Zionist Christianity - a cautionary tale

reply to post by Mividau
I wasn't ignoring you, for some reason I did not get the PM alert untill 24 hrs after you sent it.

reply to post by halfoldman

focus on Bob, and where his original error lies.

And I'll take the rest of your post as written. Bob is presented as a man in the story, yet he also represents a growing percentage of the world's population. So helping Bob is of some consequence.

The constant change, or flux of reality, gives lie to the notion of static reality. Memory itself is a series, moment by moment, of remembering what you remembered, (I heard that on the radio).

the wrong things for the right reasons.
The early Buddhists understood this very well.
To paraphrase: if you meet God or Buddha on the way to enlightenment, you must surely kill Him.
. . .
cautionary rather than true.

And yet, in this path to enlightenment, which by nature is a moving target, it is proper to kill a static god or Buddha, specifically one which dwells on a static page, within a static book, enshrined(entombed) forever. Especially important when words like "everlasting", "never changing", "for all generations" are the links of the chain that hold the demon fast. Poor static demon crying, "please, free me! This wasn't my idea!"

Did Jesus free the demon? No.

MT 5:17 "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

Whether there is a stone temple made by human hands with a demon trapped or willingly inside, is of secondary importance, as long as there is a book that people call "the everlasting, unchanging, inerrant word of god."

Do I mean then, book burnings? By no means. Put the book on the shelf alongside The Theogony of Hesiod or Ovid's Metamorphoses or The Epic of Gilgamesh. These gods and heroes live in the mythologies, they can retire when you set the book down. Their limited existences are not onerous, to themselves or to others.

So we could try and tell Bob that he is wrong, and wasting his money.
. . .
So, if Bob could be held to a higher standard, then his heart would follow his behavior.

Indeed, he already has a reference close at hand. Instead of reading only Psalm 2 and Ezekiel and 2Thess and Revelation, maybe if he took a look in the gospels sometimes.

MT 5:43 "You have heard that it was said, `Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' 44 But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47 And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

I still hold an Enlightenment hope for humanity.

As do I.

I agree, although I don't think that because some people misuse or misinterpret a book (or stuff that isn't even in that book, but which the demoniacs imply is there) doesn't mean we should dismiss the Bible or the rich Christian faith and heritage.
Those Christian Zionists may have big mouths, but they probably don't even represent 5% of the Christian family.

The greatest law is true for all theistic faiths, and it is in the Bible:
"Love the Lord your God with all your heart ..."

Forgiveness if this is not a direct reply, but I thought I'd mention that for my Christian friends and family.
Amazing Grace - Bagpipes:

reply to post by halfoldman
When I think of the mind of the apocalyptics, I think of the character Dr. Strangelove.
People not wanting to have Armageddon in our lifetime may do well to use a normal voice but in large numbers to counter the small number of loud voices.

reply to post by halfoldman

Those Christian Zionists may have big mouths, but they probably don't even represent 5% of the Christian family.

They happen to be 40% of American Christians, and growing. The political representation is about 70%, a clear majority share, in the country that spends half of the world's military budget. So Zionist Christians in effect, control half of the military of the world. Add that to Zionist Christian mercenary (I mean defense contractor) Corporations, that's a lot of fire power there.

doesn't mean we should dismiss the Bible or the rich Christian faith and heritage.

I do read the Bible a tad bit more than Hesiod and Ovid, actually.

The greatest law is true for all theistic faiths, and it is in the Bible.
"Love the Lord your God with all your heart ..."

That depends on what the word Lord is coming from. In the OT, it is YHWH. Theists aren't all Yahwists. Yahwists are Yahwists.
If Lord is taken as Lord, (owner) I don't have too much trouble with hearing it, but I still don't say it, because of the connotation.

I'm not quite sure who you are referring to as demoniacs.

reply to post by pthena

I'd say maybe 40% of American Christians may follow a fundamentalist/evangelical stream, but few of them will actually be funding members of a Christian Zionist organization.
A lot of pastors complain that only 20% of their congregations pay tithes, let alone give consistent money for the temple in Israel.
Of course everybody comes from their part of the world, and I cannot say for sure what goes on in the US, but I'd think that people like Bob are a minority.
Getting people to nod along is one thing; getting them to pay money is quite another.

Do we have statistics on this?
A few years back in SA one could define fundamentalist Christianity pretty clearly.
Now they have splintered into loose groups and mega-churches that would differ widely on this topic.
The only major Christian Zionist I can think of right now is John Hagee.
It certainly doesn't represent Joel Osteen.
The rest pay some lip-service, but they only collect money for themselves.

So, one would really need statistics, because I doubt 40% of US Christians are Bob.

By demoniacs I mean the people who corrupt religion, such as the character in the OP who seduces and kills Bob.
I like that term, because certain people have a wicked disposition, and they are like the demons of Christian theology incarnated in flesh. Religious people tend to focus only on demons floating about like ghosts, and that detracts from the demoniacs taking advantage of them through a religious system that should be full of love, and a mental refuge for everyone.
So the term "demoniac" reminds me that evil does sometimes come in flesh and blood.

reply to post by jmdewey60

People not wanting to have Armageddon in our lifetime may do well to use a normal voice but in large numbers to counter the small number of loud voices.

Just to demonstrate the level of religious/political madness in America. Here is a clipping from the J Street email.

Glenn Beck doesn't speak for me
Carinne Luck, J Street

He has compared Reform Judaism to radical Islam[1]. He has likened the victims of the recent tragedy in Oslo to Hitler Youth[2]. And he has warned that those who divide Israel – i.e., support a two-state solution – will face God’s wrath[3].

Now Glenn Beck tells us he’s helping Israel and reaching out to Jews by bringing his message to a self-proclaimed Rally to Restore Courage in Jerusalem in two weeks?!

Are you as shocked and appalled as I am at the thought of Glenn Beck and 20,000 of his followers descending on Jerusalem preaching against the two-state solution?
. . .
It’s shocking enough that some in Israel’s Knesset are welcoming Beck as a friend of Israel. It’s even more shocking that in this country some political figures think they’re being “pro-Israel” by joining Beck in this crazy venture.

Here's the madness. Beck's a Mormon. Every Mormon missionary I've met in the last 5 years watch and listen to him religiously. The only official Zionism of Mormons is that Zion is in the US, Illinois, I think. They may just change their official doctrine to so-called Jewish state Zionism to be on the winning side.

How to describe that: American Nationalist Zionists joining the Zion Zionists.

reply to post by halfoldman
Some estimates:

Christian Zionism: The new heresy that sways America
Estimates as to the size of the movement as a whole vary considerably. While critics like Crowley claim, ‘At least one out of every 10 Americans is a devotee’, that is between ‘25 to 30 million’, Christian Zionists such as Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell claim weekly access to 100 million sympathetic Americans.[4] What ever the true figure, all are agreed, that number that is growing in size and influence.[5] They are led by 80,000 fundamentalist pastors and clergy, their views disseminated by 1,000 local Christian radio stations as well as 100 Christian TV stations.[6] Doug Kreiger lists over 250 pro-Israeli organisations founded in the 1980s alone.[7]

The Unity Coalition for Israel, for example, which is the largest, brings together 200 different Jewish and Christian Zionist organisations including the International Christian Embassy, Christian Friends of Israel and Bridges for Peace. They claim a support base of 40 million active members.[8] These organisations make up a broad coalition which not only helps keep Sharon’s racist government in power and is also, as we shall see, helping to shape the aggressive stance of US foreign policy in the Middle East today.

That was 2004. The US population is just over 300 million. and 80,000 are preachers, preaching it. Bob is pretty big in the US. All those people at the Rick Perry stadium show of non-separation of politics and religion the other day in Texas are all Bob.

Yeah but for now that's all so inconclusive.
Your quote actually starts out by stating that the estimates are unclear.
There were certain bumper years for fundamentalism, like the Moral Majority movement in the 1980's, or under Bush around 2004.
All that is dated, and even then it led to nothing.
Even at those peaks we still have no given info on how many people actually paid and specifically funded those organizations.
Because evangelical meetings have so many diverse topics, it is also hard to say who came just to hear about the temple and the red heifers.
I used to see a lot of it on TBN, but now it's not shown at all.
Nevertheless, even if a minority believe this crap, it is still significant.

reply to post by halfoldman

Yeah but for now that's all so inconclusive.

I give you the Christ.

On the night that he was betrayed,
He took bread and broke it,
and said, "This is my body, which is broken for you.
Do this, in remembrance of me.

In the same way, He took the cup, and said,
"This cup is the new covenant in my blood;
do this, whenever you drink it, in remembrance of me:

Whenever you eat this bread, and drink this cup
you proclaim the Lords death until he comes.
-------------------------------------------------
The woman cried, "They've taken my Lord, and I don't know where they've put him."
I say, "Come, I have bread and drink."
The man asks, "Spare some change?"
I say, "Yes, and bread and drink"

For this is the substance of Christ. We see, we feel, we share.
That's what Jesus gave to us instead of being Messiah.

What is Messiah? It is that man in Psalm 2 sitting on a throne, ruling the world with an iron scepter.
Looks like Solomon, with the power to enslave, build stone palaces and stone temple with slave labor.
Collects his 666 talents of gold from tributary nations.
Slaughter 1,000s of animals in order to get a single dark demon into the temple.
When he died, the kingdom fell apart.

I will take and share Christ with all. I don't recommend the Messiah model.

Your Krishna friend was right: no rapture required for spiritual advancement.

[EDITED TO ADD: EACH LINK IS TO THE TEXT DIRECTLY ABOVE ITS WEB PAGE. SORRY I CANT GET THE EX-TEXT DOWN]

I scoured the web. Honestly there isn't alot about exact numbers.
But picked up a few tid bits that may surprise you.

There are between 25 to 30 million Christian Zionists in America, far more than the number of Jewish Zionists. Sizer affirms that Christian Zionism is the fastest growing cult -- yes, cult -- in the U.S.

Link to above web page

FrontPageMagazine.com | Monday, December 15, 2008
The National Council of Churches (NCC), which will never specifically criticize any radical Islamist movements no matter how murderous, has found itself concerned about Christian Zionists in America. In fact, according to the NCC, Christian Zionist support for Israel is the main stumbling block to tranquility in the Middle East. The threat posed by these Christian zealots is so worrisome that the NCC has just released a special brochure called “Why We Should Be Concerned About Christian Zionism” to warn its 35 member denominations.

Link to above web page


[ 21/07/2011 - 10:18 AM ]
As many as 5000 Christian Zionists gathered this week at the Convention Center in Washington, D.C. for the annual conference of the organization CUFI, Christians United For Israel.

Israeli Prime Minister Benyamin Netanyahu addressed the evangelical conference, telling the huge audience that "when you support Israel, you don’t have to choose between your interests and your values, you get both.."
“If the US Administration forces Israel to divide Jerusalem – God will turn his back to the United States of America. The G-d of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob is watching America,” Hagee continued. “Mister President, go tell Russia and the Chinese what to do.”


Link to above web page

By Ruth King on July 26th, 2010

Since 2006, CUFI has held hundreds of events nationwide, raising $43 million for humanitarian work (including that of Migdal Ohr in Galilee which serves disadvantaged youth and the Kiryat Yam absorption center for Ethiopian Jews) and inspiring Christian support for the Jewish state. Pastor Scott Thomas of Lakeland, Florida, explained that thousands have rediscovered the “Judeo part of our faith.” He recalled a Tampa Night for Israel that raised money for flak jackets to protect IDF troops in Tiberius, and a night in Pensacola that bought a bomb shelter for residents of Sderot, the small town on the receiving end of rockets launched by Hamas from Gaza.

Link to above web page


It's not just the blessings and curses drawn from Genesis 12:3 that motivate Christian Zionists, however, although it's a powerful bludgeon. Many -- polls show a clear majority -- of American evangelicals believe the state of Israel is the fulfillment of God's plan for the Second Coming that they believe is laid out in the Bible.
A 2003 Pew poll found that 63% of white evangelicals believe that Israel fulfills biblical prophecy about the Second Coming, far more than any other religious group. And a 2008 Pew survey of Pentecostalism found "also finds that sympathy toward Israel, common among evangelical Christians in the United States, is generally more common among pentecostals" than other Christians.

Link to above web page

And many billions of dollars in foriegn aid lost every year...I guess in this way we could look at Israel as one really big church: be generous when the plate comes around! God needs our money to be happy. [Sorry found this quote about CZ's & laughed]

Now as I was scouring the web I was finding that in America we dont have a choice weather to support
it or not. Our tax dollars are tied up into this.

How many evangelical Christians are there in America?

About 2,154,000.

There are about 2,154,000 evangelical/born again Christians in America as of 2008. This is according to the 2010 Statistical Abstract of the U.S. Census Bureau, which sourced its data from the American Religious Identification Survey (ARIS) 2008. This number reflects an almost two-fold increase in the number of evangelical/born-again Christians since 2001.

The other problem I am finding is alot of CZ's do not strictly classify theirselve's as this.
So they are members of other denomination's.Its kinda like the baptism arguement.
ie Full submerssion vs. Partial.

So either way the numbers are rising and the movement dont need donations.
American tax payers are covering it. Which is bothering me a bit.

LOTZA LUV

reply to post by Mividau
Thank you for your hard work.

I've done it before. Hard numbers and statistics are secondary. "Is 20 million alot, or is 50 million closer to alot."

As you have discovered, Americans individually have no choice. Vast percentage of politicians have taken the pledge, "to support the Jewish state of Israel no matter what" and that support is determined by Knesset, passed through AIPAC to US politicians. US public is left out of the loop.

I think the poll will never be taken in the US that looks like this.

Poll for Zion - check the applicable
1) I believe Jews are God's chosen people
2) I believe the current state of Israel to be the fulfillment of Bible prophecy.
3) I donate money for a temple to be built
4) I believe the Evil One will sit in the above mentioned temple. That's why I support it.
5) I donate money for Humanitarian causes in Israel
6) I understand that "Humanitarian" includes the ethnic cleansing of Greater Israel.
7) By that, I understand that there is no Palestine, never was, and "Palestinians" have no right to exist.
8) By no "right to exist" I understand these so called people should go away, or die, or go away and die.
9) All of the above.

No, that poll will not be taken in America, it's a little too revealing.

Thanx again for the work you put in.

reply to post by pthena


You're welcome, you're poll basicaly just showed what I saw.
I guess I also noticed that other countries view zionists as a jihad.
So after seeing what you were trying to say, ummm
Bob's going to hell, if there is one lol.

Off topic, I found out Obama promises to strengthing relations with israel.

LOTZA LUV PT

reply to post by Mividau

Bob's going to hell, if there is one lol.

You may want to read my presenting of the Christ in a couple of posts ahead.
My personal religion is a work in progress.
Now that I have presented the Christ, I remember what reincarnation is.

Start with the individual life. The person's experiences, decisions, choices, and actions make the person.
When that person dies, that person has ended. The consequences of the actions continue on with the people affected, sometimes for generations to come.

The spirit of the person is an element of the person, just as a calcium molecule. That calcium molecule may someday be part of another person. That new person with the molecule is not the old ended person, but a new distinct individual. The old is gone. So it is with the spirit. The new person is not the old person, but does inherit from the old, whether good or bad.

The actions and life of the present being have no consequence for that person who dies, it's over, ended. What good the person did helps the new person, and not the old. What bad the person did does not hurt the old but the new.

The Christ is a special case. His spirit does not directly get recycled but remains forever to be shared in by all. It does not get used up, but is refreshed by each passing life. There is a balance. As a shaman, it is my job to monitor the balance. ebb and flow. for bad is not allowed, good and helpful only. The times of depletion occur in times of greatest religious revival. For religious revivals are selfish by nature.

Example: In the time of Josiah the king of Judah, the greatest religious revival in history of Israel occurred. All the ceremonies performed perfectly according to Torah, etc, everything just right. The prophet Jeremiah, after observing this, responded, and I paraphrase: "My people are suffering from a mortal wound.. This .. this tiny little bandage, it is nothing to the enormity of the hemorrhage."

The hell of Bob is not the hell he experiences himself. Bob is dead. The hell of Bob, is the hell others are suffering and will suffer by his actions, and the poor soul who inherits his spirit.

Jesus, following the example of the Father(a title for the ground of our being) emptied himself, poured himself out for the benefit of all. He no longer is a discreet individual. Neither is the Father. They live in us and with us for as long as we live.

This is my religion. To share Christ. I wrote it up today. It will probably be good to me without modification for some years, just a guess, how would I know. It speaks of long periods of time, but the wording may change at any moment. It is not sacred arrangement of words. That is nothing. The ever moving spirit is all that matters.

Christ be with you.

reply to post by pthena


LOL, I agree with you.
Which is why I said if hell exsist's.

As you I am ever evolveing. You much better then me though.
Sometime's I think that just maybe, this world is hell.
That in reincarnation, Our flesh is a filtering system to get all impurities out.
ie anything that is dark in us.But unlike most orthodox christians.
I see us all connected through the spirit.That what we do to other's we actually do to ourselve's.
Which Jesus did teach.

For me the bad thing about the BOB equation. That everyone seem's to forget.
Or doesnt want to own up to. Is that we are at just as much fault as him.
Because we are not stopping it. To ignore is to condone it. Who is worst the one that pulls
the trigger or those who allow it? I dont believe doing it in the name of GOD is a free pass either.

Those who call the CZ's a terrorist's group is right. If they think by killing people they are
GOD's instrument. They really need to compare their theory of GOD to JESUS. They are
not of the same GOD. [Which btw PT thxs for the wake up LOL]

But that is just my theory on the whole problem we got going now.

LOTZA LUV

reply to post by Mividau

To ignore is to condone it. Who is worst the one that pulls
the trigger or those who allow it? I dont believe doing it in the name of GOD is a free pass either.

I'm not really ignoring it, hence, this very thread. I actually do write letters to my congressman and senators. My one voice however carries little weight, not backed up with tons of cash for reelection campaigns. At least on ATS thinking people can take note.

Bottom line is that people should decide the fate and outcome for the world, not money.

If they think by killing people they are
GOD's instrument. They really need to compare their theory of GOD to JESUS.

JN 16:1 "All this I have told you so that you will not go astray. 2 They will put you out of the synagogue; in fact, a time is coming when anyone who kills you will think he is offering a service to God. 3 They will do such things because they have not known the Father or me.

I think sometimes that the god of people's imagination, is the 12 step god, like AA. "God is the higher power totally concerned with me personally so that I can stop drinking" "God therefore is my helper, servant, slave, lackey." It's all about me, me, me.

That's not God or Jesus, obviously.

I'm not really ignoring it, hence, this very thread. I actually do write letters to my congressman and senators. My one voice however carries little weight, not backed up with tons of cash for reelection campaigns. At least on ATS thinking people can take note.

Not you, me I am very ashamed of myself that I had no idea and the law makers.
That decided to give our money away so that this can happen.

Bottom line is that people should decide the fate and outcome for the world, not money.

Absolutely, Honestly we should stop giving it the power that it has. Its not moneys fault.
Its ours for giveing it its worth and power. We have turned it into an idol. (society in general)
Its all a choice and collectively we have choosen.

JN 16:1 "All this I have told you so that you will not go astray. 2 They will put you out of the synagogue; in fact, a time is coming when anyone who kills you will think he is offering a service to God. 3 They will do such things because they have not known the Father or me.

I think sometimes that the god of people's imagination, is the 12 step god, like AA. "God is the higher power totally concerned with me personally so that I can stop drinking" "God therefore is my helper, servant, slave, lackey." It's all about me, me, me.

That's not God or Jesus, obviously.

Yeah its definetly not a you're will, you're way type of situation.
GOD is all about my will, my way situation.

But I am slowly starting to discover the true GOD that sent Jesus.
Which is not the old testament GOD of the CZ's. (thxs 2 JM for explaing dispensationlists)
As always you're right.

LOTZA LUV

reply to post by pthena


Bob is going to go to the same place everyone goes to. God is, and God is love. Love covers all, forgives all and doesn't hold on to grudges.

Pthena: "That's the philosophical way of explaining it. The Pagan way is to look up at the blue sky and say, "My God"

Could you say, simplified that means "God is?"
God is the sky, God is the plants, God is the trees, God is spirit, God is energy, God is?

reply to post by Perplexedandconfused
So that's a universal thumbs up for Bob and all.

Could you say, simplified that means "God is?"
God is the sky, God is the plants, God is the trees, God is spirit, God is energy, God is?

More of a panentheism than a pantheism, as "in whom we live and breathe, and have our being." The sky is visible representation of that relationship. Sky instead of temple or statue or cross around the neck.

reply to post by pthena


Thank-you for your response Pthena. The term panentheism is new to me.

From what I read, if I am understanding correctly, Panentheism is being all in God, a creator who is greater than everything and pantheism is God is the universe with no creator or personal God?

Books by authors Walter Starcke and Joel Goldsmith?