Something in Matthew and Luke has me puzzled

Originally posted by dbates

Originally posted by jmdewey60
So your point is we are to worship a thing which He designates as an object of worship and don't be thinking about an actual God.

We're having some kind of disconnect. I didn't think I ever insinuated anything but that the worship of Jesus or God was just. I don't advocate the worship of anything else. That was one of the key points Jesus made that was pointed out in the original post. We're just to worship God.

Are you saying that the worship of Jesus is idolatry?

Basically, he denies Jesus was worshiped and accepted worship while on Earth.

NOTurTypical believes that all worship of any kind, this display of respect, is automatically calling the recipient of it, God.
This comes from an event with no witnesses, between Jesus and the Devil, where Jesus quotes an OT verse, ". . worship the Lord only. . ."
I suppose a memo went out to everyone that if you show respect to Jesus, you are making him out to be God.
So Jesus, in an instant, redefined the world's culture to fit this saying of his, that no human other than himself ever heard.

reply to post by jmdewey60


No, no.. I show respect to my mailwoman when she delivers the mail, I show respect to an officer if pulled over for speeding. When people fell prostrate bwfore the Son of the living God it was to worship Him.

And He did not rebuke them.

In John 8:58 Jesus said, “Before Abraham was, I am.” After saying this the Jews wanted to kill him because they understood that he was saying he was the one that talked to Moses from the burning bush. Additionally Jesus claimed that he could forgive sin which only could be done by God. Jesus made it quite clear that he was God.

Philip said, “Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us.”

9 Jesus answered: “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father.

John 14:8-11

reply to post by dbates


Precisely, Christ was sought to be murdered for blasphemy. So He was either crazy, lying, or was God in the flesh and blood.

I know where my faith is. The Lord God Almighty, the Alpha and Omega, the Aleph and the Tau.

reply to post by dbates
All by an avatar, while the actual God is outside of the universe in the eleventh dimension.
So Jesus was a virtual God, since every god-like person ever mentioned were all God avatars, so God was everywhere while at the same time, nowhere.
Well, now that we cleared that all up.

reply to post by racasan

Originally posted by racasan

Matt.4
[8] Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;
[9] And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.

Luke 4
5 And the devil, taking him up into an high mountain, shewed unto him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time.
6 And the devil said unto him, All this power will I give thee, and the glory of them: for that is delivered unto me; and to whomsoever I will I give it.

Ok so if Jesus is god or at lest 1/3 of him, then what on earth is the devil doing trying to tempt god (1/3) with his own property?

It would be like some person off the street coming into the house you have bought and paid for and saying “if you declare you love me you can have this house you already own”

Actually those verses from Matthew and Luke are often used to prove that Jesus was not God. The fact that Jesus resisted the devil using quotes from the scripture shows that Jesus himself was following a religon.

Then, theres also that bit when Jesus was praying to God, asking to be saved from those who wanted to crucify him.
... and plenty of other instances where Jesus draws a clear distinction between him and God... and makes it clear that only God who sent him is to be worshipped.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n


Dear sk0rpi0n,

The fact that Jesus resisted the devil using quotes from the scripture shows that Jesus himself was following a religon. Then, theres also that bit when Jesus was praying to God, asking to be saved from those who wanted to crucify him. ... and plenty of other instances where Jesus draws a clear distinction between him and God... and makes it clear that only God who sent him is to be worshipped.

I am sure that you also know that many said that Jesus used the bible not because he was following a religion; but, because he knew it was effective. Satan did not know who Jesus was and was given no answers. Jesus allowed Satan to wonder who he was. As for asking to be saved from those who wished to crucify him, please give a chapter and verse. You cannot mean the one where he asked "Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done." as that is believed to have been for our benefit and showing us the way to live our lives. He had already told the apostles he was to die and that it was what should be. He was not asking to be saved from death or from pain, he was afraid of having to leave his loved ones behind.

reply to post by AQuestion

I am sure that you also know that many said that Jesus used the bible not because he was following a religion; but, because he knew it was effective.

Jesus makes it rather clear that he is continuing the Abrahamic tradition like those who came before him. He did not come here to establish a new religon, but rather remind people to follow the religion already in existence.

Satan did not know who Jesus was and was given no answers. Jesus allowed Satan to wonder who he was.

Satan begins his tempting by saying "if you are the son of God...." so Satan was not clueless about Jesus.

As for asking to be saved from those who wished to crucify him, please give a chapter and verse. You cannot mean the one where he asked "Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done." as that is believed to have been for our benefit and showing us the way to live our lives. He had already told the apostles he was to die and that it was what should be. He was not asking to be saved from death or from pain, he was afraid of having to leave his loved ones behind.

Errr... In those verses, its made clear that Jesus was afraid for himself because he knew what was coming. Jesus displayed fear and was clearly worried... so much so that he prayed for himself, looking to be saved before adding that "Gods will be done."
One cant conclude that Jesus in his darkest hour, was actually looking to show us "the way to live our lives", unless we bring in verses from other parts of the bible, weaving in unrelated parts of christian theology.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n


Dear sk0rpi0n,

Just to be clear, I am not seeking to argue, merely discuss why we see things differently, if this is okay with you than I shall continue, if it is not then please tell me so and I will cease responding. We do differ and I believe we both have our reasons.

Satan begins his tempting by saying "if you are the son of God...." so Satan was not clueless about Jesus. As for asking to be saved from those who wished to crucify him, please give a chapter and verse. You cannot mean the one where he asked "Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done." as that is believed to have been for our benefit and showing us the way to live our lives. He had already told the apostles he was to die and that it was what should be. He was not asking to be saved from death or from pain, he was afraid of having to leave his loved ones behind. Errr... In those verses, its made clear that Jesus was afraid for himself because he knew what was coming. Jesus displayed fear and was clearly worried... so much so that he prayed for himself, looking to be saved before adding that "Gods will be done." One cant conclude that Jesus in his darkest hour, was actually looking to show us "the way to live our lives", unless we bring in verses from other parts of the bible, weaving in unrelated parts of christian theology.

Your first sentence, I did not say he was clueless, I said he did not know, that is why he requested proof. Satan is far from all knowing, consider how wrong he was about Job. In the verse I did quote you say it shows that Jesus showed he was afraid; but, it never says that. The people who closest to him never said he was afraid or that they thought he was. Why should they include the statement at all, why did they write it down, to prove he was afraid? Sorry, Jesus told them that if they had faith they could do anything and they were willing to die for that belief. He did not pray for himself, he asked if the cup could be taken away and said he was willing to do whatever. There are alternate explanations from trying to put things in our terms. Choose which you will; but, can we agree that neither is provable 100%?

reply to post by AQuestion

Originally posted by AQuestion
reply to post by sk0rpi0n

 

Dear sk0rpi0n,

Just to be clear, I am not seeking to argue, merely discuss why we see things differently, if this is okay with you than I shall continue, if it is not then please tell me so and I will cease responding. We do differ and I believe we both have our reasons.

Same here.

Your first sentence, I did not say he was clueless, I said he did not know, that is why he requested proof.

errr... It doesnt look like Satan was requesting proof.
Satan was clearly trying to manipulate Jesus into testing God... hence he starts off with "if you are the son of God...". Satan did not go around requesting proof from everybody else he suspected was the messiah... by tempting them. Satan knew who Jesus was.

Satan is far from all knowing, consider how wrong he was about Job.

Satan is not all knowing, in the sense, he could not tell the outcome of his attempts against Jesus and Job. But going by the scriptures he seemed to be sure about Jesus' messiahship.

In the verse I did quote you say it shows that Jesus showed he was afraid; but, it never says that. The people who closest to him never said he was afraid or that they thought he was. Why should they include the statement at all, why did they write it down, to prove he was afraid? Sorry, Jesus told them that if they had faith they could do anything and they were willing to die for that belief. He did not pray for himself, he asked if the cup could be taken away and said he was willing to do whatever.

He first asked for the "cup to be taken away"... meaning he was NOT very comfortable with the idea of knowing what was coming his way..... and then, in the same verse concluded that Gods will be done, not his. Jesus could NOT have been happy with being arrested and yet pray for the "cup to be taken away".

In other words, Jesus indeed wanted a way out, but still submitted to Gods will being carried out.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n

In other words, Jesus indeed wanted a way out, but still submitted to Gods will being carried out.

Which is the normal interpretation and the only one I am familiar with.
A Question has an interpretation that seems to me to be coming from a school of thought that demands that Jesus was not a man but just looked like one. This type of mind-set, to me is the definition of the ant-christ, as spelled out in the letters of John. Those who deny that Jesus came in the flesh. Pro-divinity of Jesus types would like to say that John was only talking about Gnostics who thought the material world was evil. I don't see that, and what they say does not rise, to me, higher than being just an opinion.
John was talking about people who did not want to see Jesus as being one of us. Now I understand the logic of how they are so dogmatic about making sure Jesus is not Son of God, but actually God. One reason, they want you to go to hell. They don't tell you that, of course, but they don't want any people thinking they could be like Jesus, being good, by following the spirit Jesus gives us for that purpose, and becoming a holy people. They want to instead present a people who are born holy on account of their bloodline. As long as Jesus is God, we have no hope of being like Jesus. We give up and fall into our natural pattern of ordinary sinfulness. These preachers of the anti-christ allow you to do sin without fear, because they offer free grace for those who will never actually look at their Bibles to understand it is fake.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
All by an avatar, while the actual God is outside of the universe in the eleventh dimension.

No you're missing the concept of what being in a higher dimension means. It's isn't that you're not in the lower dimension, but that you need a representation of yourself in that lower dimension to properly interact with that dimension. Look at your shadow when you're outside. It's in the 2nd dimension. You can't put all of yourself in to the same dimension as your shadow because it wouldn't contain what you are. There's not enough instruction in the 2nd dimension to describe what your body is and how it is all related. So a being in a higher dimension can put part of itself into our world, but it can't put it's entire essence here. Higher dimensional beings can easily describe beings in a lower dimension, but the reverse isn't true.

So Jesus was a virtual God

Like your shadow is a representation of yourself in the 2nd dimension. That doesn't mean that the things your shadow does are not caused by real events or actions in a higher dimension. Your shadow is not a "fake" you but rather a description of the real you in a lower dimension. Jesus was not just a virtual or fake God but we can't expect to actually see God's entirety in this dimension.

You can get an idea just looking at the shadows what's happening in the higher dimension but a lot of the detail is lost since it can't be described in the lower dimension.

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/b565f6d6ad46.jpg[/atsimg]


EDIT: Jesus existed with God outside of this universe but he took on a human form in this dimension. He is both fully human, and fully God and resides in both places at once. Just because you don't understand how that works doesn't mean it isn't possible.

reply to post by jmdewey60

Now I understand the logic of how they are so dogmatic about making sure Jesus is not Son of God, but actually God.

No one here said Jesus is "not the Son of God". Jesus is the Son, He is not the Father and He is not the Holy Spirit. Are you purposely refusing to acknowledge we believe in a triune Godhead?

reply to post by dbates

EDIT: Jesus existed with God outside of this universe but he took on a human form in this dimension. He is both fully human, and fully God and resides in both places at once. Just because you don't understand how that works doesn't mean it isn't possible.

Precisely. I love your illustrations, first the car and now shadows. You have a gift brother, son of the Most High.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by jmdewey60

 

Now I understand the logic of how they are so dogmatic about making sure Jesus is not Son of God, but actually God.

No one here said Jesus is "not the Son of God". Jesus is the Son, He is not the Father and He is not the Holy Spirit. Are you purposely refusing to acknowledge we believe in a triune Godhead?

Well go ahead and explain what that is, then. Maybe you could clear up some of my misperceptions and by the way, it might be useful to like, throw in a Bible verse for that.

Originally posted by jmdewey60

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by jmdewey60

 

Now I understand the logic of how they are so dogmatic about making sure Jesus is not Son of God, but actually God.

No one here said Jesus is "not the Son of God". Jesus is the Son, He is not the Father and He is not the Holy Spirit. Are you purposely refusing to acknowledge we believe in a triune Godhead?

Well go ahead and explain what that is, then. Maybe you could clear up some of my misperceptions and by the way, it might be useful to like, throw in a Bible verse for that.

I don't have the time, going to work. But here is the best explanation of the Godhead I've come across to date.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
his comes from an event with no witnesses, between Jesus and the Devil, where Jesus quotes an OT verse, ". . worship the Lord only. . ."

I think I understand what you're saying now. I don't know that this supports your belief that Jesus didn't ask to be worshiped. Satan was asking Jesus to worship him. There were no requests to worship Jesus in this story. The devil was "me! me! me!" and Jesus rebuked him and said only God should be worshiped. The question of Jesus being God wasn't addressed here.

Originally posted by dbates

Originally posted by jmdewey60
his comes from an event with no witnesses, between Jesus and the Devil, where Jesus quotes an OT verse, ". . worship the Lord only. . ."

I think I understand what you're saying now. I don't know that this supports your belief that Jesus didn't ask to be worshiped. Satan was asking Jesus to worship him. There were no requests to worship Jesus in this story. The devil was "me! me! me!" and Jesus rebuked him and said only God should be worshiped. The question of Jesus being God wasn't addressed here.

Right, that's my point, that this episode does not define the entire Gospel as far what worship means.
There is a protocol in the UK where a princess or someone is addressed as Your Worship, or something, but it is not calling that person God.
The other thing I was pointing out in a different thread and will bring up now is this term, God the Son. First there is no such thing that I can find in the Bible. Second, that is still calling Jesus, God. Once you get to that point, there is no need for further discussion, as far as I am concerned.
Philippians 2:6 describes being God was not something to be grasped, but I would interpret it as not being something to cling to while making the transformation into being a man. Jesus fully accepted his current station.
My main question is, can we be good like Jesus? I would say, yes, based on his being like us. People who object to that seem to be the exact same people preaching free grace. The two things seem to go together. 1, Jesus was God so could not sin. 2, We can sin and still be saved. To me that is the path to destruction.

reply to post by NOTurTypical

. . .here is the best explanation of the Godhead I've come across to date

I stopped listening once the preacher described the entire Bible, including the NT, as Torah.