to the point that even after children are murdered over and over and disaster after disaster keeps happening again and again,he is still given thanks,prayed to and called upon.

question-7...just what then is this evil gods hidden agenda?...
to trick as many people that he can into surrendering their souls to him so they can be dragged down with him into the eternal abyss of darkness.

reply to post by Frira

"Something not himself" cannot be construed to mean "an aspect within his own self." So why on earth are you asking if I meant the opposite of what I wrote? NO! I meant what I wrote-- both times. Dang! This is like pulling teeth!

Theres no need to go that into explanation. I misunderstood. I thought you were implying the idea i suggested, because i have read it elsewhere.

I will repeat, but use different words. I believe in God and I believe in evil. I do not believe evil is God's equal. From my view, God has no equal. Other spiritual entities which may exist are not God-- and those know they are not God.

And still, that is an inadequate argument..

What is God to you??? The God youre describing is not God, but the archetype of good, which is why i said the natural conclusion to such thinking is Zoroastrian dualism, or Gnosticism, which comes to the same conclusion. God expresses himself in dualisms; good, evil which occurs within the great cosmic being of Ahura Mazda, or the "father" of Valentinian Gnosticism.

All polytheism is based on such dualism, since it approaches reality from the human perspective, which is dualistic. Im not saying you believe God is evil, but still, you give room for something other then God and then fail to provide an explanation for what or where this relationship between God and evil takes place. If evils existence derives from God, then isnt God responsible for its existence, and thus present in the evil he apparently vies against?

Then why not a war for a struggle? What if the struggle to do as you suggest is our purpose requires war? What if it has always required war?

I dont think it is reasonable to assume that we will always be living under these present circumstances. I think in a different age, things might be fundamentally diffferent.

I sort of see an analogy between how people live today, verses how they lived in pre-civilization times. Before Mesopotomia, how was man living? Having read into this subject, fundamentally different. He had no knowledge of things we now take for granted. The wheel - a basic invention, hadnt yet been thought up. Imagine. Does this not imply something about their consciousness?

These inventions of later times were called 'gifts from the gods' because the gods - unconscious forces - brought down to consciousness knowledge of abstract realities. The deduction of "a circle can be used to roll" hadnt yet occurred. The wheel, the concept of commerce, civilization, writing etc, hadnt come forth. For good reason the Bible considers the world to be 5771 years old, since archeology has shown the first civilization, Sumer, to have begun around that time period; 3800 BCE.

Who says we cant go further? Some people believe realms beyond this world exist. Imagine a future in which men can communicate telepathically, manifest what he thinks into physical reality, teleportation etc. If our future involved that, which it may, then one could reason that the world we now know would be nothing like that world. What would we need cars for? Or roads? Thinking from now, i can hardly find anything to think of, because we arent living in that time. But i believe there is reason to believe that it will be different from today.

Originally posted by blocula
"questions about god from the perspective of an outside observer"

question-1...is there a god?...
well acording to the holy books,that are quoted from and read aloud across the world every single day in churches,mosques and temples,there is a god.

question-2...does this god have anything to do with this world?...
well yes,the holy books all say that he is the creator of the heavens and the earth and that people are made in his image.so not only did he create the heavens and the earth but he created humanity as well.

question-3...is there pain and suffering in this world that god made?...
yes there is,everywhere every day, there are countless people suffering through and dying because of,arson,floods,earthquakes,disease,war,murder,drug addiction,suicide,homelessness,genocide ect,ect,ect.

question-4...does god intervene on behalf of humanity to lessses their pain and anguish that they are forced to face?...
no one on earth has ever seen,heard,touched,tasted or smelled god and the injustice and death across the world never subsides or stops. the fear,hate and misery goes on and on and on and on...

question-5...is god good or evil?...
all the evidence points to the sorry conclusion that the god who made the heavens and the earth and humanity as well is unfortunately evil.

question-6...knowing that god is evil and that there is zero proof of him ever helping anyone,why is he still being worshiped?...
because god is evil masquerading behind a thin veneer of blind faith and false hopes.he has seduced humanity to the point that even after children are murdered over and over and disaster after disaster keeps happening again and again,he is still prayed to and called upon.

question-7...just what then is this evil gods hidden agenda?...
to trick as many people that he can into surrendering their souls to him so they can be dragged down with him into the eternal abyss of darkness...

edit on 15-9-2011 by blocula because: (no reason given)

question-8...should i then leave this earth and find another world to make my home?...
yes i would highly reccomend that you find a world with people who have not been hijacked and seduced by an evil entity that disguises itself as a kind and loving god.for this demonic monster has taken what was once a beautiful paradise and twisted it into a living hell...

Originally posted by dontreally
reply to post by Frira

 

I believe in God and I believe in evil. I do not believe evil is God's equal. From my view, God has no equal. Other spiritual entities which may exist are not God-- and those know they are not God.

And still, that is an inadequate argument..

What is God to you??? The God youre describing is not God, but the archetype of good, which is why i said the natural conclusion to such thinking is Zoroastrian dualism, or Gnosticism, which comes to the same conclusion. God expresses himself in dualisms; good, evil which occurs within the great cosmic being of Ahura Mazda, or the "father" of Valentinian Gnosticism.

All polytheism is based on such dualism, since it approaches reality from the human perspective, which is dualistic. Im not saying you believe God is evil, but still, you give room for something other then God and then fail to provide an explanation for what or where this relationship between God and evil takes place. If evils existence derives from God, then isnt God responsible for its existence, and thus present in the evil he apparently vies against?

Now we're talking!

I whole-heartedly agree the argument is inadequate. I think that is a critical component, inadequately addressed-- Why is there evil? That was in the first post on this thread from which you and I began.

You went into this very well in what you wrote after (not shown for brevity).

Way back in catechism class, that was the extra credit question on my written final exam. "Why did God create the serpent?" The essence of my answer at age 13 was, God did not intend man to remain as created, but intended man to strive, and so the deceiver was a means to a known (by God) end-- out of the Garden we had to go.

Years later, I would read a much better statement to make the point: "God became man so that man might become god." --Athanasius (but Cyril of Jerusalem, also). And so, transcendence is not merely the goal of mankind-- but the intended end of each person.

Most religions agree on that, I think; and I took what you wrote later, to be an expression of the same.


-------

Who is God to me?

"Archetype of Good?" No. That somehow implies some dilution or mere symbol.

The Nicene Creed (with filioque), Chalcedon Definition and Quicumque vult (that one speaks your language! Lots of "is not!") make a good start of my answer. "Lord God of Hosts," "God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob," the Great I AM, and many others-- all defining the same "Most High God." For that matter, "Daddy" works.

"Neither confounding the Persons; nor dividing the Essence" and so One God (to the extent my brain can make those corners) shows up in odd ways in my spiritual life-- gives me the sense of understanding I think would otherwise be unavailable. It works-- for me and for many.

why is there murder?...because god created murder. why are there earthquakes?...because god created earthquakes. why is there death?...because god created death. why are there people?...because god created people. why is there an earth?...because god created earth. why is there evil?...because god created evil. why does god allow the people that he created to feel pain and suffer?...because god is evil.

reply to post by Frira

I whole-heartedly agree the argument is inadequate

And so this is your defence? The inadequacy of the argument is based on the inadequacy of the question "why is their evil"..?

When you get the time, read this postLink

Some of your answers to me appear strained, and unnecessarily so. This problem can be solved by acknwoledging what the prophet Isaiah says In Isaiah 45

"I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the LORD, do all these things."

Is the Christian God you worship the same God of the Hebrew Bible?

Of course, there are many commonalities in worship, and relationship between man and God in Judaism and Christianity, but this argument you are bring forth simply put, does not correlate with basic texts in the Hebrew Bible.

God, says unambiguously, He is responsible for the evil in the world.

At a more kabbalistic level, where one analyzs the language of the verse.

God is said to "form" - Yetzer - the light. A form comes from something else. Some raw substance which is later 'formed'. Whereas with darkness, God CREATES, meaning he brings it from a state of non-existence, to existence; creation ex nihilo. Darkness can only exist because God gives it existence. Without God, it doesnt exist. Likewise, God 'brings' prosperity, from his ownself, whereas he creates destruction, from nothing.

reply to post by blocula



Questions about God from an outside observer...


Yes. I mean I really do understand that view. And to such, it is a whole different language.

You see "happy" Christians, just-a-lettin' their lights shine! Praisin' the Lord, and weildin' the WORD! And I see a Christian who is desperate to be deceiving themselves so that others will think them "saved in Glory!" and they want you to have it, too (even if they are terrified by the notion they, themselves cannot).

No.

And then you see folks like "dontreally" and "frira" (me) enwrapped in discussions which must sound like "How many Angels can dance on the head of a pin?" They are not-- what they really are about are the questions left from unreconciled speculations-- very common speculations and very common reconciliation issues face by some of us.

dontreally's expression of having been to Hell and back... you don't smile, and shout "Glory!" all the time. I've been to Hell, but not back, but I have not been there alone.

I cannot offer you proof. If I could, I would.

I am a terrible evangelist. Two persons in my fifty-one years have claimed I had something to do with their believing.in God. The explanation of what I did and said which caused them to believe left me shrugging.

I can point to many people in my life-- not one of which probably even suspects it, that have had a profound impact on my spiritual life-- but my believing? No. No man.

I have no idea why, but my life is marked by what are called "Religious Experiences" and has been marked that way many times since my earliest memories. I am not, repeat, NOT, special. I am, however, different, and I do not know why I am different-- except it is not about me.

If it were not for my being convinced of the truth of it, I would not wish my faith on my worst enemy. It is hard; it is painful; and if you feel no attraction to believing it, I hope you can escape it-- except that it is true.

There have been great wonders, and much purpose and meaning, abounding in adventure (in hindsight) because of my faith, but no one can promise that it will be so for others. Frankly, the "warm fuzzies" are too few and far between.

Here is the most important thing I can think to say, based upon what you have written:

If you have not encountered God in any of your best perceptions, and despite any attempt to find God-- then you have done your work. Let it be. If God worried that your soul was in jeopardy, He would act, and you would know it-- or at least have reason to suspect it. That is what happened to me-- but before I even seriously even wondered about God. I'm a fluke-- maybe a freak.

I did not find God by looking for him-- He found me when I wasn't looking. I have no idea why-- it certainly wasn't my sterling personality! Anyone who claims their faith is of their doing is deceived, or lying to you. And it is not an intellectual ascent to a set of Creeds. It does not mean those are not important, but the faith is not like pledging allegiance to a flag. What it is like... is not easy to explain-- I haven't the language; but the language does exist.

At any rate, that I have a profound, life-changing, and mercilessly tested faith, it has not resulted (nor did I ever expect it to result in) God showering me with wealth, power, influence, happiness, or any protection from evil (eh... well, maybe on that one-- hard to tell). But I can almost see his eyes studying mine as I pray, "Why go I so heavily while the enemy oppresses me?"

Originally posted by dontreally
reply to post by Frira

 

I whole-heartedly agree the argument is inadequate

And so this is your defence? The inadequacy of the argument is based on the inadequacy of the question "why is their evil"..?

Sorry, not even a little bit defensive... but I will be glad to oblige you by being offensive if you like.

Since when did you take up trolling? I liked you the other way.

That evil is, is an undercurrent of the OP. Thus the question and thus my hint at an answer. That you missed that is not my fault; so hop down off my back.

When you get the time, read this postLink

Yes. Your psychological treatise on how to interpret Scripture like an early 20th Century German psychoanalyst. I have read it (or one like it) before. And am amazed at its direct relationship to the price of tea in China. Anyway, back to the thread...

Some of your answers to me appear strained, and unnecessarily so. This problem can be solved by acknwoledging what the prophet Isaiah says In Isaiah 45

"I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the LORD, do all these things."

Is the Christian God you worship the same God of the Hebrew Bible?

Of course, there are many commonalities in worship, and relationship between man and God in Judaism and Christianity, but this argument you are bring forth simply put, does not correlate with basic texts in the Hebrew Bible.

First, It is not mine. And second, it correlates nicely; but you, having your own model, are not open to it-- and I just ceased being open to yours. Seems fair.

God, says unambiguously, He is responsible for the evil in the world.

At a more kabbalistic level, where one analyzs the language of the verse.

God is said to "form" - Yetzer - the light. A form comes from something else. Some raw substance which is later 'formed'. Whereas with darkness, God CREATES, meaning he brings it from a state of non-existence, to existence; creation ex nihilo. Darkness can only exist because God gives it existence. Without God, it doesnt exist. Likewise, God 'brings' prosperity, from his ownself, whereas he creates destruction, from nothing.

edit on 15-9-2011 by dontreally because: (no reason given)

Tohu wa bohu, I get. It is not merely creation, it is also order. I like, "chaotic vacuousness." You're bright, ponder that and spare me explaining it to you.

Your perspective is neither original (except, maybe, how you arrive at it) nor insightful. Moreover, it is wrong... and unnecessarily so. Your very Isaiah quote in light of the one you mentioned before (also was from Isaiah-- God saying that his people had destroyed the idols of other nations) makes my point, and confuses your own.

The destruction of enemies is God's doing. To those enemies-- at least of God's purpose and perhaps not knowingly so, it is evil being done.

You refer to Job in prior post, which again, supports the traditional and confuses yours. God and Satan working it out-- not one entity of one essence, but two-- one Creator, and the other created-- that other serving God's purpose even with free will, more-than-human power and authority and yet NOT God.

Originally posted by blocula
why is there murder?...because god created murder. why are there earthquakes?...because god created earthquakes. why is there death?...because god created death. why are there people?...because god created people. why is there an earth?...because god created earth. why is there evil?...because god created evil. why does god allow the people that he created to feel pain and suffer?...because god is evil.

Utter, utter rubbish!

Why is there food?
So we can eat it.

Why are there clouds?
So we can have rain sometimes.

Why do we have thumbs?
So we can use the toggle on a PS controller.

Why do chickens lay eggs?
So we can make omelettes.

Utter, utter rubbish

Akushla

toggle controls,chickens and omlets is hardly a worthy argument or comparison,when you realize that the holy books that billions swear by and live by and preach by all say that "god made the heavens and the earth and all things therein"..."so it was god who made,earthquakes,floods,arson,rape, pain,suffering,death,disease,evil,murder,retardation,suicide",ect,ect, and to say that god did not make all these things is wrong,because the holy books say he did,they explicitly state that he made everything.so then it is true that we are purposefully tortured,punished and killed in a world made by god,who cares enough to do nothing about it.because he /she/it is evil and to say he/she/it is not evil is to lie to yourself. because to face this truth is to horrible. it means that we are already damned at birth and forced too suffer and die in hell...

Originally posted by blocula
toggle controls,chickens and omlets is hardly a worthy argument or comparison,when you realize that the holy books that billions swear by and live by and preach by all say that "god made the heavens and the earth and all things therein"..."so it was god who made,earthquakes,floods,arson,rape, pain,suffering,death,disease,evil,murder,retardation,suicide",ect,ect, and to say that god did not make all these things is wrong,because the holy books say he did,they explicitly state that he made everything.so then it is true that we are purposefully tortured,punished and killed in a world made by god,who cares enough to do nothing about it.because he /she/it is evil and to say he/she/it is not evil is to lie to yourself. because to face this truth is to horrible. it means that we are already damned at birth and forced too suffer and die in hell...

edit on 16-9-2011 by blocula because: (no reason given)

My, but you are an angry unit!

You don't really have a chip on your shoulders...
You've got the whole bag of potatoes!

You are deliberatly (or perhaps not!), attributing the effect of the rules, on the playing out, of the game...according to those rules.

Yes God created every 'thing'.
These 'things' had to have physical laws governing them, given that the locum in which this all takes place is a more physical locum.

Once those laws were instituted, they were left to unfold...(like, set and forget).
The laws governing US, had to be as expansive, giving and open-ended, as possible, so as to allow the little flame to be able to burn in stillness and in a storm.
The gift we have been given...
...is...
FREE WILL!

Once this law, and others like it were instituted, they were left to unfold (as per expansive, giving, open-ended).
Any incursion to alter, change, reroute, steer...the outcome of these laws, was/is/and always will be, at the discretion of the rule maker.

Your position of outright ANGST at the possibility of having any responsibility, as per the precept of FREE WILL, is a sure sign that you are operating under the illusion that you are not in control.

Indeed the flavour of your rants are testament to this lack of control. So, in your reality, what you think, is actually true, FOR YOU...and, it shows!

You present the classic, 2+2=8 arguments, which, are argued backwards, beginning at the outcome.

That is why they are utter rubbish.

The phrases I mentioned, were mentioned, to show the ridiculousness of what you are saying...but you already know this!

I wish you a less angry life.

Akushla

trapped in a hellish world of genocide,child murder and organized war and i'm suppose to just ignore it all and "act happy" like most blind sheep do?...well not me!

Originally posted by blocula
trapped in a hellish world of genocide,child murder and organized war and i'm suppose to just ignore it all and "act happy" like most blind sheep do?...well not me!

I don't know if this was brought up already but there is a New Testament verse about an evil god.

Ephesians 2: 1 & 2
And although you were dead in your transgressions and sins, in which you formerly lived according to this world’s present path, according to the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the ruler of the spirit that is now energizing the sons of disobedience,

The more usual translation is:
"the prince of the power of the air".

Originally posted by blocula
trapped in a hellish world of genocide,child murder and organized war and i'm suppose to just ignore it all and "act happy" like most blind sheep do?...well not me!

'trapped'...being the operative word!

Trapped, bound, restricted, controlled...
I guess my assessment was right, then?!

You are given the gift of FREE WILL to 'ignore', or not 'ignore'...

It is highly commendable that you have chosen to not 'ignore'.

NOW...
Get off your computer and put your money where your mouth is...you seem to be spending a whole lot of valuable time complaining (bag of potatoes on shoulder), online.

Indeed, with your fundamentalist views, you could achieve much.

Good luck in your quest.

Akushla