Something in Matthew and Luke has me puzzled

Originally posted by jmdewey60

Originally posted by XplanetX

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by XplanetX

 

You have just taken something that is very simple to understand and turned it into gobbledygook

A bit more complex than your one liner slogans you are fond of.
I suppose you never studied the NT.

I have spent a large part of my life studying old testament and new testament scripture.
If you have studied it, then you certainly do not understand it.
That much is clear.

If you did in fact study the NT you would know that it is not simple and is in fact rather complex and requires a lot of thought to understand.
Now do you just tell people to not look at the NT because it is too difficult and to just believe in your sloganed version of truth?

I don't mean any disrespect by asking this, but how old are you?

reply to post by XplanetX
I don't give my exact age out as a habit on the internet for security reasons but I could say mid to late fifties.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
Really? Dbates invented fundamental orthodox Christianity?? That's quite remarkable.

I'm actually a bit over 1,900 years old so yeah, pretty much made up the entire thing myself. Well to be honest there was a dude named Paul that was my secretary. He wrote a lot of it down for me but it was all pretty much my idea. Silly Paul, ever since he survived that snake bite he got this huge ego and started taking credit for nearly half the New Testament. I just let it slide cause you know like I always said, "Blessed are the meek".

Back to the subject, the temptations that offered Jesus the world was an attempt at making him take the easy way out. People should not be confused about the offer for the world. It was a valid offer. The Devil isn't a creature with hooves and horns. He's fantastically beautiful and powerful and was basically running. He has much to offer those that are willing to try short-cuts but always speaks in half-truths. He'll tell you the positive side of the deal but gloss over the negative aspects of the bargain.

reply to post by racasan

If Jesus is God and God made everything then how exactly can the devil tempt God with God’s own property?

That is an excellent question. How could this test on Jesus ever have any worth, if this is God in the flesh?

Firstly Satan is described as "a god" himself so he has considerable power and control, and enough temporary control of the earth that he could make this offer, and Jesus would know exactly what he means. The value of stealing Jesus away from God and interrupting the ransom, was worth giving up all he controlled, just to prove a point to God. He failed.

As for Jesus being God himself, this question proves he isn't, Satan can't tempt God, but he could tempt Jesus the Son of God. Thus the Trinity is once again proven to be a doctrine imported from paganism, in the 4th century, as Jesus predicted the the great apostasy was well under way.

reply to post by dbates

?

Are you one the sort who thinks jesus is god (or possible 1/3 of god?)


If so then I don’t get what you put here – to me it reads as satan out ranks god because he’s just so gosh darn handsome, but good old jesus was able to see past the devils charms and tricky offers some how

look its simple, If jesus is god then he made the earth, the devil, handsome – everything, so how could he be tempted by the devils offer?

this would be the same as a man been talked out of $50 by a sock puppet he has on his hand

Originally posted by dbates

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
Really? Dbates invented fundamental orthodox Christianity?? That's quite remarkable.

I'm actually a bit over 1,900 years old so yeah, pretty much made up the entire thing myself. Well to be honest there was a dude named Paul that was my secretary. He wrote a lot of it down for me but it was all pretty much my idea. Silly Paul, ever since he survived that snake bite he got this huge ego and started taking credit for nearly half the New Testament. I just let it slide cause you know like I always said, "Blessed are the meek".

Yeah, let Paul have the glory here on Earth, that's all wood, stubble and hay anyways. I wish I was closer to you so you could sign the inside cover of my Bible.

Back to the subject, the temptations that offered Jesus the world was an attempt at making him take the easy way out. People should not be confused about the offer for the world. It was a valid offer. The Devil isn't a creature with hooves and horns. He's fantastically beautiful and powerful and was basically running. He has much to offer those that are willing to try short-cuts but always speaks in half-truths. He'll tell you the positive side of the deal but gloss over the negative aspects of the bargain.

I've never heard you explanation of the three-fold temptation before, but I firmly agree and it was a fresh revelation, thanks for it. One thing also I've heard in the past is satan offered Christ the kingdom, the power and the glory without the cross. Another point to mention, is when Christ was offered all the nations of the world, He rebuked satan and said only God alone should we worship and serve, but He never challenged the statement that these were satan's to give to whomever he chose to.

Originally posted by racasan
reply to post by dbates

 

?

Are you one the sort who thinks jesus is god (or possible 1/3 of god?)


If so then I don’t get what you put here – to me it reads as satan out ranks god because he’s just so gosh darn handsome, but good old jesus was able to see past the devils charms and tricky offers some how

look its simple, If jesus is god then he made the earth, the devil, handsome – everything, so how could he be tempted by the devils offer?

this would be the same as a man been talked out of $50 by a sock puppet he has on his hand

Because Christ added humanity to His divinity when He incarnated. Not only was He fully God, but He also was fully human. He still had flesh that was temptable.

Originally posted by Blue_Jay33
reply to post by racasan

 

If Jesus is God and God made everything then how exactly can the devil tempt God with God’s own property?

As for Jesus being God himself, this question proves he isn't, Satan can't tempt God, but he could tempt Jesus the Son of God. Thus the Trinity is once again proven to be a doctrine imported from paganism, in the 4th century, as Jesus predicted the the great apostasy was well under way.

You've got history backwards..

"As the early church grew, Gnostics and other cults began teaching that Jesus was a created being, inferior to the Father. This came to a head in the fourth century when Arius, a popular preacher from Libya, persuaded many leaders that Jesus wasn’t fully God. Then in 325 A. D. at the Council of Nicaea, church leaders met to resolve the issue of whether Jesus is the Creator, or merely a creation.5 These church leaders overwhelmingly affirmed the long-held Christian conviction and New Testament teaching that Jesus is fully God.

Did the Apostles Believe Jesus was God?

"Arius was no stranger to controversy. According to another early historian (Sozomen), Alexander's predecessor Bishop Peter had earlier "cast him out of the church" because he disagreed with the way the bishop had handled a matter of church discipline and "could not be restrained in quietness."

So not being one to sit by quietly when he did not agree with his superiors, Arius "vigorously responded" to Alexander's sermon, accusing him publicly and to his face of the heresy of Sabellianism. Those were fighting words.

Sabellianism was a view of the Trinity that emphasized the oneness of God at the expense of the true distinction between God the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Also called modalism, it takes its name from its most notorious proponent, Sabellius. who tried to explain the three Persons of the Godhead as successive modes of being, not co-equal, co-existing realities. Sabellius was excommunicated for his rejection of the doctrine of the Trinity in A.D. 220— more than a century before the doctrine of the Trinity was "invented" by the Council of Nicea!"

Did Jesus Become God in A. D. 325?


Anyone and everyone are welcome to their own opinions of course, however no one is entitled to their own facts.

Originally posted by racasan
this would be the same as a man been talked out of $50 by a sock puppet he has on his hand

No, it's not that simple because God doesn't make sock-puppets. The beings are created to exist with their own will and desires. And yes God could just squish all resistance but I think he lets it play out as an example of what happens when the creation thinks it knows better than the creator. But wait, it gets even more strange that that...

To answer your first question I think (My hypothesis) is that Jesus is God's physical representation in the Universe so he can more easily interact with his creation. God, being a source of infinite power and being in something like the 11th dimension, can not be physically present inside of his creation without destroying it. The Bible clearly says (1 Timothy 6:16) you can't see god because he " lives in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see". Nothing living or not can be exposed to that kind of energy and keep it's atoms intact.

The first act of creation was Jesus and we're told in John and it's alluded to in many places in the Old Testament that Jesus actually created the Universe as an agent of God. Yes this is all hard to grasp and understand. Jesus isn't exactly God, but at the same time he is God. "I and my father are one". Two separate entities that have one mind and purpose. It may not even be that they are separate in powers, but merely separate and different in roles and functions that they play. For example, which is greater in your car, the engine and transmission that moves the car, or the car that holds the engine and transmission? Can you see the duality? It's not a perfect analogy but good because while one is the source of the power, the other is the executor and user of the power.

Now back to how the devil was able to hold the world as a possession.How is that possible if he is not the creator? Let's say were're people in a game called The Sims. What if the creator of the game made a Sim of himself and placed it into the game? Would that Sim be the same as the game creator? Yes and no. By placing himself in the game the creator has to follow the rules of the game. If this game had been created with a super powerful being that being would still have power within the structure of the game. Couldn't the creator just hack the game or make a patch that eliminated the issues with no effort? Sure, but that would take out some of the pleasure of having the game to begin with wouldn't it? Have you ever played a game where you had every cheat code and you could win instantly. Boring isn't it?

So Jesus created the Universe and established the rules and regulations on how things work. Now we get to the part where people say "God is either not all knowing, or he is part evil for allowing the devil to exist." I say the answer is neither. God is all powerful but perhaps he, as Jesus, wants to be surprised about how things turn out. God the father who is all knowing in something like the 11th dimension knows all, experiences all, and conceives of all possible outcomes at once. As Jesus however he can "experience" change and the joy of success but that only comes with the possibility of failure.

We are not just puppets. God cares for each single being and our joy he gathers pleasure from. If you could have anything you wanted instantly and knew everything, how would you obtain happiness? How would you experience joy or surprise? Only though the experiences of others. Have you ever seen a young child open a Christmas gift? Next time watch their parents. They know what's in the box so what do they get out of the opening of presents.The answer of course is that it's not what's in the box that matters. The important thing is the experience of watching the excitement and pleasure that the young child gets while finding out the surprise. The pleasure is experiencing life through their eyes. Read some of the NDE that people have and they all tell you when the were in the light they feel infinite love and acceptance. At that point they sort of understand the concept of shared joy.

So again, why does evil exist? In order to enjoy the experience of a child opening a present you have to give them the present which means giving them control of the outcome. God gives us control over the outcome of our actions so we can do what we want. There's nothing stopping a child from jumping up and down on a present and kicking it instead of opening it. You have to allow possible negative outcome or there is no enjoyment in the positive. We are not sock puppets. The devil isn't a sock puppet. He is a free agent of his own will.


I don't know if this explains anything or helps at all. I sort of rambled on and on but back to the point. Satan could have been the most powerful being created that does not share the mind of God. He probably was telling Jesus that he would withdraw his efforts from controlling the planet Earth if Jesus would worship him. I don't know how this all played out in his mind. He may not be able to conceive totally of what God is. Even if he was 1 million times more powerful than a human, what is that number or any number compared to infinity?

Let's not forget that humanity isn't the only one in the game. The devil convinced 1/3 of the angles to join his side. Part of this is being played out for their benefit and understanding as well. Each one is a totally separate entity with free will.

We're given enough knowledge to understand what we need to know. I honestly don't think we could comprehend the totality of what we're experiencing if it was in black and white in the Bible. It would be like us reading a book on quantum mechanics and physics while we were just learning to read. We could hear the words but not understand the concept of what it means. So for now, what we know is enough.

Okay, shutting up now....

reply to post by dbates


I like your analogies and can feel truth in your words...not that it means anything.

I posted this in another thread but I am not being challenged. I was wondering if you mind thinking this through with me...I honestly would like to hear your opinion on my thoughts...as crazy as they may sound.

In my opinion: It is the plan......as "time" is neither past, present, or future. There is a MASTER plan, if you will. When God "moved" and became aware he began to create, hence Light. His creation story for us does not mean nothing was created beforehand. The Angels were there at the "time" the Earth and Heavens were created. Genesis speaks of "We" (.not "I") created. In order to perfect in GOOD our spirits need to know BAD. I think this is the Ultimate Goal for the Creator we call God. To Perfect in Goodness and in the light of Love. This is how God experiences himself first hand the love not only for His creation but also for himself. As we do....so does He. We are to come here in this darkened Planet and experience the temptations of this world so we may better perfect as we cannot do that in the Light. There is no temptation and we cannot overcome anything in the Heavenly realm. Because his creation was termed, "Good" then so be it. We are all eventually going to bear the seed of good through reincarnation. I do not think it is such a human drama story. There is a plan and its a circle of life as we perfect in the will of God and not our own. Satan is a deceiving energy force that may over come souls spirits to the other side. This is where Hell resides. Eventually (death of flesh) your energy is either emotionally aware of the heavenly realm or it is emotionally aware of the hell realm. We can call on the Father and be saved though and this is what a non believer will eventually do. In the end there will only be a heavenly realm. This is the Master plan. Ok....so there is my opinion of it as crazy as it may sound to some. ETA: Also I want to add that I believe Satan to be a helper for the Master plan...He is needed in the plan so we may perfect quicker in the realm of time.....for Gods will.

This is what I wrote in the other thread......tell me your thoughts in relation to mine.

I still like my concept better. I mean....why do so many wish to dramatize God and His Master plan? It is all quite simple. ALL that is knows ALL.The Plan is a "good" plan and its one that MUST take place so Good will know bad and be able to observe and experiences the difference in this realm of "Time" and be able to perfect in Good! Lucifer is an Angel who took on a role for God and all of us to perfect in Gods will and not ours. He shows us we are easily deceived and this is not wanted in the Heavenly realm. Only goodness can be in that realm. On this planet though we are allowed to perfect in "time" which allows the soul a quicker advancement for the spirit to know Good out of their wrong doings. We feel and sense this when we do something wrong. We know it and try to learn from it (mistake) and perfect on it as to not do it again. We chose to come here and the Angels are indeed non- human and never will be. They were here when we were created and they guide us daily to perfect in the goodness of our free will and that of Gods Master plan. This plan has been set in motion and we continue to come back to perfect in the will of God. Our will is the same when we are not on this Planet. When we are back home our will is that of Gods. To perfect in goodness and light. Its just there is a much slower process as we are always in the light there. Only good prevails. Why can it not be that simple?? Just askin....please no one get mad. This is merely my perception of the Word.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Thank you for reading and pondering this with me.

Jenn

reply to post by dbates

The first act of creation was Jesus and we're told in John and it's alluded to in many places in the Old Testament that Jesus actually created the Universe as an agent of God.

The Creator God, makes a creator god as an avatar within the universe, while the Creator God sits outside of the universe the avatar is working in?
So no worship of God is possible, since practically speaking, none exists, at least not in this universe?
Or, the Creator God creates an idol to be placed in the world for people to worship?
So, God commands us to be idolaters?
So, it looks like you have invented for yourself a system of idolatry.
Why does Revelation have an angel in the air, calling out "Worship Him who created the Earth!"?
Just amend it to read, And I saw an angel in the midst of heaven cry out, "Worship, but not in a physical sort of way, He, well not really a he, but just a diffuse sort of entity which does not have any connection to the universe in the least, who created, not really created, but thought about it, heaven and earth!"
Or we, being gifted with proper interpretive insight, just know to add that all in without even having to think about it?

Originally posted by jmdewey60
So no worship of God is possible, since practically speaking, none exists, at least not in this universe?

Why would an all-knowing God need to be in this Universe to realize if you were worshiping it? God isn't expelled from the Universe, just chooses not to reveal himself directly here. At any rate we have God's son here so all communication can be routed via that method if you choose and Jesus can know all your thoughts because God knows all and they can share the same thoughts.

What happens if you use the "Exit" door to walk into Wal-Mart instead of the "Entrance" door? It doesn't matter because you can get in either way. The labels on the door are just for your convenience. Your use of either door doesn't change the reality of what happens when you walk though it. It's equally silly to worry about praying to God or praying to Jesus.

reply to post by NOTurTypical

Anyone and everyone are welcome to their own opinions of course, however no one is entitled to their own facts.

And neither are you

Although there is much debate as to whether the beliefs of the Apostles were merely articulated and explained in the Trinitarian Creeds, or were corrupted and replaced with new beliefs, all scholars recognize that the Creeds themselves were created in reaction to disagreements over the nature of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. These controversies, however, were great and many, and took many centuries to be resolved. Of these controversies, the most significant developments were articulated in the first four centuries by the Church Fathers in reaction to Adoptionism, Sabellianism, and Arianism. Adoptionism was the belief that Jesus was an ordinary man, born of Joseph and Mary, who became the Christ and Son of God at his baptism. In 269, the Synods of Antioch condemned Paul of Samosata for his Adoptionist theology, and also condemned the term "homoousios" in the sense he used it. Sabellianism taught that the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are aspects of how humanity has interacted with or experienced God. In the role of the Father, God is the provider and creator of all. In the role of the Son, God is manifested in the flesh as a human, in order to bring about the salvation of mankind. In the role of the Holy Spirit, God manifests himself from heaven through his actions on the earth and within the lives of Christians. This view was rejected as heresy by the Ecumenical Councils. Arianism, which was coming into prominence during the 4th century, taught that the Father was a superior and distinct being from the Son, and that the Son was a superior and distinct being from the Holy Spirit. In 325, the Council of Nicaea adopted a term for the relationship between the Father and the Son that from then on was seen as the hallmark of orthodoxy; it declared that the Son is "of the same being" (ὁμοούσιος) as the Father. This was further developed into the formula "three persons, one being".
Saint Athanasius, who was a participant in the Council, stated that the bishops were forced to use this terminology, which is not found in Scripture, because the Biblical phrases that they would have preferred to use were claimed by the Arians to be capable of being interpreted in what the bishops considered to be a heretical sense.They therefore "commandeered the non-scriptural term homoousios ('of the same being') to safeguard the essential relation of the Son to the Father that had been denied by Arius."

Why anybody would allow some apostates from the 4th century decide theology for us is beyond me.
I have thoroughly researched this and know now the truth of this matter.

reply to post by dbates

Why would an all-knowing God need to be in this Universe to realize if you were worshiping it? God isn't expelled from the Universe, just chooses not to reveal himself directly here.

There is still no God, from the viewpoint of anyone who exists, seeing how none of us is God.
The problem has nothing to do with what God knows.
So your point is we are to worship a thing which He designates as an object of worship and don't be thinking about an actual God.
This is why I said your religion has nothing to do with the Bible or Christianity.
The Bible says there will be no temple and that Jesus and God will dwell with us.
Now I am not saying don't invent your own religion.
You did say it was a theory so I'm not complaining, just working through it.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
So your point is we are to worship a thing which He designates as an object of worship and don't be thinking about an actual God.

We're having some kind of disconnect. I didn't think I ever insinuated anything but that the worship of Jesus or God was just. I don't advocate the worship of anything else. That was one of the key points Jesus made that was pointed out in the original post. We're just to worship God.

Are you saying that the worship of Jesus is idolatry?

Originally posted by dbates

Originally posted by jmdewey60
So your point is we are to worship a thing which He designates as an object of worship and don't be thinking about an actual God.

We're having some kind of disconnect. I didn't think I ever insinuated anything but that the worship of Jesus or God was just. I don't advocate the worship of anything else. That was one of the key points Jesus made that was pointed out in the original post. We're just to worship God.

Are you saying that the worship of Jesus is idolatry?

You said he was created.
I don't know what more I need to say.
You don't think that fits the definition?
Or have you redefined idolatry to things make in a specific way, such as carved with a chisel?
For example American Idol, should be renamed American Worshipful.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
You said he was created.

Jesus had no beginning but that's outside of our concept of thinking. I just meant with respect to the appearance in this Universe. From God's perspective there has always been a Son but now we're getting into an area we have no basis for. All acts performed outside of our time-dimension-universe is beyond our concept to really comprehend. The Universe is a static picture to God so all this talk of "In the beginning" is just a reference for our point of view.

He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.

Colossians 1:15-17

Again, we see things like "firstborn" and "before all things" but that's just a reference for us. It's not as if Jesus wasn't one day and then was the next. There is no such concept such as before or after to God.

reply to post by dbates


Time is an interestingly different thing to God, it was irrelevant to him for all eternity looking backwards.
For example 999 Trillion years ago what was God doing? The physical universe never existed, nothing existed.
Then he purposed to create his Son, and we are not sure how long they spent alone together, then he created the angels, then the creation of the physical universe began, and eventually our sun and earth. That was all billions of years ago.

Time was created with the very first marker of an event, Jesus Christ creation. Time never existed in humans terms before that.

reply to post by dbates


Actually dbates, you're correct on everything except the "firstborn" reference. To Hebrews this means "chief born", or "greatest born". It's a common Hebraism. Example: David was called firstborn, yet he was the youngest son of Jesse. Jesus was the greatest born of all creation, that considers His incarnation only, He had always existed eternally with the Father and the Holy Spirit.

reply to post by Blue_Jay33


The Son was never created, He incarnated, but He was never a part of creation, He is eternal.