Turkey navy to escort aid ships to Palestinians in Gaza

reply to post by IsraeliGuy


love the sarcasm

reply to post by dontreally


Firstly I would like to eliminate this myth that Jordan is a Palestinian state. It is not. Israel would not be a Jewish state if the government wasn't Jewish (even if 70% of Israel was Jewish). The Jordanian Monarchy is not Palestinian, so even if the Palestinians make up the majority, it is not a Palestinian state.

Secondly you can scrap the original British "intention". Luckily they were intelligent and realistic enough to realise that it would cause even more problems. For example, Israel would have to be a tollitarian dictatorship supressing the Arabs or it wouldn't be a Jewish state. Because the Arabs would make up the majority and then in a democracy they would make up the majority of government.

During 1948 alone - 5000+ Palestinians killed.
War of Attrition - 2500 Palestinians killed.
Yom Kippur War - 1000 Palestinians killed.
Lebanese Civil War - 75 000 Palestinians killed by Israel + Lebanese people.
2000-2005 - 5 000 Palestinians killed.
Gaza War - 1 500 Palestinians killed.
The First Intifida - 3 000 Palestinians killed.
There had been incidents of small massacres not well documented, if added all together, they will add up to thousands.
Hebron Massacre 1994 - 60 Palestinians dead in Mosque.
Church of Nativity - 20 Christians killed by Israeli fire, including 2 Priests and 3 Deacons.
Al-Aqsa massacre 2000 - 35 Palestinians killed
Jenin 2002 - 53 Palestinians killed.
Together that is around 100,000. For the sake of conservatism lets take away 50% of those deaths and that still make up 50,000.
Now don't forget I left Gaza out and a number of massacares out too.

Of course I know how you will justify these deaths, the Palestinians attacked Israel (which in many of these cases is true, but in many of them it is untrue). Frankly the same could be said for the Kurds (I don't say it, I want them to have a sovereign Kurdistan for the sake of regional stability). They aren't exactly peacefull revolutionaries. So I am simply pre-emptively excluding this argument.

That is basically equal to the amount Turkey has killed. Now the difference between Turkey and Israel is this: Turkey is a sovereign state. Sovereignty is a major factor (if not the biggest) in international relations. So if turkey over a period of time kills 50,000 people in its own internal conflict, it frankly won't worry the international community too much (I'm not trying to justify the deaths in Turkey, I'm simply highlighting the realities of the international community). If Israel kills Palestinians within the West Bank or Gaza, it will worry the international community, because even though Israel is a sovereign state, the West Bank and Gaza is not recognized as their sovereign territory. So this belief that the UN hates Jews is simply bogus.

reply to post by IsraeliGuy


Frankly I agree with IsraeliGuy. Israel will and could hold its own without imported weaponry (minus of course air-craft). It has been reliant on imported weaponry in the past. For example they relied on Czech small arms imports in the latter part of the Israeli war of independence. They have always been largely reliant on imported air-craft, but you can't blame them. America, the UK and Russia have a virtual monopoly on any decent aircraft produced and they frankly wouldn't want to help Israel produce their own, for rational reasons.

However, Israel's economy is heavily dependent on technology, which has resulted in great inovation in the military, defence and intelligence sectors. In fact much of the world (especially the thrid-world) purchases Israeli small arms. Not to mention America purchases alot of Israeli technology, not only becuase of the pressure from internal lobby groups but frankly because it is extremely advanced and high class stuff.

However I disagree with your sentiment around the Tavor rifle. It frankly is a converted M16, and it isn't as good as the M16 and its variations. I wouldn't want to use it.

Originally posted by NewsWorthy

Do your homework...

Gosh, when someone challenges me I have to say something lol

I have actually...Leo Szilard, is the man who envisioned the atomic bomb when he realized he could break down atoms. He owns the patent to it. Everyone else, including Oppenheimer were simply facilitators. Ofcourse he immediately realized that it could be turned into a weapon.
What kind of a man would want to create such an immense and destroying weapon? A man who has suffered through the Holocaust and wants to ensure that it never happens again by threatening the world with it.
This was what went thru his mind when he agreed to have the Americans build it.
Americans would like to think that they have control over how Israel behaves, but honestly, from where I'm sitting, it sure looks like history just says Israelis have been using Americans for their own benefits.

Leó Szilárd (Hungarian: Szilárd Leó, February 11, 1898 – May 30, 1964 German: Spitz, Leo until age 2) was an Austro-Hungarian physicist who conceived the nuclear chain reaction in 1933, patented the idea of a nuclear reactor with Enrico Fermi, and in late 1939 wrote the letter for Albert Einstein's signature that resulted in the Manhattan Project that built the atomic bomb.

so turky is in nato......and Israel is our best buddy in the ME so if they were to go to war what would happen nato declares war on Israel?nato dosent back turkey? us leaves nato in protest if nato sides with turkey this could get quite complicated on the geopolitical spectrium and alot of alliances may change.

and while im asking hypoteticals how would turkey even get to Israel i dont think they can walk there so i think they would need egypt in on this one so they could use the canal so if it comes to a conflict id have to say it will hinge on israli air power not naval or ground troops for protection

reply to post by IsraeliGuy

You say the Israeli army is full of US technology? Well, for starters the Israeli army has factories such as Refael and Elbit systems which are worldly known. The US supplied airplanes have been reversed engineered with Israeli software and improvements, see F16I and F15I. Ground troops have started using the Israeli made Tavor rifle which is about to completely replace the various versions of M16. Merkava tank is one of the top quality tank in the world, if not the best tank along with the American Abrams tank. Various of missiles in IDF's arsenal are 100% Israeli made, including pinpoint systems. UAV's are Israeli made and sold to various countries around the globe. ...And these are just the stuff that is constantly in use. If I was to list the entire weaponry and weapon systems developed by Israel it would be pointless plus would take a while.

Thank you for pointing out that israel is incapable designing their own weapons so they have to steal American ideas. Weapon systems developed by Israel? Does this mean they are ripping off other countries as well? How do you know if the Merkava is any good in combat or not? It's never been in full combat unless you call destroying unarmed civilian villages combat.

Click here for more information.

reply to post by SpeachM1litant

Firstly I would like to eliminate this myth that Jordan is a Palestinian state. It is not. Israel would not be a Jewish state if the government wasn't Jewish (even if 70% of Israel was Jewish). The Jordanian Monarchy is not Palestinian, so even if the Palestinians make up the majority, it is not a Palestinian state.

Jordan was created on land that was originally apart of the British Mandate for Palestine. That means if a "Palestinian" people were to be settled anywhere, it should be there.

It is not a myth, its a simply fact.

Jordans monarchy, first of all, was not even indigenous to the region. So why is this an issue? Or is there really no difference between Arabs living in the Hejaz and Arabs living in Jordan, Palestine, Lebanon or Syria, as Arabs mostly maintain???

If Arab Hegemony is the goal (which it clearly appears to be) it shouldnt matter where "palestinians are relocated". Everywhere they would be culturually recieved. Everywhere they would fit in like a glove.

But no. The logical reason for the concept of Palestine is to displace those Zionist Hebrews from laying claim to Israel. Hence, the creation of the palestinian identity post 1948; to challenge Israels existential claims to the land.

Im a firm believer that such lies will never uphold.

reply to post by IsraeliGuy


This isn't a forum for personal attacks. If you want to act un-civil go to another website. If you want to debate civily with use of evidence, then by all means stay.

Originally posted by Vitchilo
Sweet.... Turkey finally manning up to the bullies.

Report: Turkey navy to escort aid ships to Palestinians in Gaza

Turkish officials tell Hurriyet Daily News that Turkish navy will strengthen presence in eastern Mediterranean Sea to stop Israeli 'bullying'.

"The eastern Mediterranean will no longer be a place where Israeli naval forces can freely exercise their bullying practices against civilian vessels," a Turkish official was quoted as saying.

As part of the plan, the Turkish navy will increase its patrols in the eastern Mediterranean and pursue "a more aggressive strategy".

According to the report, Turkish naval vessels will accompany civilian ships carrying aid to Palestinians in the Gaza Strip.

Additionally, Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan instructed his foreign ministry to organize a trip for him to the Gaza Strip in the near future.

Hell yeah Erdogan! Israel's government bullying needs to stop. Turkey's navy will make sure of that.

And if Israel wants to go at it with Turkey, they better ready their nukes because that's the only way they gonna win.

Israel needs to man up, SUPPORT a palestinian state, make economic deals with them... make peace with everyone and stop acting like they are above everyone else. Going to war isn't what a real leader does. Going to war is ``easy``... what is hard is NOT going to war and DEAL with the actual problems.

edit on 3-9-2011 by Vitchilo because: (no reason given)

Ha ha ha Israel.............. That's very Interesting. Turkey is a full NATO member and as such the United States is obligated to come to it's aid, not that it will need any, but none the less, the bully Israel cant go squealing to mama this time. If Israel get into it with Turkey they will have to deal with all of NATO.

Originally posted by SpeachM1litant
reply to post by IsraeliGuy

 

This isn't a forum for personal attacks. If you want to act un-civil go to another website. If you want to debate civily with use of evidence, then by all means stay.

Oh come on. Do you see me complain every time a person discards my posts only because of my username? "Yeah LOL!!1 really reliable coming from an ISRAELI GUY lollololol!1!".

Besides, his post isn't really civil nor does he bring any evidence to anything he says.

I'll be more than glad to answer anything in a more serious manner, problem is that these type of posts (constructive, historically approved, founded) are rare here.

reply to post by dontreally

Jordans monarchy, first of all, was not even indigenous to the region. So why is this an issue?

This is the biggest issue. This is exactly why Jordan is not a Palestinian state. Israel would not be a Jewish state if its government was an Arab monarchy.

I see you are changing your line now. You act as if every Arab is an Arab and not an Iraqi-Arab or a Palestinian-Arab. I don't know what delusional world you live in, but frankly it does not work this way. Arab hegemony is idealistic garbage. They are not only divided, ethnically, religously and tribally but now they are divided amonst nation-state lines.

You can scrap the original British mandate. We know that didn't go through and for logical reasons. It would have been impossible and catastrophic.

reply to post by rigel4

They have to rename NATO to 'American and European Military Organization' ie; AEMO. Makes more sense.

Turkey is nowhere near the North Atlantic.

reply to post by IsraeliGuy


They are rare here, however his post was civil and within the ATS T&C. He didn't use any personal attacks and certianly was not being offensive where as you were (you did call him an idiot). You response was unjustified and I am certain that a mod would remove it if they saw it.

I can't do anything about people discarding your posts because of your username. It is stupid, but as you say historically analytical posts on this forum are hard to come by and the general quality of posts is rather low. If people discard your posts on these grounds then you shouldn't even pay any attention to them, they frankly aren;t worth it.

Oh hot damb!

Me thinks the IDF Commandos will need to pack in a few more tissues judging from what we saw in their last military encounter...

Originally posted by dontreally
reply to post by rigel4

 

They have to rename NATO to 'American and European Military Organization' ie; AEMO. Makes more sense.

Turkey is nowhere near the North Atlantic.

I've read the majority of your posts on here and I have one question for you, "dontreally":

Do you believe that Israel has the right to bomb with aircraft, artillery shell, and send military into neighboring countries, whenever they want, because it feels threatened by terrorism (or whatever reasoning they use)?

Example: Do you think it would be justifiable for the United States to bomb a building in Canada or Mexico, because they believe it is a threat to them?

I await your response.

reply to post by SpeachM1litant

This is the biggest issue. This is exactly why Jordan is not a Palestinian state. Israel would not be a Jewish state if its government was an Arab monarchy.

Ok. But Israel is percieved as an interloper, coming in and displacing Arabs.

What about Jordan? Who were those indigenous Arabs living in the Jordan region? Or were they the same nomads who lived in Israel? - who could care less about the land before the zionists arrived in the late 19th century.

So. Why does an Arab noble from Mecca get to become king of a land hes not naturally from?

I see you are changing your line now. You act as if every Arab is an Arab and not an Iraqi-Arab or a Palestinian-Arab

Made up, superficial concepts that Arab and Muslim identity completely overrides.

I don't know what delusional world you live in, but frankly it does not work this way.

How much civil war has to plague "Iraq" and "Lebanon" before you come to your senses, and understand that these lands were the creation of European colonialism, and so in many ways are satelites for the west - and hence opposed by religious Muslims.

I think we need to respect and tolerate real, and historically verifiable ethnic-religious distinctions. Ie; Jews, Kurds, Copts, Berbers, and other groups indigenous to the wider middle east.

Better then force together two groups - one larger, the other smaller, who hate each other, as in the case with the Kurds in Iraq, Turkey, Syria, and Iran.

They are not only divided, ethnically, religously and tribally

Where do you get this crap? What are these amazingly important ethnic distinctions between Arabs? They speak the same language! How deep is the anomisty between England, America, Canada, Australia, Ireland, South Africa? The anglo-speaking nations apparently stick together. As do the Arabs ie; the Arab League.

You can scrap the original British mandate. We know that didn't go through and for logical reasons. It would have been impossible and catastrophic.

Because Arabs-Muslims are a Political minded people.

Originally posted by dontreally
reply to post by rigel4

 

They have to rename NATO to 'American and European Military Organization' ie; AEMO. Makes more sense.

Turkey is nowhere near the North Atlantic.

Turkey is a very important ally to NATO and in the most strategic place for a buffer between the Russia's and the
Middle East and Europe. Don't think for a minute that NATO would let Turkey down.... They won't no matter what the Americans might say regarding their relationship with Israel, the rest of the NATO members would not allow it under any circumstances.

Originally posted by dontreally
reply to post by rigel4

 

They have to rename NATO to 'American and European Military Organization' ie; AEMO. Makes more sense.

Turkey is nowhere near the North Atlantic.

I see where you are coming from .

Impossible dream imho .


EU and USA are in direct competition , commercially speaking.

reply to post by rigel4


Unless of course Jews control the world.