Fox News Viewers Threaten Atheists Over 9/11 Cross Lawsuit

Originally posted by GogoVicMorrow
Also still waiting on that proof that this has anything to do with separation of church and state.

The group cites the First Amendment, highlighting the use of taxpayer funds for the development of the memorial, which is scheduled to open later this year on the 10th anniversary of the 9/11 attacks.

"The September 11 Memorial and Museum will be largely funded with money from the government. Accordingly, actions taken by the September 11 Memorial and Museum also constitute governmental action," American Atheists say in their complaint.

The group cites the more than $79 million of public funds provided for the memorial in 2009, and another $133 million appropriated the following year. The amounts account for 60 percent and 59 percent, respectively, of the memorial's total unrestricted funds for each year.

www.arcamax.com...

And - - to avoid unnecessary "nit-picking" - - - - yes - I realize that is the complaint. It is up to the courts to decide if government funding is being used and if its in violation.

Originally posted by Annee

Originally posted by GogoVicMorrow
reply to post by Annee

 

No that is misguided thought. Separation of church and state is there to keep the church from running the government THAT'S IT. It doesn't mean the government has a restraining order against the church.

Be liberal all you want, just don't be unreasonable.

I am fully aware of what Separation of Church and State is. I've been debating it for about 20 years.

Atheists are right to call attention to and file suit in any questionable violation - related to Separation of Church and State.

If government funding is being used to put up a cross that clearly represents Christianity - - - the Atheists are correct in making a case.

This is fact based. It has nothing to do with political thinking - - Atheists are both Conservative and Liberal. I personally am Social Liberal - Fiscal Conservative.

If I recall correctly your all about equality...Separation of church and state would mean that only atheism is represented by the government.

All your capitol buildings, court buildings are atheistic, it represents no religion. So wheres our equally represented Christian, or Jewish government building?

Originally posted by DrChuck
If I recall correctly your all about equality...Separation of church and state would mean that only atheism is represented by the government.

All your capitol buildings, court buildings are atheistic, it represents no religion. So wheres our equally represented Christian, or Jewish government building?

NO.

Atheism is not a belief. It is lack of belief.

Separation of Church and State - - doesn't favor anyone. That's the point.

reply to post by Annee


Whether its a lack of belief or a belief that a God is nonexistent, its beside the point. Atheists just as Christians are a demographic group of people. Separation of Church and State only allows the representation of Atheism by the government.

Originally posted by DrChuck
reply to post by Annee

 

Whether its a lack of belief or a belief that a God is nonexistent, its beside the point. Atheists just as Christians are a demographic group of people. Separation of Church and State only allows the representation of Atheism by the government.

Whether god exists or not is beside the point.

The American government was designed to be secular. Laws are non-partisan - - they apply to all.

How are Atheists a demographic group? They are not a group at all really - - other then a need to organize to keep America secular.

No one is stopping anyone from practicing their belief. Government protects that also.

first, i dont think atheists have any business objecting to anything involving religious observance. if they dont believe it thats fine, and they are entitled to their beliefs but that doesnt mean they should actively oppose anyone elses.


second these so called christians, are nothing more than the usual e-thug that promotes violence under the umbrella of anonymity. maybe some sociology expert can chime in with the motives for this kind of behavoir, but its really just sad and pathetic, and to do it on behalf of christianity is sacrilege, so their beliefs are superficial if anything.

reply to post by Annee


Thanks. Though the numbers they are putting out are funding not really the cross (which is just part of the memorial) but also the museum. It will probably make more money than will have been spent on it.

Now I will say.. it still has nothing to do with separation of church and state. That is just Atheist's idiotic perception.
If it was just a non religious work of art paid for by government money would you care then? No.

Does this cross magically influence policy? No.

Originally posted by GogoVicMorrow
reply to post by Annee

 

Thanks. Though the numbers they are putting out are funding not really the cross (which is just part of the memorial) but also the museum. It will probably make more money than will have been spent on it.

Oh come on - - - its all the same museum/memorial.

Besides the Atheists are only asking for representation from all faiths or remove a specific one. That would seem the Christian thing to do to me.

But - its now up to the courts.

Originally posted by snarfbot
first, i dont think atheists have any business objecting to anything involving religious observance.

Yes - they do.

If it is on government property or government funds are being used.

Originally posted by Annee

Originally posted by DrChuck
reply to post by Annee

 

Whether its a lack of belief or a belief that a God is nonexistent, its beside the point. Atheists just as Christians are a demographic group of people. Separation of Church and State only allows the representation of Atheism by the government.

Whether god exists or not is beside the point.

The American government was designed to be secular. Laws are non-partisan - - they apply to all.

How are Atheists a demographic group? They are not a group at all really - - other then a need to organize to keep America secular.

No one is stopping anyone from practicing their belief. Government protects that also.

What do you mean how are atheists a demographic group? They are the group of people in the US that do not believe in a God. Is that not a group of people that share the same beliefs? Can they not be set apart as a group in a population concerning religions? Do you know what demographics mean?

Believe it or not, atheism is as much a religion as Islam, Bhuddism, or Hinduism. They are all based on faith. Atheism is merely the faith that no God can exist. As you stated in a earlier post, God can neither be proven nor disproven to exist. Religions believe in a God but cannot prove He exists, hence a faith based belief. Atheism cannot prove God does not exist, and to deny Gods existence requires faith.

But don't take my word for it. The Supreme Court of the United States also agrees with me, Torcaso v. Watkins.

reply to post by Annee


Why do they have any more say than religious folk? And don't give me separation of church and state because saying religious symbols should be banned is a perversion of the idea and every intelligent person knows it.

Separation of church and state is only there to keep the church from running the country as was a problem in England.

Originally posted by Annee

Originally posted by snarfbot
first, i dont think atheists have any business objecting to anything involving religious observance.

Yes - they do.

If it is on government property or government funds are being used.

annee, it was an ATTACK on the USA, not an accident.

the government should pay for it and all should be represented to their satisfaction and tasteful.

reply to post by Annee


No. Because they leave it open to the interpretation that the cross cost this when it is actually the price of the entire museum and memorial. The cross is likely the only religious object in it..

You come on.

reply to post by fooks


Both theists and atheists are represented.
For theists there is a cross for atheists there is nothing.
; )

As I've said before I'm completely agnostic.. so I think they are all being silly.

Originally posted by DrChuck
What do you mean how are atheists a demographic group? They are the group of people in the US that do not believe in a God. Is that not a group of people that share the same beliefs? Can they not be set apart as a group in a population concerning religions? Do you know what demographics mean?

I see a lot of people asking why Atheists should care.

I have a better question. Why do religious types like DrChuck here keep lying about what Atheism is in order to win an argument? Atheists do not need to lie to be Atheists but people who believe in a God keep lying about Atheism. Why is that? Doesn't your god teach you not to? Is your faith that weak that it can only be bolstered by lies?

reply to post by Kitilani


I agree that what he said didn't make much sense.. but honestly they shouldn't care.

Originally posted by DrChuck Torcaso v. Watkins.

It's a sad little club that would make things come to this. Somehow the religious have not only become the majority and sequestered the power, they make religion a requirement and a guidepost.

Also, we atheists are not religious. We did not introduce the God concept. We are called atheists because it's easier to say than "people who don't believe in the coping mechanisms of imaginary friends and wishing for an afterlife"

Originally posted by Rockpuck
Generally, common sense prevails.. anyways..

Common sense has nothing to do with actually proving what you said is factually correct.

1% were Muslim.
15% were Jewish
Approx 80% Christian (most being Catholic)
majorityrights.com...
islam.about.com...
www.philaahzophy.com...
en.wikipedia.org...

Did you think I would not even bother to check your links?

I would love to see you quote FROM YOUR LINKS the proof you think is in there. One is just a list of people that died with no religious affiliation listed at all.

Among items being put in the Museum are a Bible with a piece of steel embedded in it. A Jewish shawl. The Cross was the only thing being objected to. Because it's a "symbol", even if it is also history.

In short.. Progressive Political Correctness gone wild.

Is this what happens when you cannot back up what you say? You wander off?

For the exact opposite the reasons I just stated? Just as any real religion would care.. but Atheist believe in nothing, so it shouldn't matter. Removing religious symbolism is a violation of the 1st amendment. Atheism, not being a religion, should not be able to trump other religions just because an extreme minority are "offended".

That sure is some random smattering of words. First you all need to decide of you want to deride Atheism as a religion or not. Get on the same page there. Then get your facts straight about what they believe. Not believing in your imaginary friend is hardly not believing in anything. How removing a symbol from government funded property violates the 1st is going to have to be explained in great detail.

Originally posted by Lemon.Fresh
reply to post by Kitilani

 

Actually, their suit says to represent all, or take them all down.

Which is different from what I stated how?

I can easily agree with representing all. No issue.

But if they do not represent some, you will be ok with that too?

My issue is with taking them all down.

My issue is your inability to read the word "or" after you wrote it.

reply to post by drew1749


No more so than the religious nuts that are demanding two pieces of metal be included in a non-religious matter in order to make sure that their god gets name dropped and all others be damned.

Seriously, who is fighting whom here?
The Atheists just asked to be included.
Why are the Christians against that?
Christians sure do whine when they are not included. How about a little respect there?