Something in Matthew and Luke has me puzzled

Originally posted by jmdewey60
God the Son. First there is no such thing that I can find in the Bible. Second, that is still calling Jesus, God. Once you get to that point, there is no need for further discussion, as far as I am concerned.

I've already cited earlier where Jesus stated that he was eternal and was equivalent with God. This was stated in numerous places in the new and Old Testament. For instance it's stated here in no uncertain terms that he was equal with God.

Think of yourselves the way Christ Jesus thought of himself. He had equal status with God but didn't think so much of himself that he had to cling to the advantages of that status no matter what. Not at all. When the time came, he set aside the privileges of deity and took on the status of a slave, became human! Having become human, he stayed human. It was an incredibly humbling process. He didn't claim special privileges. Instead, he lived a selfless, obedient life and then died a selfless, obedient death—and the worst kind of death at that—a crucifixion.

Philippians 2:5-7

Originally posted by racasan

Matt.4
[8] Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;
[9] And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.

Luke 4
5 And the devil, taking him up into an high mountain, shewed unto him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time.
6 And the devil said unto him, All this power will I give thee, and the glory of them: for that is delivered unto me; and to whomsoever I will I give it.

Ok so if Jesus is god or at lest 1/3 of him, then what on earth is the devil doing trying to tempt god (1/3) with his own property?

It would be like some person off the street coming into the house you have bought and paid for and saying “if you declare you love me you can have this house you already own”

So
Is the devil confused about who Jesus is and Jesus was just too polite to say anything?
or
Are christians confused about who Jesus is?
Or
Is the bible just a story with some daft bits in it?

Satan is appealing to Yeshua's human side. Remember Yeshua had a human mother. Yes Yeshua is a part of God and yes satan was tempting God with his own real estate, which is why he didnt fall for it. You have to remember that as part of the trinity, Jesus (Yeshua) had access to God's knowledge, which was why he knew people would do things before they did them.

Mark: 29 But Peter said unto him, Although all shall be offended, yet will not I. 30 And Jesus saith unto him, Verily I say unto thee, That this day, even in this night, before the cock crow twice, thou shalt deny me thrice. 31 But he spake the more vehemently, If I should die with thee, I will not deny thee in any wise. Likewise also said they all.

"As they were eating, He said, 'Truly I say to you that one of you will betray Me.' Being deeply grieved, they each one began to say to Him, 'Surely not I, Lord?' And He answered, 'He who dipped his hand with Me in the bowl is the one who will betray Me. The Son of Man is to go, just as it is written of Him; but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been good for that man if he had not been born.' And Judas, who was betraying Him, said, 'Surely it is not I, Rabbi?' Jesus said to him, 'You have said it yourself.'" (Matthew 26:21-25)

It's hard to say that Yeshua isnt a part of the trinity when he knows what youre going to do before you do it. God tells us in the Bible that he knew us before we were born, and he knew who we would become and what we would do. Now, i don't know about you, but i have yet to meet anyone that could tell you what you were going to do before you even thought of it. Scientifically its impossible.

reply to post by dbates
Well you don't seem to be one of the people I would have a problem with, then.

reply to post by lonewolf19792000

Satan is appealing to Yeshua's human side. Remember Yeshua had a human mother. Yes Yeshua is a part of God and yes satan was tempting God with his own real estate, which is why he didnt fall for it. You have to remember that as part of the trinity, Jesus (Yeshua) had access to God's knowledge, which was why he knew people would do things before they did them.
It's hard to say that Yeshua isnt a part of the trinity when he knows what youre going to do before you do it. God tells us in the Bible that he knew us before we were born, and he knew who we would become and what we would do. Now, i don't know about you, but i have yet to meet anyone that could tell you what you were going to do before you even thought of it. Scientifically its impossible.

Jesus had a human father it says five times in the Gospels, at least, that Joseph was Jesus' father.
Jesus was 100% human.
How can something or someone be "part of God"?
Jesus did not own anything, being the son of a carpenter.
God could tell Jesus things and possibly he remembered being with God before he became a man.

reply to post by AQuestion


Actually the reason Satan tempted Jesus in the wilderness was to get him to use his God powers to save himself from starvation and dying of thirst, not because Satan wanted proof of who he was. When Jesus refused Satan left and angels came down and tended to him and refreshed him.

It was a power play by Satan to see if he could make the Son of God bow before him, or to see if Satan could make Jesus use his power for selfish ends. Jesus was God amoung us in flesh, he became mortal and became our servant to die and redeem us in the process. His physical body was the sin offering to the world, the way that sin offerings were offered to God for transgressions, that was his sole purpose in coming to earth. God himself couldnt stand the sight of sin, so he created a medium that could take it and he sent the Word into the medium. Jesus was the Word and he also is God. "In the beginning there was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God, forever and ever Amen".

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by lonewolf19792000

 

Satan is appealing to Yeshua's human side. Remember Yeshua had a human mother. Yes Yeshua is a part of God and yes satan was tempting God with his own real estate, which is why he didnt fall for it. You have to remember that as part of the trinity, Jesus (Yeshua) had access to God's knowledge, which was why he knew people would do things before they did them.
It's hard to say that Yeshua isnt a part of the trinity when he knows what youre going to do before you do it. God tells us in the Bible that he knew us before we were born, and he knew who we would become and what we would do. Now, i don't know about you, but i have yet to meet anyone that could tell you what you were going to do before you even thought of it. Scientifically its impossible.

Jesus had a human father it says five times in the Gospels, at least, that Joseph was Jesus' father.
Jesus was 100% human.
How can something or someone be "part of God"?
Jesus did not own anything, being the son of a carpenter.
God could tell Jesus things and possibly he remembered being with God before he became a man.

No, you are wrong. Joseph was Jesus' ADOPTED father.

(Matt. 1:16; Luke 3:23)

18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.

19 Then Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not willing to make her a publick example, was minded to put her away privily.

20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.

Who knew?

The angel of the Lord, is Jesus' pre-incarnate form.
It's hard for Joseph to be the 100% human father of Jesus when he never slept with Mary yet.

reply to post by lonewolf19792000

No, you are wrong. Joseph was Jesus' ADOPTED father.
(Matt. 1:16; Luke 3:23)

No, that doesn't work, the Luke 3:23 verse.
May gets pregnant, then gets married, the child is born and grows up, and it is assumed by all who were aware of the circumstances, that Joseph was the father all along. That's what it looks like to me. If Jesus was not actually very similar to Joseph, they would have assumed that Mary was doing it with someone else.
So your argument fails the logic test and you already ignored the scripture test.
The one in Mathew is really ambiguous.

The angel of the Lord, is Jesus' pre-incarnate form.

A myth.

It's hard for Joseph to be the 100% human father of Jesus when he never slept with Mary yet.

Then you have never heard of artificial insemination.

reply to post by lonewolf19792000


Dear lonewolf19792000,

I would in fact agree with most of what you said. I just question Satan's motivation and we don't have a clear statement on what it was.

Actually the reason Satan tempted Jesus in the wilderness was to get him to use his God powers to save himself from starvation and dying of thirst, not because Satan wanted proof of who he was. When Jesus refused Satan left and angels came down and tended to him and refreshed him

Let us just examine what occurred. If we assume that Satan knew Jesus was the Christ then I believe he would have known that nothing would tempt him. Jesus' time in the wilderness is exactly what one would have expected from a prophet. Perhaps Satan knew there was something different about this one, he knew that a messiah was to come, many assumed it was John the Baptist. This is just conjecture on my part. John the Baptist for his part said that there was one coming after him who was greater. I would think that Satan would have understood that and been looking for him. I have a analogy in Revelations where Satan tries to find the woman with the child; but, she escapes. He did not find her in time, that means he doesn't know quite a lot.

Anyways, that is my best guess at present. Be well.

reply to post by jmdewey60


For all intents and purposes Joseph HAD to claim Jesus as his own son. If word had gotten out that Mary was pregnant before Joseph the Pharisees would have dragged her into the town square and stoned her to death. Joseph did not want this which was why he chose not to make it a "public" matter. It doesnt mean that Joseph was the biological father of Jesus. Have you never lied to protect someone you loved? Would you not do it if you had to?

reply to post by AQuestion


I agree that when Jesus was born Satan did not know exactly where he was or to whom he was born, which was why he tried to murder Jesus after he was born by having Herod orde that the first born sons up to the age of 3 be killed. Until Jesus died on the cross and went to hell to take the keys of death from Satan, Satan had dominion over who could die. I have no doubts however, that if Jesus had been discovered by Satan before he could defend himself that there would have been a war on earth right then between Satan and the angels protecting Jesus. Jesus not coming into his own until his gospel began may have been a defense mechanism to keep Satan from finding out who he was until he was ready to use his power. Unlike God, Satan is not all knowing, nor is he omnipresent. He is fast but he cant be everywhere at one time. As ever God knew exactly what to do and how to do it to keep his wayward nemesis out of the loop.

Originally posted by lonewolf19792000
reply to post by jmdewey60

 

For all intents and purposes Joseph HAD to claim Jesus as his own son. If word had gotten out that Mary was pregnant before Joseph the Pharisees would have dragged her into the town square and stoned her to death. Joseph did not want this which was why he chose not to make it a "public" matter. It doesnt mean that Joseph was the biological father of Jesus. Have you never lied to protect someone you loved? Would you not do it if you had to?

So it is ok for you to say the Bible lies, too?

reply to post by lonewolf19792000


Dear lonewolf19792000,

I absolutely agree with what you just wrote and liked how you summed it up.

Unlike God, Satan is not all knowing, nor is he omnipresent. He is fast but he cant be everywhere at one time. As ever God knew exactly what to do and how to do it to keep his wayward nemesis out of the loop.

We must admit that he has a good public relations person. He has a couple of advantages over us, first he knows that the spiritual realm is real and he knows what the fight is over. The other thing he knows is how we like being deceived, we love excuses and justifications for doing wrong and he is the mother of all lies. Yet, with all of that he still could not figure out that Job would prove him wrong. For all his time observing us, he still cannot understand us when we do right.

The devil is certainly a minor character in the bible. Contrary to popular belief hell is not mentioned often either. It makes it difficult for us to get a read on him; but, we do have somethings to go on. There is no indication that he is smarter than us. He is a limited sentient being just as we are. Maybe he never gets any smarter, we grow, perhaps he does not. Perhaps that is the difference between humans and angels.

Even in Revelations Satan does not seem to get any smarter. I think of the story of the two witnesses. I mean they have these really intimidating abilities and Satan kills them; but, they come alive three days later. It sure looks like Satan makes the same mistake again and again, never knowing who the real ones are.

Just some thoughts. Peace

reply to post by jmdewey60

Jesus had a human father it says five times in the Gospels, at least, that Joseph was Jesus' father.

Actually, the only Bibles that claim Joseph was the father of Jesus are derived from Westcott and Hort, two unbelievers who rejected the deity of Jesus Christ. The Byzantine text, or Textus Receptus doesn't say Joseph was Jesus's father. The changes were made by those in Alexandria who rejected the divinity of Christ.

The same fellas that expurgated the last 12 verses of Mark because they also rejected a physical, bodily resurrection.

reply to post by jmdewey60

A myth.

No, in Theology pre-incarnate appearances of Jesus Christ are called "Christophanies".

My favorite examples are when Christ appeared with two angels to have dinner with Abraham and Sarah and she mocks Him for telling her she will conceive and bear a child. And in Joshua chapter 5 He shows up and fights the battle of Jericho for the Israelites.

reply to post by NOTurTypical

No, in Theology. . .

You have a very broad definition for theology, then.
Something like calling the NT Torah?
I don't think Jesus appreciates you making him out to be a mass murderer.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by jmdewey60

 

Jesus had a human father it says five times in the Gospels, at least, that Joseph was Jesus' father.

Actually, the only Bibles that claim Joseph was the father of Jesus are derived from Westcott and Hort, two unbelievers who rejected the deity of Jesus Christ. The Byzantine text, or Textus Receptus doesn't say Joseph was Jesus's father. The changes were made by those in Alexandria who rejected the divinity of Christ.

The same fellas that expurgated the last 12 verses of Mark because they also rejected a physical, bodily resurrection.

Did you look up any of those verses I quoted to you before?
I think you would have pointed it out if they did not match up with your Bible, so you are just making this all up as a smoke screen for your lies.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

No, in Theology. . .

You have a very broad definition for theology, then.
Something like calling the NT Torah?
I don't think Jesus appreciates you making him out to be a mass murderer.

edit on 13-8-2011 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)

Murderer?? Murder is something humans do. When God takes a life it's His soverign judgment against unrighteousness. What I said is accurate, look up what "Christophanies" are.

Originally posted by jmdewey60

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by jmdewey60

 

Jesus had a human father it says five times in the Gospels, at least, that Joseph was Jesus' father.

Actually, the only Bibles that claim Joseph was the father of Jesus are derived from Westcott and Hort, two unbelievers who rejected the deity of Jesus Christ. The Byzantine text, or Textus Receptus doesn't say Joseph was Jesus's father. The changes were made by those in Alexandria who rejected the divinity of Christ.

The same fellas that expurgated the last 12 verses of Mark because they also rejected a physical, bodily resurrection.

Did you look up any of those verses I quoted to you before?
I think you would have pointed it out if they did not match up with your Bible, so you are just making this all up as a smoke screen for your lies.

No "lies" here. The Gnostics expurgated the last 12 verses from Mark in the 4th century A.D. Irenaeus quotes from them in his commentary on Mark in 150 A.D. that's a matter of historical record. Hippolyteus also quotes from them in the 3rd century. There is no excuse for ignorance in regards to these "missing" verses.

reply to post by NOTurTypical
I think everyone knows about the snake handling and poison drinking verses being taken out and what is all this about Gnostics.
I said there are these verses pointing to Joseph being Jesus' father and actually spelling it out.
Are you now saying those were all added?
If so, why don't you point out where they are not in the KJV.
This is what I am talking about, in case anyone is wondering what my problem is.
You are always switching things to avoid the truth.
I don't know why you perpetuate your lies in the face of proof that they are lies.
Either prove me wrong, or just keep lying, in which case I will continue to point out your lies.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

I think everyone knows about the snake handling and poison drinking verses being taken out and what is all this about Gnostics.
I said there are these verses pointing to Joseph being Jesus' father and actually spelling it out.
Are you now saying those were all added?
If so, why don't you point out where they are not in the KJV.
This is what I am talking about, in case anyone is wondering what my problem is.
You are always switching things to avoid the truth.
I don't know why you perpetuate your lies in the face of proof that they are lies.
Either prove me wrong, or just keep lying, in which case I will continue to point out your lies.

edit on 13-8-2011 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)

The reason you perceive everyone to be "lying" to you is you fail to read easily written posts. Or you ignore them completely. As I said earlier, not only did the Gnostic Christians at Alexandria change the text to make Joseph the "father" of Jesus. (He wasn't) but they ALSO removed the last 12 verses of Mark which dealt with Christ's bodily resurrection from the grave. (Which they also rejected)

Try simple reading comprehension, just give it a try. Then you won't be constantly confusing your reading errors with other people's integrity. It would be comical if I wasn't certain you actually believe people are lying to you when you consistently (I think purposefully), misrepresent what people say. Heck, read posts a few times, then ponder what is being said, then give it a final couple more readings, then make an attempt to respond.