Turkey navy to escort aid ships to Palestinians in Gaza

Originally posted by dontreally
reply to post by Ryanssuperman

Eschatological writings seem to have a relevance to the times were living in. Jewish esoteric writings predict a certain situation that just happens to exist today. Islamic writings also predict a period at the end of days where the Muslims will destroy and finish off the heretic Jews

“So that Jews will hide behind trees and the tree will say “Muslim! The servant of Allah! Come, look there is a Jew behind me, he hid here, behind me, come and punish him”. Only the tree Gharqad will not say, for it is the tree of the Jews.”...

Not that I want to butt in to your conversation or anything but I have to point out that, if I remember correctly, that that hadith is foretelling a time after Mehdi's arrival. It is foretold that a lot of people, both Christian and Jewish will follow him since he will be coming along side Jesus. So if I remember correctly, there will also be a minority of people who will wage war on the Mehdi along side the Anti-Christ. It is foretold that they will be mostly Jews. Hence the hadith mentions what will happen at that point. But it is also foretold that the day of judgement will not come until Arabs and Jews make peace with each other. Which is something that is expected to happen after the wars are over.

Originally posted by Gorman91
reply to post by Ryanssuperman

 

Not really. Also it's probably not T&C to call me a moron. But I will not call you one.

If I look at the history, I see a history of violence, and no matter what the time, only under the ruler ship of a foreign super power has the region known peace.

The only logical conclusion is that something about the environment is detrimental to human reason. And such a place, with everyone being guilty on both sides of not only supporting the death of one side or the other, but also voting for war hawks, the only solution is the complete and utter destruction of that area of Earth. A nice glassed temple mount

If you think that the corruption that runs the politics of this world is not as evil and non-human as what is happening in the Middle East, you are a sheep, and you need to be waken up.

If we "deleted" all of the ME, it wouldn't change anything in this world. Politicians will still be corrupt, people will still have hidden agendas and be out for themselves and their organizations, and our world will still be as depressing and terrible as it is with the middle east around.

"Carpet bombing" the region would solve nothing. It's just another conflict on earth. Unfortunately we are programmed, as humans, to behave like this. Whether in front of the world, or behind the scenes. Your solution is ignorant, and moronic. Which is why I said "Moron". Didn't want to go into detail, but apparently with your response, you've got a brain in your head, which I didn't anticipate with your OP.

reply to post by Ryanssuperman


I take it you know nothing of the history.

Israel didnt "create" its enemies. Its enemies already existed pre-1948. Haj Amin Al hussein - the mufti of Jerusalem, was in Berlin, with Hitler, during WW2, planning to bring hitlers final solution to the Middle East..

This has nothing whatsoever to do with Israels necessary preemptive strikes. And has everything to do with a Jewish, non Arab sovereign nation in the midst of Dar Al Islam.

I don't know why all the back and forth over this issue? We already know Israel's policy on the matter, and that is if a foreign military vessel assists a civilian vessel in breaking the blockade in Gaza, Israel will respond militarily.

Turkey Expels Israeli Envoy in Dispute Over Raid

In a statement on Friday, Israel’s prime minister’s office said that “as any other state, Israel has the right to defend its civilians and soldiers.”

In the event, Turkey decides to break the blockade with its naval vessels Israel will respond. Just recently, The Palmer Report conducted by the UN was leaked, and it largely vindicated Israel of any wrongdoing in the Mavi Marmara incident.

Report of the Secretary-General’s Panel of Inquiry on the 31 May 2010 Flotilla Incident

The fundamental principle of the freedom of navigation on the high seas is subject to only certain limited exceptions under international law. Israel faces a real threat to its security from militant groups in Gaza. The naval blockade was imposed as a legitimate security measure in order to prevent weapons from entering Gaza by sea and its implementation complied with the requirements of international law.

The report is what it is. Now, the justifications of the panel's final assessment can be debated by the affected parties, but it was conducted by an international panel. Therefore, I am fairly certain basic objectivity was the true intent for such an arrangement. Quite understandably, Turkey is up in arms over the report. To be be fair, Israel was criticized in the report for how it conducted the naval operation as well, but a general vindication was not part of it. That is what Turkey wanted, and it did not get.

So the recent sacking of Israel ambassador to Turkey and the threats of naval intervention by the Turkish Navy in future flotilla voyages are no doubtingly a response to this report.

Turkey Expels Israel's Ambassador, Cuts Military Ties Over UN Report

Turkey has expelled Israel's ambassador to Ankara. Turkish Foreign Minister Ahmet Davutoglu announced Ankara's expulsion of the Israeli ambassador, along with a suspension of all military agreements with Israel, in a short statement to the media.

. . . President Abdullah Gul strongly condemned the report.

Such a report does not exist for Turkey,he said. He went on to issue a warning, saying Turkey, as the most powerful country in the region, will not only protect its own rights but also those of all the people in need. He said the international community should be aware of this.

Mr. Gul's warning came after Foreign Minister Davutoglu said Turkey would take measures to ensure free maritime movement in the eastern Mediterranean . . .

Just more stirring of the pot in the most tumultuous regions of the world. Some would call it a game of chicken. Who will blink first, and what will be the consequences? It is safe to say both nation's relations are in a deep freeze, and a war footing is taking shape. My hope is that both nations can work through this matter diplomatically, and use its military might as a thwart against President, Bashir Assad's, tyrannical aggression in Syria rather than against each other.

Israel won't sit idly by Turkish aggression, and I am fairly certain Turkey would respond the same. A war between the two would have dire consequences for the region, and even the world. Oddly enough, this little entanglement leaves the US the odd one out, because it supports both nations. Who will come in to mediated before the rounds start to fly? Tensions are definitely mounting, and this has become a serious affair.

reply to post by nusnus


The Muslims believe, copying Jewish midrashic literature (which predates the Hadiths) that the Jews are destined to convert to Islam.

Strangely enough, Jews believe this will be their final situation aswell. A very ancient Midrash from the 1st century predicts that the sons of Ishmael - who later became Muslims - will have a temple on the Temple Mount - the dome of Rock, built 6 centuries after this midrashic composition.

Heres the exact situation presaged by the Rabbis of that era.

The descendents of Ishmael will go up at that time [End of Days] with the nations of the world against Jerusalem... (Zohar 1:119a)

Israel will say to the king of the Arabs, "Take silver and gold and leave the Temple." The king of the Arabs will say, "You have nothing to do with this Temple. However, if you want, choose a sacrifice as you did in the past, and we will also offer a sacrifice, and with the one whose sacrifice is accepted, we will all become one people." The Jewish people will offer theirs, but it will not be accepted because the Satan will lay charges against them before The Holy One, Blessed is He. The descendents of Kedar will offer theirs, and it will be accepted.... At that time, the Arabs will say to Israel, "Come and believe in our faith," but Israel will answer, "We will kill or be killed, but we will not deny our belief!" At that time, swords will be drawn, bows will be strung and arrows will be sent, and many will fall... (Sefer Eliyahu, Pirkei Mashiach, p. 236)

Heres another prediction made by the Zohar

[During the Resurrection of the Dead], many camps will arise in Land of the Galilee, because that is where Mashiach is going to be revealed, since it is part of Joseph's territory. It will be the first place to be destroyed. It will begin there ahead of all other places, and then spread to the nations... (Vayakhel 220a)

reply to post by IsraeliGuy

Turkey own nukes? Haha. How very uninformative and stupid. That's like saying Syria owns a Russian naval base.

Russia is building naval base in Syria

Russian magazine Kommersant reported Friday that the Russian army is laying the groundwork for building the Syrian port of Tartus, in the north of the country. Russia maintained a base in the port since the days of the Soviet Union, the report said, adding that Moscow could be planning to turn the port into a naval base where ships withdrawn from Sevastopol in Ukraine can anchor.

Sorry, couldn't resist.

Turkey is in the right here. IDF cowards won't have the parts to fight with a real army. Israeli support is shrinking in the global theater. Such a small army won't stand a chance against Turkey, unless they use nukes. I have a feeling Israel will get down on their knees for Turkey but will still try to appear victorious with useless double speak.

reply to post by Corruption Exposed


so you must have really deep hate for Israel.

Not only do you suspect them to humiliate themselves for the sake of peace, but you ridicule their pride in wanting to spin it??

Every nation tries to preserve its pride. Apparently Jews with pride is too disgusting for some people to handle.

So what ships would Turkey be protecting?

Only Aid ships from Turkey going to Gazza, or will they go out of their way to protect other ships which are trying to break this so called legal or illegal blockade.

On the question if this all kicks off, do members really think the US will side with Israel, and the Other European countries would side with Turkey?

For some reason I do not think all NATO European Countries would. Germany and the UK wouldnt.

reply to post by dontreally


Wow your post is really ridled with garbage.

So. Why does an Arab noble from Mecca get to become king of a land hes not naturally from?

You act as if I support this. I don't. Jordan was created to serve British colonial interests from the outset. Why else would Britain have trained the notorious Arab Legion?

Made up, superficial concepts that Arab and Muslim identity completely overrides.

To ingnore nationalist divisions in the Arab world is just ignorant. Yes the conception of the Arab states and its borders are supreficial and un-natural, none-the-less they are existent. Libya-Chad, Iraq-Kuwait are two prime examples where governments harnessed nationalism.

I think we need to respect and tolerate real, and historically verifiable ethnic-religious distinctions. Ie; Jews, Kurds, Copts, Berbers, and other groups indigenous to the wider middle east.

That is exactly what I believe. A believe in an independent Kurdistan and Palestine not for the sake of the Kurds, Palestinians and Jews, but because regional instability has international repercussions and regional stability in necassary to facilitate and peaceful and cooperative world.

Better then force together two groups - one larger, the other smaller, who hate each other, as in the case with the Kurds in Iraq, Turkey, Syria, and Iran.

Sweet since you believe in this, you must surrender your belief in Eretz Israel. Where a minority group (the Jews) would run a Jewish dictatorship to keep a majority group (the Palestinians, Arabs and Muslims) in line. Either have a small democratic Jewish state or a large, violent, unstable, undemocratic, authoritarian dictatorship run by the Jews. It'll be funny to see the contradiction you retain towards Israel.

Where do you get this crap? What are these amazingly important ethnic distinctions between Arabs? They speak the same language! How deep is the anomisty between England, America, Canada, Australia, Ireland, South Africa? The anglo-speaking nations apparently stick together. As do the Arabs ie; the Arab League.

Wow I have never seen a more ignorant statement. The Arab world is not as simple as the Western world. You paint that Arab world with complexities when it suits you and you make it seem simple when it suits you.

Take Libya, the revolution is divided amonst tribal groups (it is still a tribal society). The Western tribes (Gaddafi and affiliated tribes) the Eastern tribes and the Southern. The revolution is centred in the East and opposed largely by afilliated Western tribes. The South sides with the East but it will certainly fracture once the regime is entirely destroyed. The South is deeply Islamic, while the East and West are largely modernized.

These deep tribal distinctions are prevelent throughout the whole Muslim world. Not only that but the Sunni's and Shiite Arabs are divided not only between eachoter but amongst themselves. The Arab world may speak the same language but they are in no way unififed. Case in hand, the Arab League finds it difficult to agree on anything unless it concerns Israel.

reply to post by dontreally


I'm sick and tired of you pulling out the religion card in every thread. It really is pathetic. How do you expect me to take you seriously? I am not very fond of the Israeli government, but don't twist my words and say I have hatred for Israel.

Go back to the kids table, the adults are eating.

reply to post by Ryanssuperman


Well you're assuming a few things there. Namely, I wouldn't exactly be against a dictator coming to power and dissolving the corporate hegemony in America. You assume because I speak like this from my world to that place all the way over there, that these words are not too intended to those standing behind my back.

I'm not an anarchist. But the older I get, the more I'd be willing to jump on bored a Hitler-like government where the scapegoat, rather than being poor innocent people, is the guilty among the elite for making the world suck.

My words stand true, however, for the region of the Holy Land. It is not just another conflict. It is a major conflict which echos to over 2 billion people across the globe. And in that, it is my honest opinion that the glassing, carpet bombing, and indeed, flat our annihilation of the Holy Land would not only get both sides to shut up, but maybe even to work together to rebuild it.

This idea has been toyed with in stories, such as the watchmen. And although I personally may not agree with such methods, I will not deny the efficiency of the method in terms of getting stuff done.

reply to post by Corruption Exposed

Go back to the kids table, the adults are eating.

that was corny

I'm sick and tired of you pulling out the religion card in every thread.

I didnt pull out any religion card. I pulled out an ethnic card. And unfortunately, its things you say which attracts its coming out.

Saying: "I have a feeling Israel will get down on their knees for Turkey but will still try to appear victorious with useless double speak. " Get down on their knees? And yet you think i took that out of context.

I know your overall tone, "corruption exposed" - the most ironic username i have come by in awhile - and what you think about Israel.

So when is this aid convoy of ships?

Need to know when to bring the tomato plants in.

reply to post by Vitchilo


Nothing like upping the tension and changing the manner that these things occur in. When the vessels are not escorted they are protected. When those vessels are under armed military escort, they are consider hostile shipping and can be sunk without wanring.

/Hats of to Turkey for being stupid.

Originally posted by spoor

Originally posted by backinblack
Lets see how Israel go facing a real military

Israel has shown that they have constantly faced real threats and beaten them, Turkey will fail trying to break a legal blockade.

Collective punishment is not only illegal but also a crime against Humanity.

Originally posted by confreak

Originally posted by spoor

Originally posted by backinblack
Lets see how Israel go facing a real military

Israel has shown that they have constantly faced real threats and beaten them, Turkey will fail trying to break a legal blockade.

Collective punishment is not only illegal but also a crime against Humanity.

Ive seeen this riduculous argument a lot lately, while they ignore the fact that Gaza is in fact getting supplies they need. Hamas likes to divert those supplies in addition to controlling trade in the area to make money. They have an open border with Egypt. Why not send supplies through there?

Also, as much as people like to spin the issue, its not a total blockade. Supplies are allowed to be deleivered, and under international law since Israel is the occupying power they can set the port and prescribe methods for the cargo to be inspected and offloaded.

I find it funny people scream about violation of UN / International / Humanitarin law while they ignore the fact the floatill and now turkey are alos violating those same statutes.

awsome...

reply to post by SpeachM1litant

To ingnore nationalist divisions in the Arab world is just ignorant. Yes the conception of the Arab states and its borders are supreficial and un-natural, none-the-less they are existent. Libya-Chad, Iraq-Kuwait are two prime examples where governments harnessed nationalism.

Im saying youre blowing these divisions out of proportion.

The Arab world is united, completely, and with a religious feeling aswell, in opposition towards Israel. You get a Sh'ite Persian guy and an Egyptian Sunni guy together, and they will be both be equally opposed to Israel. Israel is the "moral equivalent of war" which couled galvanize and unify the Muslim world together. Another important element which binds Arabs together is their religion. Something much deeper than any makeshift arbitrary boundaries.

Just understand that. It is not hard to understand. The Umma - the collective Muslim community - is emphasized with such intensity in order to separate Muslims from non- Muslims, truth from falsehood etc.

Sweet since you believe in this, you must surrender your belief in Eretz Israel. Where a minority group (the Jews) would run a Jewish dictatorship to keep a majority group (the Palestinians, Arabs and Muslims) in line. Either have a small democratic Jewish state or a large, violent, unstable, undemocratic, authoritarian dictatorship run by the Jews. It'll be funny to see the contradiction you retain towards Israel.

Arabs were never meant to have a slice of Israel. The "Westbank" ie; judea and samaria, was supposed to be Jewish land, when the British Mandate was originally struck up.

Eventually, the Arabs became aware and they opposed it.

Look at the size of the Wider Middle East. Arabs have a complete hegemony. The Arab league - 22 members, stretches from Mauritania in NorthWestern Africa to Bahrain in the Red Sea.



You know what would actually be fair and just? A division of land in proportion to representation.

Lets look at the population of Arabs. There are 280,000 million Arabs in the Wider Middle East. There are 4 million sephardic Jews in the Middleeast, living either in Israel, France or America.

Meaning, the Arabs should get 70 times more land than these Sephardic Jews, because 4 goes into 280 70 times.

The total land area of the Arab League is 13,333,296 km.

The total land area of Israel is..............................................20,770 km

20,770 goes into 13,333,296.......642 times. Meaning, the Arabs have 572 times more land then they deserve.

If you want a moderate estimate. Lets say there are 2 million Sephardic Jews currently living in Israel. 140. That means the Arabs still have 502 times more land than the Sephardim.

This is simple ethnic representation. And now you want to reduce those menial lands that already exist, further.

Nothing you can say can refute this simple yet powerful fact. Sephardic Jews deserve more land then theyve been given. But Arab Hegemony, of course, could never countenance that.

Take Libya, the revolution is divided amonst tribal groups (it is still a tribal society). The Western tribes (Gaddafi and affiliated tribes) the Eastern tribes and the Southern. The revolution is centred in the East and opposed largely by afilliated Western tribes. The South sides with the East but it will certainly fracture once the regime is entirely destroyed.

This doesnt actually explain anything. Youre merely saying there are disputes.

The South is deeply Islamic, while the East and West are largely modernized.

So the "tribal" issue really isnt the focal point, is it? Its Religion. Its Islam. Islam is the uniting of different tribes into one people.

These deep tribal distinctions are prevelent throughout the whole Muslim world. Not only that but the Sunni's and Shiite Arabs are divided not only between eachoter but amongst themselves. The Arab world may speak the same language but they are in no way unififed. Case in hand, the Arab League finds it difficult to agree on anything unless it concerns Israel.

Israel hatred really is a galvanizing power for the not just Arabs but the whole Muslim world. These sort of issues unify, and people can look past the doctrinal religious differences.

reply to post by dontreally


You completely ignored my reply, giving evidence of Israel bombing 5 neighbor countries, without declaring war. Just because they wanted to.

Instead, you spouted Religious non-sense...which this is nothing about. I can see you're a very closed minded person, so our conversation is over. I whole heartedly feel sorry for you. I don't say this out of anger or frustration, I honestly look down and feel sorry for you.

Maybe once you open your eyes to other possibilities, we can chat some more.

If Israel want to violate international law, then no-one can have a go at Turkey for doing what they want for their Islamic brothers and sisters who are under occupation of megalomaniacs who call themself the chosen race.

To those who say Israel will do this and Israel will do that, Israel has nukes etc,etc,,,,how big do you think Israel is? what are they going to do when their nukes are taken out? grow 3rd arms and kill 1.6 billion muslims with them? if Israel get too cocky they will be taken down, not only by the over 50 muslim countries in the world but by their allies including China and Russia. The world is getting sick of hearing psychobabble coming out of people calling themself the chosen race, including the lies coming out of the jewish run America.

"what is hard is NOT going to war and DEAL with the actual problems"

They have the problems because they werent going to war?