Pray or You're Fired.

Originally posted by schuyler

Originally posted by sonofliberty1776

Originally posted by Wyn Hawks
reply to post by sonofliberty1776

 

...he doesnt have a problem with praying... he has a problem with being forced to pray...

Doesn't matter. The church has a right to hire only like minded believers for any and all positions from pastor to janitor. He should man up and follow his conscience. He should leave so that they can hire someone who believes as he does.

I stand corrected. Sonofliberty is right and he's backed up his case with a citation of the law. Looks like you are screwed, buddy. Pray or quit.

Thanks. Really he should quit. If he has any integrity at all, he should quit and go somewhere else.

reply to post by TrueAmerican


Make voodoo dolls of those doing you wrong and stick pins in their eyes, abdomen and throat.

Don't discount the power of ritual.

or...

Claim the guy that is giving you the grief is making unwanted sexual advances toward you and threaten to go to the state labor relations board.

If they threaten to fire you for BS reasons, turn the tables on them and claim sexual harassment.

That should do it....

Originally posted by whaaa
reply to post by TrueAmerican


Claim the guy that is giving you the grief is making unwanted sexual advances toward you and threaten to go to the state labor relations board.

That should do it....

So much for integrity. You and I disagree quite often, but at least you had my respect for standing for your beliefs. Had....

Originally posted by sonofliberty1776

Originally posted by davidgrouchy

Originally posted by TrueAmerican
Right now I am fuming over this, and need to get this off my chest.

Ha!

Come on man, get a grip.

Tell him "Put it in writting."
If he's not willing to put the request in writting then he's not serious.

David Grouchy

Putting it in writing just shows that they are actually following title VII. He has no case. Stand for your beliefs and quit. Go work somewhere else.

Actually it will cut through all the politics and emotional intimidation.

Additionally it will constitute a renegotiation of contract and as such
additional compensation is in order.

But I suspect he is victim of someone just "throwing their weight around"
and they wont want any hard evidence of their moves. Particularly
if it winds up costing more money.

It's a polite way of saying STFU you don't intimidate me.


David Grouchy

No that's B$, go take another look at your application it has to be stated on that said application that you are required to take part in *rituals*... Furthermore it has to be stated in a handbook that you sign for also, if these things aren't documented the second you were employed then what they are doing is ILLEGAL!

reply to post by davidgrouchy

You must not have read my previous posts. The OP has no leg upon which to stand. The church can fire him for failing to conform to their belief system. The supreme court has even ruled on the issue. He has no case. He should quit and go elsewhere.

...son of liberty is wrong, imo, and his "ruling quotes" are not applicable in this case - because - this is a case of one employee being singled out / treated differently than other employees - and - thats not any kind of religious observance that'll hold up under scrutiny...

Originally posted by jheated5
No that's B$, go take another look at your application it has to be stated on that said application that you are required to take part in *rituals*... Furthermore it has to be stated in a handbook that you sign for also, if these things aren't documented the second you were employed then what they are doing is ILLEGAL!

It does not have to be on the application or in a handbook. It SHOULD be in writing, which the OP has already indicated to be the case.

Originally posted by sonofliberty1776
You must not have read my previous posts. The OP has no leg upon which to stand. The church can fire him for failing to conform to their belief system. The supreme court has even ruled on the issue. He has no case. He should quit and go elsewhere.

Oh, no. I get what your saying.

I'm just saying that I don't think the people he is dealing with
are as well, or deeply, informed as you.

"Put it in writting"

Is reverse intimidation.

Do unto others, eh?


David Grouchy

reply to post by sonofliberty1776


The link your provided said otherwise...........

Originally posted by sonofliberty1776
You must not have read my previous posts. The OP has no leg upon which to stand. The church can fire him for failing to conform to their belief system. The supreme court has even ruled on the issue. He has no case. He should quit and go elsewhere.

Also,
even the Supreme court
would want evidence that he failed to comply.

Unless they are willing to put the request in writting,
they are blowing hot air.


David Grouchy

Originally posted by Wyn Hawks
...son of liberty is wrong, imo, and his "ruling quotes" are not applicable in this case - because - this is a case of one employee being singled out / treated differently than other employees - and - thats not any kind of religious observance that'll hold up under scrutiny...

How is he being singled out? Doesn't everybody else pray? They may not need to be "forced" into praying, or informed of the consequences of not doing so. Perhaps they are believers, and he is not? I do not claim to know if he is a believer or not. It is irrelevant in this case. From the information presented, the OP can be fired/discriminated against by the church.

Originally posted by sonofliberty1776
Really he should quit. If he has any integrity at all, he should quit and go somewhere else.

Nah, I have no integrity at all. All those mornings over the years I was sick and wanted to call in, I didn't cause I knew they didn't have anyone to replace me, I showed up anyway and did the job. The times they didn't pay me for being snowed out while I had already gotten up and was on my way in my four wheel drive- I never bitched. And all the times I've saved their asses when no volunteers were available cause I play drums as well? And the time some huge lunatic tried to shut us down by threatening our equipment I stood up and just about got into a fight with him- until he finally left.

Nah, I have no integrity whatsoever.

**** off.

Originally posted by jheated5
reply to post by sonofliberty1776

 

The link your provided said otherwise...........

edit on 21-8-2011 by jheated5 because: (no reason given)

The organization should make this clear to all applicants and not accept applications from those who do not fit the religious requirements. The intention to hire only Christians and any specific hiring policies should be stated on employment applications and employee handbooks. Along these same lines, ministries that expect employees to adhere to certain codes of ethics should detail these expectations clearly.

You do understand the difference between SHOULD and IS REQUIRED, don't you?

Originally posted by jheated5
No that's B$, go take another look at your application it has to be stated on that said application that you are required to take part in *rituals*... Furthermore it has to be stated in a handbook that you sign for also, if these things aren't documented the second you were employed then what they are doing is ILLEGAL!

I'm sorry, but it doesn't look like he has a case. If it's explicit in the law, which it is, in the Civil Rights Act, no less, it does not have to be repeated in a staff handbook. It certainly does not have to be on an application. It doesn't appear that his employment is governed by a collective bargaining agreement, so he doesn't have that to fall back on either. I've written three staff handbooks myself which have withstood legal and union scrutiny. That doesn't mean he can't sue and make a case. Of course he can do that. But it likely won't get very far.

He might have a prayer of a chance (sorry!) if the church treats other employees in the same category differently. That category is a 'statutory employee,' not a contract employee or a volunteer. If other part time paid emplyees do not have to pray, THEN you at least have a reason to claim discrimination. In the absence of that condition, it's a very long shot, indeed.

reply to post by sonofliberty1776


I don't see the difference in the two in this circumstance basically they SHOULD do it to save the church from any legal actions, of course it's not required but it looks a lot better on the church's end if they did.... If these things weren't specified the moment of employment than he does have a very strong leg to stand on imho......

Originally posted by Wyn Hawks
...son of liberty is wrong, imo, and his "ruling quotes" are not applicable in this case - because - this is a case of one employee being singled out / treated differently than other employees - and - thats not any kind of religious observance that'll hold up under scrutiny...

please correct me if i'm wrong but no where was it stated that he is being singled out.
do you know the status of any 'other' employees?
musicians may be church members not employees.
light tech may be an independent contractor ... again, not an employee of the church.

sonsof liberty is quite right on this issue, it is pretty much cut and dry as the op IS an employee of the church.
really ?? you think the law fails to address this ?

reply to post by TrueAmerican


You seem to have no integrity regarding your religious beliefs. If I were employed at a mosque and they insisted I kneel and pray towards mecca; I would not do so. I would quit. Same if I was working at a catholic "church". If they wanted me to acknowledge the pope as the head of Christs church, I would not. Christ is the head of his own church. So, you show up and do the work, you go above and beyond what is required of the job; fantastic. Your next employer will find you invaluable, I am sure. Examine yourself and ask yourself...does this church feed me?(spiritually). I doubt that it does or the prayer request would never have needed to be made. Go elsewhere, find a place where you belong.

It's all speculation.

TrueAmerican,
please post the contents of the crumpled up orders/instruction/request.
What ever the hell it is.


David Grouchy

A lot of Christians are really exclusionists. They might think if you pray you aren't the debil.
It might be a test of sorts. A pagan like me can pray to about any god though for something or another; it's not a very good test. If they're god is Jesus maybe you can pray for compassion that this followers will quit forcing you to act like something you aren't so you can have a job.

Personally I might be da debil so I'd just shut my eyes and pray. You can peek - if you peek and someone else is peeking you can see who might be an ally. That's what happens in my family when we are forced to pray. My dad says the prayer and the rest of us sit there winking at each other while it happens.

They are just idiots. If you need the job, pray. You won't go to anyplace you don't want to go for it. Then I'd look for another job and explore legal advice when I'm not at work.

Just don't cut off your nose to spite their prayers - the economy is bad out there.