Zionist Christianity - a cautionary tale

reply to post by ManOfGod267
Keep your eyes open. Most politicians interpret Rand different than I do, I've only read her fiction though. People try to use people, and often succeed. Fact of life, I'm afraid. Good hunting!

reply to post by pthena


I am so sorry, I left you with a hot mess LOL.
I follow Jesus, thats about as far as it goes.
I am a very spiritual person, as we all are.

My problem is after reading the bible in its entirety.
It just doest add up. First as you and JM showed me.
There seems to be 2 different spritual beings given orders.

Then you got pauline doctorine in the NT which is against what Jesus said and did.
So I am trying to get to the heart of the truth.

About the Jahovahs witnesses, Same here. They've been trying to convert me for years.
Me and One have become pretty good friends. I may not be able to argue my point on this site
very well but I can in person. What I do like about them are the same things as you.
What I dont like is you cant claim tobe against the catholic religion. When you still preach
pauline doctorine. Except for the holy trinity and holidays. Its the same exact thing

So I am now on a spiritual journey. As each one of us seem's to take.

LOTZA LUV,
Why athiest PT?

reply to post by Mividau

Why athiest PT?

From the Secret Book of John, which I first read last night. The ultimate "ground of our being", as the existentialist would say, is beyond our knowing or comprehension.

If that is the case, as I firmly believe, then we can only understand the parts that have to do with us personally, as individuals. The best place to look would be in our own sphere of existence.

JN 3:5 Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. 6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. 7 You should not be surprised at my saying, `You must be born again.' 8 The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit."
. . .
12 I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things?

Even one born of the spirit cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. Should we pretend to know? That would be to invent a religion. Once invented, the religion presumes to tell others. What you end up with is the big religious mess we have today. How did Jesus put it? "Blind leading the blind"

That last verse I quoted: If you hear something from Jesus, should you pretend you understand it?

Paul, quite frankly, did invent a religion. He may have understood some things. Take his words as you would the words of some one posting on a forum; keep what seems good to you, discard what doesn't. Pretty simple actually.

In practical terms: I have no more to teach about the ultimate ground of being than does an atheist, or deist, or agnostic. Honesty is of more value than presumption. Presumption blinds.

reply to post by pthena


Since you asked here is my explanation of the curse of Malachi.

To start with the verses in question.

Malachi 4
5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:
6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.

Why all the fuss about the Prophet?

Malachi 3
1 Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the LORD, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts.

The job of Messiah is supposed to be a 2 man possibly 3 man job. Zechariah describes the future temple as housing God and his 2 immediate subordinates who are described as the Branches. To put it simply 2000 years ago they killed a branch. No wonder Jesus Christ flipped out on them at the time.

Matthew 17
10 And his disciples asked him, saying, Why then say the scribes that Elias must first come?
11 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things.
12 But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them.
13 Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist.

When Herod killed John the Baptist he triggered this curse. Then it just a matter of looking it up and figuring out the details. And I already did the hard work so here is the explanation of it.

Curses under Judaism have to be referred back to Leviticus and Deuteronomy. Specifically Leviticus 26. The agreement made by God with the descendants of Israel during their wandering in the desert for 40 years. Specifically it details the benefits of complying with the agreement and the penalties for disobeying.

The ultimate penalties are the destruction of your cities and country and death and slavery of your people.

Then you need to find the declaration of the curse. I found it in the book of Hosea. The entire book is about the curse but here it is condensed into a couple of verses.

Hosea 3
4 For the children of Israel shall abide many days without a king, and without a prince, and without a sacrifice, and without an image, and without an ephod, and without teraphim:
5 Afterward shall the children of Israel return, and seek the LORD their God, and David their king; and shall fear the LORD and his goodness in the latter days.

Hosea 5
3 I know Ephraim, and Israel is not hid from me: for now, O Ephraim, thou committest whoredom, and Israel is defiled.
2 Therefore will I be unto Ephraim as a moth, and to the house of Judah as rottenness.
13 When Ephraim saw his sickness, and Judah saw his wound, then went Ephraim to the Assyrian, and sent to king Jareb: yet could he not heal you, nor cure you of your wound.
14 For I will be unto Ephraim as a lion, and as a young lion to the house of Judah: I, even I, will tear and go away; I will take away, and none shall rescue him.
15 I will go and return to my place, till they acknowledge their offence, and seek my face: in their affliction they will seek me early.

Hosea 13
6 According to their pasture, so were they filled; they were filled, and their heart was exalted; therefore have they forgotten me.
7 Therefore I will be unto them as a lion: as a leopard by the way will I observe them:
8 I will meet them as a bear that is bereaved of her whelps, and will rend the caul of their heart, and there will I devour them like a lion: the wild beast shall tear them.
9 O Israel, thou hast destroyed thyself; but in me is thine help.
10 I will be thy king: where is any other that may save thee in all thy cities? and thy judges of whom thou saidst, Give me a king and princes?
11 I gave thee a king in mine anger, and took him away in my wrath.


And that is the declaration of the curse. Here is verse with the time frame. And remember per 2nd Peter 3-8 and Psalms 90-4 those days are thousand year periods of time.

Hosea 6
1 Come, and let us return unto the LORD: for he hath torn, and he will heal us; he hath smitten, and he will bind us up.
2 After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight.

The Jews and Israelites of the first century AD were slapped with a 2000 year top level Leviticus 26 curse. To be followed by a thousand year "day of Jezreel". This day of Jezreel after looking at it is probably the Millennium of Revelation 20 by a different name.

reply to post by ntech

Zechariah describes the future temple as housing God and his 2 immediate subordinates who are described as the Branches.

Zechariah describes the temple that Zarubbabel had already started building, as in not yet completed.

ZEC 4:8 Then the word of the LORD came to me: 9 "The hands of Zerubbabel have laid the foundation of this temple; his hands will also complete it. Then you will know that the LORD Almighty has sent me to you.

ZEC 3:1 Then he showed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the LORD, and Satan standing at his right side to accuse him. 2 The LORD said to Satan, "The LORD rebuke you, Satan! The LORD, who has chosen Jerusalem, rebuke you! Is not this man a burning stick snatched from the fire?"

Are these the one's? Joshua, Angel of YHWH, Satan, YHWH

When Herod killed John the Baptist he triggered this curse.

I spent a few years from 2004 trying to bring the Elijah message. I saw it as nothing short of uniting all Abraham's descendants. I failed.

There is evidence from the gospels that Jesus was attempting to bring the 12 tribes of Israel into unity, such as the twelve disciples sitting on 12 thrones judging the 12 tribes, also his heart felt mission to seek out the lost sheep of Israel. He failed, and I'm pretty sure he was aware of that failure.

The curse did occur when the Roman armies swept through. Why would you look for more curses without end? I don't understand the motive here.

reply to post by ntech

Again I say. The condition of the Jews is a temporary condition that will end soon. The covenant of Leviticus 26 is a binding legal agreement.

I have no idea what you are talking about.
Nice little slogan you got there, "binding legal contract" does it mean anything?
I am not a Jew, but a Christian. The Christians have something called the New Testament where it explains how those old promises were fulfilled in Jesus. I will help you out by quoting some of it to familiarize you with the concept.

“Blessed be the Lord God of Israel,
because he has come to help and has redeemed his people.

For he has raised up a horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David,
as he spoke through the mouth of his holy prophets from long ago,
that we should be saved from our enemies,
and from the hand of all who hate us.

He has done this to show mercy to our ancestors,
and to remember his holy covenant–
the oath that he swore to our ancestor Abraham.
This oath grants
that we, being rescued from the hand of our enemies,
may serve him without fear,
in holiness and righteousness before him for as long as we live.

edit on 8-8-2011 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)

reply to post by pthena

I spent a few years from 2004 trying to bring the Elijah message. I saw it as nothing short of uniting all Abraham's descendants. I failed.

I know alot of christians who think that, that curse has ended.
I really dont because I think it pretains to spiritual and true isrealites.
Which they lost there idenity, Am I right??

About you're post to me. I agree 100% with you.
I feel those you have the keys to the afterlife rule the world barnone.
I hope you didnt take the atheist question was mocking you.
To me you are a very spiritual person, so just suprised to hear it.

LOTZA LUV
Whats a deist?

reply to post by Mividau

I really dont because I think it pretains to spiritual and true isrealites.
Which they lost there idenity, Am I right??

I think we live in a post tribal world. Once Israel went the king route, against prophet advice, that tribal identity was lost.

Israel became a nation among nations and competed with empires. Samaria made treaty with Assyrian empire to gain the upper hand against Syria. The empire swallowed up Syria and Samaria, then threatened Judah. Judah made treaty with Babylon against Assyria. Neo-Babylonian empire swallowed the Assyrian Empire and took Judah as a tribute paying province. Judah rebelled from Babylonian rule against prophet advice, got sacked. Persia took Babylon, Greeks beat Persians, Rome beat Greeks. Judea made treaty with Rome against Parthians. Judea rebelled against Rome, got sacked. etc.

The only time of independence was during power vacuums, no empire strong enough to enforce tribute. Some of what is found in the prophets is sound ethical and political advice, some is plain hyperbolic(exaggerated) superstition cloaked in pious witch hunting (this big drought happened because that town had an idol). Ezekiel actually blamed the Babylonian sacking on people's houses being too close to the temple.

Some Christians identify themselves as "the true Israel". I don't think that very wise, constantly looking at documents pertaining to obsolete worldviews. Why do that? It's like looking at an old calendar to decode the future.

I feel those you have the keys to the afterlife rule the world barnone.

I don't know what you mean by that.

A Deist, crudely put, believes a Creator came by, created the universe, including putting all the natural and physical laws in place, then either went His way or stands outside to see what people do with it on their own. The onus(responsibility) for justice, peace, and harmony is on the people. If people mess it up, then people are to blame. This excludes blaming God or the devil for wars and injustice and preventable humanitarian crises.

My variation is similar except God died. In the dying, (big bang maybe) the energy is transforming to solid matter, a basis for chaos to organize into a coherent universe. The spirit (though perhaps not totally self aware) yet is active in creation. Evolution = Creation. An ongoing process. The living god is spirit, which experiences through the experiences of other beings, god not being a discrete individual. It's actually a form of panentheism.

That's the philosophical way of explaining it. The Pagan way is to look up at the blue sky and say, "My God"

An Atheist, as I view it, is one who has achieved the pure abandoning of any attempt to identify or explain God. That seems a worthy goal, but I'm not going to claim I've made it until I do. Then you still won't hear me claim it because I'll have no need to.

I've had some discussions with Krishna devotees about the afterlife, and I'm thinking about Bob from that perspective.

"Heaven" would be liberation form the material world into the spiritual, which would only be reached by an unattached devotee, who has cultivated love and attachment for God through spiritual practices.

Bob still appears too attached through "Maya" or illusion to the physical world, and doesn't yet belong in "heaven". He is most likely a house-holder attached to family and making money, or he wouldn't have any to dish out to religious organizations. He is supporting a cause that is not necessary to love God - one doesn't need a divisive temple with animal slaughter (and needless violence against animals is karmically linked to social violence) to love God, neither does one need a rapture to develop spiritually immediately. So while he may love God, this comes with a whole lot of karmic baggage that is political and will result in suffering.

Therefore Bob will not go to heaven. What his fate might be depends on what else he did with his life, and on his motivation. Those who misled Bob and perverted his love of God with materialism are more to blame than Bob, who is simply a donor towards certain politics, not that much different to a taxpayer.
Perhaps it depends what kind of attachment he has to the political situation.
He may know nothing about it, except what he is told by his church.
He could then take birth on a higher planet where good Christians can develop further without the strong illusion of earthly politics.
Perhaps he built a strong attachment to Israel, which means he can take birth there and experience the situation directly.
He may have developed a strong hatred for the Palestinians and Muslims. This is a strong form of attachment that will cause him to take birth amongst them. This is a good solution for Bob, and will address a lot of karma.
His progress then depends on whether he simply shifts his proclivities and prejudices to the opposite political position, and once again ends up financing violence, perhaps by supporting some anti-Western terror group.
Poor Bob could bounce back and forth over lifetimes.
So one would have to consider his desire, his karma and his thoughts at the time of death.
If his thoughts are only of love for God and Jesus (which is doubtful) without all the materialism, then he may indeed be on a slow stairway to heaven.

reply to post by halfoldman

He is supporting a cause that is not necessary to love God - one doesn't need a divisive temple with animal slaughter (and needless violence against animals is karmically linked to social violence) to love God, neither does one need a rapture to develop spiritually immediately. So while he may love God, this comes with a whole lot of karmic baggage that is political and will result in suffering.

So, a temporary thumbs down, if karma gets worked through in subsequent lives, or not, if karmic baggage isn't released.

I think I left out any mention of how Bob felt about loving God. Emphasis on "sweet deal" for him. A flaw in my story. The only way I can think of reincarnation if that's even a term that Krishna devotees use, is to compare with physical recycling of matter. Rain to ground, to grass, to herbivore, to carnivore to bacteria to soil.

The atoms are the same elements in different configurations. If spirit is like matter, then . . . I thought I understood it once, I can't recall it now.

Thank you.

reply to post by pthena


Originally I started out trying to figure out the Apocalypse. There was a TV preacher who would go over the end times on his Sunday morning show and at the time I was working a night shift. I would come home and flip on the TV to unwind a bit before going to bed. I developed an interest in it and just started reading. A few years passed and 9-11 happened. And on that day I had this weird thought that if 9-11 was an end time event I should be able to find. So I looked. And had an "experience".

To put it simply I went to where I thought I would find the prophecy and got quite the shock. The entire chapter of the book in question was unreadable. The best way to describe the experience was I was getting static. Like I caught God in the middle of rewriting the prophecy and he wasn't exactly happy with me catching him in the process. So I gave up and tried it on another day. And realized I found what I had been looking for.

And then I realized I needed to get serious on this hobby I had. And took it too far. But that's my problem. But I do sure know a lot now.

So did Jesus Christ fail at what he came to do? No. His purpose on the earth changed. I suspect there was supposed to have been an alternate reality where John the Baptist survived his stint in the jail of Herod and was present when Jesus Christ drove out the moneychangers. But upon his death everything changed. And a 2000 year detour got placed in the road.

The 70th week of Daniel never happened. Rather it will happen in the last 7 years of the curse. And that will require a rebuilt temple. Why? Because all the prophecies of Daniel have the condition that they were supposed to happen in the end times. End of days, end of years, and so on. But with the extra 2000 years being added to the timeline that meant the events that came before in his prophesies no longer mattered. The prophesies of Daniel repeat in the 70th week because that is now the time of the end. Not the 69 weeks that came before.

So why are the events of the Apocalypse world wide events this time around? Because of the prophesies of Genesis 48 and 49. Read together the message is that in the end times the offspring of Israel will have become nations. Except for Ephraim who was supposed to become a multitude of nations. With the end times coming 2000 years after the death of the Prophet that would mean the multitude of nations exist now.

Essentially most if not all the nations on the earth are run by Israelites. Whether they know it or not. And it's pointless to argue the presence of the Jews in Israel. Some of them are genetic descendants of the original Israelites and that's enough.

reply to post by ntech
So, the practical application of all this learning is the knowledge of the insufficiency of Jesus to create an earthly reform to get the world properly under Abrahamic rule?
Jesus had at his beck and call legions of angels and needed not the Baptist at his side to force the people to do anything. The point of Jesus may have been the insufficiency of stone temples to make people holy.

reply to post by ntech


You may be right. I have been doing some research into the dead sea scrolls. There is a prophocy of Jesus in it.
Some believe that it an Essene one......

one Qumran Scroll from Cave 4 has this to say. The passage I'm about to read begins with four citations from 2 Samuel 7:11-14 and is followed by an interpretation and a citation of Amos 9:11 which, of course, is also found in the New Testament. >>>---------> Back up verses and info to the verse.

The Lord declares to you that He will build you a House. I will raise up your seed after you. I will establish the throne of his kingdom for ever. I will be his father and he shall be my son. He is the Branch of David who shall arise with the Interpreter of the Law to rule in Zion at the end of time. As it is written, I will raise up the tent of David that is fallen.

He shall arise with an interpreter of the Law to rule Zion

So from this you're theory could be correct. Sorry to add my imput to a private convo.
But I read that and it puzzeled me untill you're comment.

LOTZA LUV

reply to post by pthena

I feel those you have the keys to the afterlife rule the world barnone. by me

I don't know what you mean by that. by PT

Yikes sorry, I am a much better poet and fiction writter I promose LOL.
What I meant by that is that it seem's that through out history. Who ever
controls the access to GOD or gods has the power over us lil folk.

The Catholic System has had power over the kings of this earth.
First publicly then secretly and now publicly again.
The royal family, House of Windsor claims a blood line to.
David and the Muhammad. Cant wait to see where that claim goes LOL.

I hope I better explained it lol. Sometimes I can be a complete airhead.
I get what you are saying about atheist and deist.
Atheist sounds like a freedom from all the religious squabble.
I too believe science proves GODs creation.
I believe GOLDEN RATIOS are the creators signature on it.

I'd also like to rethank you about the Yahweh thing on the other thread.
It has started me down another path of seeking the truth.
Actualy a rabbit hole lol.

LOTZA LUV

reply to post by Mividau
The NT explains it that the time of Jesus was the last times.
I would say that "end of time" is an interpretation and that they did not use that expression.
"Time of the end" is most likely how it would have been written, et ketz, in the Hebrew.
Greek as in the NT, would say last time, eschatou chronou.
They are kind of the same but the Hebrew is almost redundant (you see the first word in the center of the second word, as a way of emphasizing it).

Back to the NT fulfilment, 1 Peter 1:20 He was foreknown before the foundation of the world but was manifested in these last times for your sake.

reply to post by jmdewey60


The scripture I put up is out of the DEAD SEA SCROLLS.
Wrong person to argue that point with.
You're agruement is with the scholars who interpret it not me.
I put up what they said about a scroll of essene prophocy.

Sometimes you're arguements is with the wrong people JM.
You need to go to the scholars and tell them that they are doing their jobs wrong.
Stop argueing with me about interpretations, I have never said to do that.
So honestly I have no idea what the heck you are talking about.
I am just a brick wall in that type of arguement.I do not possess that knowledge
It makes you look like a bit of a bully.

Like a 5th grader argueing 5th grade math concepts with a kindergardener.
You're go outta of you're way to pick on someone that has no idea.
With all that said I stand behind the quote I put up. It is from the DSS.
Not completely out of our bible. So you're point has become moot.

Unless of course you have had the privledge to personaly study the scroll
which I quoted. Have you studied it ??

LOTZA LUV

reply to post by Mividau
These things come out in pieces, released as they are figured out.
The scrolls are in really bad shape because of how they were handled by the people who discovered them, where they were not kept in ideal conditions. Some of them were ripped into smaller pieces to make more money by selling them by the piece.
The point being, if I did study them fifteen years ago, I would not have seen the more recent stuff coming out now.
I was not trying to argue with you, but pointing out that there is a bit of manipulation going on by the people who put this stuff out, to slant it a particular way so as to support their view.
I would say as a general rule, the writers of the NT had the OT pretty much figured out and have all their bases covered as far as Jesus being the fulfilment of prophecy, and not just part, but all of it.
Now if someone comes out with what they claim is a new argument from the OT against this, then they are not telling the truth. They are ignoring how it has already been dealt with. I would go further to say that accepting this sort of philosophy is the same in the end, as rejecting Christianity.

reply to post by jmdewey60


That quote was actualy used to show that, early christian wernt makeing up prophocies about
Jesus being the Son of GOD. It was showing that this prophocy was well known in the jewish
community. Down to the essense's.

So you clearly jumped to an assumption based on the fact that I posted it to show
that there may indeed be a coralation between what the other person had said and scripture.
Based on the fact it said and an intrepretor of the LAW.

But it is all fine and dandy when the DSS supports you're view points and claims.
You either throw out all the DSS scrolls or keep them all. You can not pick and chose
what you find valid within them. If you chose to say they hold no value, then you need to throw out
the NT because those are in there as well.

That is one sided logic with a predetermined drawn conclussion.
To me that type of thinking leads to close mindedness.
Close mindedness has lead to hatered, war, racism.

LOTZA LUV

reply to post by Mividau
I'm not even arguing about the validity of the DSS.
I am just pointing out that there are all sorts of people who want to use them to support their side.
My conclusion of it, as stated at the end of the post, is that accepting philosophies that are meant to counteract the claims of the NT and to undermine accepted Christianity, leaves one with something that is not Christianity as it has been known for some centuries. If a sort of Hybrid religion is created, that religion is not properly Christianity and the adherents of it should be aware of that fact.

reply to post by ntech

To put it simply I went to where I thought I would find the prophecy and got quite the shock. The entire chapter of the book in question was unreadable. The best way to describe the experience was I was getting static. Like I caught God in the middle of rewriting the prophecy and he wasn't exactly happy with me catching him in the process. So I gave up and tried it on another day. And realized I found what I had been looking for.

The question of who you caught rewriting prophecy is the important question. Who? You can end up asking that question for the rest of your life. For what purpose? would be easier to track down.

Just yesterday, a friend of mine sent me a link to an article with the question: Revised Dispensationalism?
MARRIAGE SUPPER of the LAMB
Here is what I wrote as a review and critique:

This is an updated version alright. It includes and interweaves New Age vocabulary. The literary style is as "channeling", to give it that esoteric taste and feel. Hebrew titles and names. Downgrade "Hellenism" several times. Philosophy = bad, Greek philosophical method=the worst. "National Israel" and "the Church" are the 2 works in progress, from which 1 "elect" emerges.

There is a 2,000 years pulled out of thin air, and placed in the vicinity of, as in physically on the page, as if anywhere there is an actual reference to 2000 years. In 100 years they can change it to 2100, I suppose.

" The goddess worship of Gaia, also revered by the gays, is a farce. And the pantheistic new age goddesses ...We also see that the heathen are ramping up their rage against the coming Messiah. This is just as King David wrote in his song. (Psalm 2) "

So let's see. The National Israel and the logic hating Christians are on one side under YHVH, and the rebel naturalists and humanists and gays are on the other. Hmmm Which side shall I choose?

Back in the 70s and 80s it wasn't yet popular for Christians to go around spouting Hebrew terms and names, now it is, thanks to actual Knesset lobby for using Zionist Christians(I did a thread on that I believe). I suppose Christians who don't use those Hebrew words and Names will be outed as non-authentic Christians, that is, still "Hellenized"

Here is that section I mentioned about the 2000 years:

The marriage supper might witness some interesting conversations. The saints redeemed out of this present age will testify that they had just been raptured or resurrected at the end of the Seventieth Week of Daniel. This will have happened in the early 2,000's.
endtimepilgrim.org...

And it's pointless to argue the presence of the Jews in Israel. Some of them are genetic descendants of the original Israelites and that's enough.

There were Israelite descendants in the Judean province of Rome at the time of Jesus, along with Jews(those who joined from many nationalities in order to be on the winning side).

Stone temples are idols. An idol is made by human hands, an idol has a "demon" in it which is worshipped, not the stone or wood but the demon within. Demon means "of divine origin" actual Greek etymology, Demons can be good or bad, helpful or harmful, just or capricious. Stone temple: made with human hands, entity of divine origin within. The stone isn't worshipped, the demon within is.

The point of this thread is: Those who want the temple built are the ones who want to rule the world. They will use the lack of reasoning power of Christians to do it.

The Christians who already believe that evil will dwell in the temple are brainwashed to think it's a good thing to build for evil.

So ask yourself: "Who did I spot changing the prophesies?"

PS: I am very familiar with the experience you describe, so was Jesus. Did he fail? No. Because he cut through the delusion of prophets and boiled it down to "by their fruits you shall know them". The fruits: Holocaust, Nakba, Ethnic cleansing, subversion of national sovereignties, forced exile. All harmful to people.