Pray or You're Fired.

Originally posted by jheated5
reply to post by sonofliberty1776

 

I don't see the difference in the two in this circumstance basically they SHOULD do it to save the church from any legal actions, of course it's not required but it looks a lot better on the church's end if they did.... If these things weren't specified the moment of employment than he does have a very strong leg to stand on imho......

edit on 21-8-2011 by jheated5 because: (no reason given)

Consider that it is a church. They may never have had to face an issue like this before. A Christian who refuses to pray? Really? I do not say that the church has handled this well or professionally at all. The church and the pastor should have taken him aside. If he still refused to pray, they should have asked themselves..."What would Jesus do?". Jesus would not fire him. Jesus would not coerce him. Jesus would have us live our lives and allow his light to show through our lives. They have not won a soul for Jesus in this manner.

reply to post by TrueAmerican


Never, ever give in to BS authority figures, be they religious, government or anyone else wanting to inflict their ideology on you. You are a free man and allowed to express yourself within the confines of the law.

Well without knowing the full details of the whole situation we can only speculate, the way he presented his case made it seem like religious harassment... If that's not the case and they just pulled him aside and just explained what was expected is a different story, there is a real fine line when dealing with these types of things.....

reply to post by davidgrouchy


There are three demands, two of which are reasonable, so no need to post those two. But here, verbatim, is the one I have a major problem with:

To summarize our phone conversation here are three duties I need you to do each week:

1. No problem
2. No problem.

*3. Be present on stage with the worship team for prayer before rehearsals. This is part of my vision for the unity and oneness of purpose of our team.

PROBLEM.

Now if this was a staff meeting, I would have no problem with it. But it is a lengthy prayer session in which they take prayer needs, and everyone involved goes around talking about their latest problems and then all of that is incorporated into the prayer- which every member also prays aloud during this time.

Over time it has made me feel uncomfortable, as I rarely say a word. I'm there for work, and often with very little sleep. I take care of my prayer stuff at my house. Again, NONE of this was EVER an issue, mentioned or brought up years ago or since from my point of hire. But all of a sudden now it is.

reply to post by TrueAmerican
Given the above situation, I reiterate my stance. They can legally fire you.

Originally posted by whaaa
reply to post by TrueAmerican

 

Never, ever give in to BS authority figures, be they religious, government or anyone else wanting to inflict their ideology on you. You are a free man and allowed to express yourself within the confines of the law.

I agree 100%. He should freely express himself and get a job he can believe in.

reply to post by TrueAmerican


This sounds like the motivation behind jerking you around - trying to force you out for more of the "blessed" manna of the Gods - MONEY.

Hey - I have any idea - if you are financially compelled to try and keep the job - say Jewish prayers, or Pagan prayers, or - do I dare say it - prayers from Islam! Okay, maybe not Islam - you'll probably be worse of as a labeled terrorist. But you could really be creative with the Pagan thing - perhaps quietly reciting nature poems?

Thank God - hmmm, Thank Goodness we live in a country where our freedom of religion is guaranteed by the constitution!!!

The lawyer suggestion of a previous reply isn't a bad one - but I think you should decide first if you want to fight to keep your job, or fight for the principle. The next step for you could be very different depending on which priority your particular circumstances requires at this point in your life.

Best of luck - I hope things work out to your benefit.

Send each one of them a pdf copy of the Gospel of St Thomas and tell them you've found the Lord.

Originally posted by sonofliberty1776

Originally posted by whaaa
reply to post by TrueAmerican

 

Never, ever give in to BS authority figures, be they religious, government or anyone else wanting to inflict their ideology on you. You are a free man and allowed to express yourself within the confines of the law.

I agree 100%. He should freely express himself and get a job he can believe in.

He can also express himself by taking some of those religious control freaks down; With THREATS or actual application of legal action.

Contact the county and state labor relations board and the State attorney general and they will determine the right course of action. Discrimination in the work place will not be tolerated under any circumstances.

What the hell, bring in the Feds....

www.flra.gov...

and if I read the National Labor Relations Act correctly; ream those asshats a new one.

wsd.dli.mt.gov...

Originally posted by Honor93
please correct me if i'm wrong but no where was it stated that he is being singled out.

...gosh, another one that didnt read the op...

Originally posted by TrueAmerican

There are three demands, two of which are reasonable, so no need to post those two. But here, verbatim, is the one I have a major problem with:

To summarize our phone conversation here are three duties I need you to do each week:

1. No problem
2. No problem.

*3. Be present on stage with the worship team for prayer before rehearsals. This is part of my vision for the unity and oneness of purpose of our team.

PROBLEM.

Now if this was a staff meeting, I would have no problem with it. But it is a lengthy prayer session in which they take prayer needs, and everyone involved goes around talking about their latest problems and then all of that is incorporated into the prayer- which every member also prays aloud during this time.

Over time it has made me feel uncomfortable, as I rarely say a word. I'm there for work, and often with very little sleep. I take care of my prayer stuff at my house. Again, NONE of this was EVER an issue, mentioned or brought up years ago or since from my point of hire. But all of a sudden now it is.

I understand that,
but I'm looking for the entire document.

things like

is it adressed to you, or to all employees (what word is used)
is it signed
do they have the authority to issue such instructions to paid employees

If this is a follow up to a phone call,
to a "baptized" member of the church
then it is a completely different matter.
One that speaks to personal relationships.
Is your not praying making anyone else uncomfortable, or just him?

Is the threat of termination documented or implied.


David Grouchy

Originally posted by Wyn Hawks

Originally posted by Honor93
please correct me if i'm wrong but no where was it stated that he is being singled out.

...gosh, another one that didnt read the op...

I don't think you can "fire" volunteers. Maybe he should just be a volunteer then?

But you gotta pray with the worship team or be fired. Never mind that they are not demanding this of anyone else but me. The volunteer guys that run the video side of things? Nope, they show up much later- no demands on them. The musicians in the band who regularly come in late and miss the prayer session altogether? Nope- no demands on them either. I guess they won't rock the boat with the volunteers. But they will with the paid staff- oh yeah.

Heres what you do OP:

When you are instructed to pray, just appear like the other deluded fairy-tale believing folks around you and mumble a bunch of cuss words at them while they are talking to themselves believing that they are telepathically communicating with a guy who lives up in the clouds. Get a notebook and write down WHO instructed you to pray, and WHAT day and time precisely that you were made to do so. Jot down WHO and WHEN someone THREATENED your job position if you didnt participate in this cult activity. Keep doing this until weeks or a couple months go by (up to you) and then GET A LAWYER and claim SEVERE MENTAL and PHYSICAL STRESS due to having to do this.

Then SUE, SUE, SUE, and LAUGH all the way to the bank while these idiot cult members learn an EXPENSIVE LESSON!!

reply to post by TrueAmerican

The praying part is no big deal. It's not about that at all. It's the principle of it. That a church full of supposed Christians is going to force that on one of their very own employees. I am just stunned. I don't know what to do, other than just quit- which I don't really want to do.

My first thought was that your title read, 'Pray and You're Fired' because it works in that direction these days, too.

I really can connect on this issue because while I consider myself a Christian w/out formal portfolio, I would not want anyone to try and force me to partake of their prayers.

Our relationship with the almighty must be a personal one. Salvation is not found at the tip of a sword or under threat of job loss. It has to be something we embrace from the heart... and that's exactly what I would say in this case.

Best of luck to you... I'll keep checking in on this thread to see how it all plays out.

Originally posted by davidgrouchy

things like
is it adressed to you, or to all employees (what word is used)- it was addressed to admin asst.

Subject: email for (my name)
(obviously so he could print it out and leave it on the desk for me).

is it signed- in email, yes, "Thanks, (worship director's first name)

do they have the authority to issue such instructions to paid employees- yes

If this is a follow up to a phone call,
to a "baptized" member of the church
then it is a completely different matter.- I am not a baptized member of the church.

One that speaks to personal relationships. - not about any personal relationship. I think one of band may have complained that I wasn't attending the prayer- not sure.

Is your not praying making anyone else uncomfortable, or just him? see above, but again, not sure.

Is the threat of termination documented or implied- it was stated specifically on the phone: "Will have to let you go."

Look. We can all proclaim we have rights all day long. I think this thread has established, on pretty good authority, that your legal options are limited UNLESS you can prove discrimination based on them treating you differently than another employee under similar circumstances. If you take the stance that this thread does NOT establish that, then you need to seek your own counsel and dismiss ATS as a source of information. We can only take this so far, and I think through our varied responses we have done that. Unless a lawyer comes on here and says, "I am a civil rights lawyer. I know what I'm talking about, and this is how it works." then we've done what we can for you.

The bottom line here is this:

Do you want to fight this? Yes or No.
If answer = Yes, then, how much energy do you want to put in on this?
--If answer = A lot! then goforit
--if answer - Not much, then conform and seek alternatives
If answer = No, then conform or quit.
End

Originally posted by TrueAmerican
Right now I am fuming over this, and need to get this off my chest.

Unjust Christians, and they will never see it in themselves. I'm tempted to pray that their Church be gutted by fire.

I really do believe and I really do pray, and that seems like a just prayer. I am so sorry you are encountering this.

The "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you" rule seems to slide past so many unnoticed unless they are the ones feeling the wrong end of injustice.

A church which persecutes a non-believer and the non-believer who knows that is not justice-- which please God? The person(s) doing this to you will be surprised, I think, by the truthful answer.

reply to post by TrueAmerican


If you arnt a Christian ..... why are you working there? No one is forcing you to work there.

If you work at a Church ... you should expect prayer to be mandatory. Why would hold against it? If you arnt a Christian ... then maybe you shouldnt be there.

Just like if you're a police officer ... a weapon is mandatory ... at a church prayer is the churches weapon .. it is mandatory lol.

reply to post by schuyler


I wouldn't seek any remedy based on discrimination. Not my angle at all. And there aren't any more employees at my particular church to compare me to really, so that's out. What I have a problem with is being forced to attend specifically a prayer meeting, and by subsequent peer pressure and public scrutiny, forced to participate when my income is on the line. The director has publicly called out my name in front of all many times and said "come pray with us." Sometimes I oblige and sometimes I don't. And he's pulling a power trip. That's what this is. Plain and simple. I was not hired under those conditions, and I don't feel it's reasonable after all the years, perfect attendance, and good faith I have shown these people to require me all of a sudden to do so.

WHY is it that I am all of a sudden part of the worship team when the video guys, sitting right next to me, are NOT? WHY? No demands on them, or the very musicians themselves. It feels like they are wanting me to quit. That's what this feels like. And I probably will. Not before I am sure though about me having some kind of legal recourse.

Originally posted by TrueAmerican
Originally posted by davidgrouchy

If this is a follow up to a phone call,
to a "baptized" member of the church
then it is a completely different matter.- [color=gold] I am not a baptized member of the church.

That's a bit of surprising information.

I suspect he wants to give your job to a relative/favorite.


David Grouchy