Pray or You're Fired.

reply to post by TrueAmerican


...first things first - check federal laws so you know whats legal and what isnt...

www.eeoc.gov...

...is the worship-director (what a weird term) the head honcho?... if not, go to the head honcho(s) and present your concerns in a calm rational manner... maybe they're not aware of the wd's control freak bs...

Originally posted by CriticalCK
try to get evidence (this could be anything. like emails fe). dont quit. dont pray. if your employment gets terminated, sue them.

eta: if you really want to get some bucks out of this, pray against your will and feel severily violated

edit on 21-8-2011 by CriticalCK because: (no reason given)

Hehe, well he may have made a very critical mistake. He had the admin leave a printed copy of his demands on the mixing board this morning. In disgust, I crumpled it up and trashed it.

But just as I left, I thought it might come in handy later. So I dug it out and put it in my pocket as I left today. Maybe I will contact a lawyer. God, the last person on EARTH I want to talk to is a lawyer. :shk:

But if that's what it takes, you better believe I will. And yeah, this morning I "prayed against my will" to go along with the program.

I think you are confusing God with church. God is - whatever you believe it is. Church is an organization. those who belong to organization not necessarily belong to God, actually they are far worse than people on the street.
Once i went to church, and the priest red something from old testament. I had some questions afterwards because it didn't sound right to me that God, who is "love", would want to people kill each other and make sacrifices. Guess what happened - priest show me where the door out is, mumbling something about me doubting god's word..it sounded to me like a story about those extremists that go and slay people in gods name, so i asked. WOW! it was a bad idea. So much for "christians"

Originally posted by TrueAmerican

Originally posted by CriticalCK
try to get evidence (this could be anything. like emails fe). dont quit. dont pray. if your employment gets terminated, sue them.

eta: if you really want to get some bucks out of this, pray against your will and feel severily violated

edit on 21-8-2011 by CriticalCK because: (no reason given)

Hehe, well he may have made a very critical mistake. He had the admin leave a printed copy of his demands on the mixing board this morning. In disgust, I crumpled it up and trashed it.

But just as I left, I thought it might come in handy later. So I dug it out and put it in my pocket as I left today. Maybe I will contact a lawyer.

God, the last person on EARTH I want to talk to is a lawyer. :shk:

But if that's what it takes, you better believe I will. And yeah, this morning I "prayed against my will" to go along with the program.

There is an actual printed copy of a demand list for employees??? Well you can chalk that up as a incredible score in your case, fortunate enough you have the evidence to back up your claims....

You are kidding, right? If you are against praying, why are you working at a CHURCH? Stop being a hypocrite. If you are not a Christian, don't work at a Christian church. Go do something more inline with you beliefs, whatever they are.

Originally posted by TrueAmerican
reply to post by jheated5

 

I am regular part time employee, on payroll, them pulling out taxes, the whole bit.

Then you have a legal case, no question. It is illegal to discriminate in employment based on religion. This is specifically in employment law. The real issue is how you want to handle it. In any case, document everything. Get it in writing no matter what. Visit a lawyer and go for it. One good letter from a lawyer SHOULD do it, but we all know these things don't go so easily.

If you do get fired over this issue, you will eventually be entitled to reinstatement and back pay. The real question is: Do you want to put up with all this? It's gonna be a hasle no matter what.

I second the idea of consulting a lawyer. Sounds like religious harassment to me. Unlike choosing to go to a university that is faith based, you've taken a job that has absolutely nothing to do with the divine, except praying to the technological and sound gods when something goes wonky half way through the show. And that is only when you're frantically trying to keep the stuff from hitting the fan. Nope, sounds like a case to me, and in this economy, you have to fight for your position. Hell, if I were you, I'd set up a stink too if the lawyer doesn't mind. Shame the church people for trying to push an agenda that has nothing to do with your personal life.

reply to post by sonofliberty1776


...he doesnt have a problem with praying... he has a problem with being forced to pray...

Originally posted by schuyler

Originally posted by TrueAmerican
reply to post by jheated5

 

I am regular part time employee, on payroll, them pulling out taxes, the whole bit.

Then you have a legal case, no question. It is illegal to discriminate in employment based on religion. This is specifically in employment law. The real issue is how you want to handle it. In any case, document everything. Get it in writing no matter what. Visit a lawyer and go for it. One good letter from a lawyer SHOULD do it, but we all know these things don't go so easily.

If you do get fired over this issue, you will eventually be entitled to reinstatement and back pay. The real question is: Do you want to put up with all this? It's gonna be a hasle no matter what.

Sorry, but as a general rule churches can discriminate based on religion:

Religious Discrimination: Can a Church Hire/Fire Someone Based on Religious Beliefs?
Posted on March 24th, 2011.

Most employers know that Title VII of the Federal Civil Rights Act prohibits employers engaged in commerce and having at least 15 employees from discriminating in any employment decision on the basis of race, color, national origin, gender, or religion. Most states have also enacted laws that dove-tail with the federal law in this regard. This means that most employers cannot fail or refuse to hire someone or to fire someone for one of these discriminatory reasons. However, in keeping with the government’s historical desire to avoid interfering with religious organizations practices, there is a specific exception that exempts religious organizations from the prohibition against discriminating on the basis of religion. Put another way, religious organizations can discriminate against employees on the basis of religion!

In most jurisdictions, this ability to discriminate on the basis of religion has been applied to mean not only for clergy and religious positions, but also for administrative and support positions. The church can insist that its janitors, kitchen help, secretaries, and all staff be Christian even though there is no religious-function directly related to those positions. More specifically, a church can insist that the employee be not only in agreement with the tenets of the general religion, but also with the particular denomination or belief-structure of the individual church. A Baptist church may insist that its employees be Baptists. A church may terminate the employment of a pastor who decides to stop teaching the religious beliefs as adopted and held by the church. Click here for an example of a pastor in North Carolina who was recently terminated for such an occurrence

Link

Religious Discrimination in Hiring

Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 prohibits employers with 15 or more employees from discriminating against employees or job applicants on the basis of race, color, sex, religion, or national origin. Title VII covers hiring, firing, promotion, compensation, benefits, training opportunities, and any other term, condition, or privilege of employment. The exact definition of 15 or more employees means 15 or more people on the payroll for 20 or more weeks in the current or calendar year.

Title VII allows churches and religious organizations to discriminate on the basis of religion. Title VII states that it does not apply to ". . . a religious corporation, association, educational institution, or society with respect to the employment of individuals of a particular religion to perform work connected with the carrying on by such corporation, association, educational institution, or society of its activities."

Under Title VII, religion is defined as all aspects of religious observance, practice, and belief. Churches and religious organizations can discriminate on the basis of religion for all jobs. This includes and is not limited to secretaries, accountants, and janitors. The basis for permissible religious discrimination is the First Amendment's guarantee of religious freedom. The Supreme Court upheld the constitutionality of this in Corporation of the Presiding Bishop of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints v. Amos,483 U.S. 327 (1987).

While Title VII allows religious organizations to discriminate based on religion, it is important that consistent hiring practices be established. All religious organizations should have a written policy about whether or not they will discriminate on the basis of religion. The organization should make this clear to all applicants and not accept applications from those who do not fit the religious requirements. The intention to hire only Christians and any specific hiring policies should be stated on employment applications and employee handbooks. Along these same lines, ministries that expect employees to adhere to certain codes of ethics should detail these expectations clearly.

Christian organizations with 15 or more employees are required by Title VII to put up posters in conspicuous place informing employees of their rights, using the standard language approved by the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission (EEOC). The EEOC language is not to be altered regarding religious discrimination. Therefore, a Christian organization should explain to all employees the organization's exemption from prohibited religious discrimination.

Link

Originally posted by TrueAmerican
Right now I am fuming over this, and need to get this off my chest.

Ha!

Come on man, get a grip.

Tell him "Put it in writting."
If he's not willing to put the request in writting then he's not serious.


David Grouchy

Originally posted by Wyn Hawks
reply to post by sonofliberty1776

 

...he doesnt have a problem with praying... he has a problem with being forced to pray...

Doesn't matter. The church has a right to hire only like minded believers for any and all positions from pastor to janitor. He should man up and follow his conscience. He should leave so that they can hire someone who believes as he does.

Forcing you to pray is a direct violation of your First Amendment rights to freedom of religion.

I would get a good lawyer and sue them.

Just because you work for the Catholic Church, doesn't mean that you have to be a Catholic. Only hiring Catholics would be a violation of the equal rights terms in the employment standards act, therefore, they can't claim that it is within their First Amendment rights to hire only Catholics.

If this is true, you've got them over a barrel on several different fronts, my friend. Sue the smocks off them.

Originally posted by sonofliberty1776
You are kidding, right? If you are against praying, why are you working at a CHURCH? Stop being a hypocrite. If you are not a Christian, don't work at a Christian church. Go do something more inline with you beliefs, whatever they are.

I don't think he's saying he was against praying, as he said that he did this voluntarily.

He IS against this being a REQUIREMENT of the job, which is a violation of both his First Amendment rights AND employment standards.

Originally posted by babybunnies

Originally posted by sonofliberty1776
You are kidding, right? If you are against praying, why are you working at a CHURCH? Stop being a hypocrite. If you are not a Christian, don't work at a Christian church. Go do something more inline with you beliefs, whatever they are.

I don't think he's saying he was against praying, as he said that he did this voluntarily.

He IS against this being a REQUIREMENT of the job, which is a violation of both his First Amendment rights AND employment standards.

No, it isn't! Churches can discriminate on the basis of religion. Please research before you make pronouncements.

You shouldn't have worked for those nincompoops in the first place. Of course you believed in them, if not, you sold your soul to those losers for some dosh. You deserve whatever comes to you. Grow a spine. No pity for you here.

Originally posted by davidgrouchy

Originally posted by TrueAmerican
Right now I am fuming over this, and need to get this off my chest.

Ha!

Come on man, get a grip.

Tell him "Put it in writting."
If he's not willing to put the request in writting then he's not serious.

David Grouchy

Putting it in writing just shows that they are actually following title VII. He has no case. Stand for your beliefs and quit. Go work somewhere else.

...to those who say "get a lawyer", i say nope - not yet...

...first, you try to resolve the problem yourself... if that doesnt work, then you file a complaint with EEOC... they investigate, which includes sending notice to the employer... if they determine you have a valid case, there are procedures in place to accomodate you...

...hiring a lawyer comes only after you've gone thru the procedures and still dont get the result you want - unless you can afford to hire a lawyer to do something that you can get done for free...

actually, it might be wise to inquire of the laws of your state, not just the fed codes.
back some time ago (early 90s), here in FL, i worked for an auto auction that held weekly prayer breakfasts (not on scheduled duty time either) and attendance/participation was mandatory.

To this day, i still don't 'understand' why but the laws here are not soooooo particular.
since this is a 'right to work' state, the discrimination factor only applies if i was fired Because of my Religion ... not for lack of participation in theirs. Hence, employment there didn't last long.

do keep in mind, until you have suffered a 'loss' you have no legal recourse.
if you choose to play along, (as you stated earlier), it does become much more difficult to raise a red flag later. If you truly oppose such a demand, voice your concerns with appropriate 'leaders' in the church, first.

i would not contact a lawyer immediately as you might get the boot unnecessarily. the whole situation may be a mere miscommunication.

besides, if you follow correct chain of command procedures and have to contact an attorney at a later date, your efforts to resolve the issue will only help any potential case.

pursuing litigation over a 'request' that simply offends you will quite possibly produce a result you hadn't anticipated.
good luck.

Originally posted by sonofliberty1776

Originally posted by Wyn Hawks
reply to post by sonofliberty1776

 

...he doesnt have a problem with praying... he has a problem with being forced to pray...

Doesn't matter. The church has a right to hire only like minded believers for any and all positions from pastor to janitor. He should man up and follow his conscience. He should leave so that they can hire someone who believes as he does.

I stand corrected. Sonofliberty is right and he's backed up his case with a citation of the law. Looks like you are screwed, buddy. Pray or quit.

Did he specify who you had to pray too or what about?

If not then pray loudly to the flying spaghetti monster that you can keep your job

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