Is Satan truly evil?

reply to post by David_Reale


Satan isn't "evil" in the sense of some boogy man out to kill you - he's a destroyed and rebellious child that is too prideful to admit fault. In his quest to prove himself - he's willing to take down anyone and everything - because like a child - he's pissed that God knows best.

Its a dirty job but somebodies gotta do it.

Isn't that why God made him in the first place?

It kinda ties the whole story together.

I mean lets face it there really wouldn't be much of a need for religion if not for the invention of the devil.

All of those church's and temples, war, genocide, torture etc,etc,etc. Never would have happened if God hadn't invented him.

Now that there is obviously some all knowing, all seeing, omnipotence.

3 cheers for somnambulist Gods!

YEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY

YEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEYYYYYYYYYYYYYY

YEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY

Yes I agree with you because Jesus is at GODs Right Hand and Satan on GOD's Left. This is why I contend; in the very last Day; GOD will send Satan as the Angel of Death; to Collect the Rent. Isa. 45:6-7 tells us that GOD created All and All GOD created was for GOD's Good Cause; Not Yours


reply to post by IKTOMI

Originally posted by zatara
The devil is out to distroy every thing that God has created (except the universe, his servants and himself) and his intension is to deceive, manipulate and disgrace everything that 'carries' Gods signature.

Why...? Because the devil is an egocentric jalous psychopath with megalomaniacal tendencies and a sore loser.

Thats why...

edit on 14-7-2011 by zatara because: (no reason given)

Like i said earlier, i constantle see people destroy and kill for god. Never heard nor seen anyone kill for satan. In fact i have watched a few specials on satan worshipers and the majority of views on Satan are quite perplexed

The crusades, islamic expansion, witchhunts and the subsequent murders by zelots, religious bigotry, 'cleansing of the people', all these fun times were done in the name of a loving god, not satan, boys and girls. and even though those who refuse to think for themselves will say that the evil worked was the devil's, I will say that the most powerful evil worked comes from the heart of man, not some misaligned demigod. The truest chaos is the mind of a bully, who thinks his or her way is best because of 'might makes right'. If the satan portrayed and feared by the sheeple were real, he wouldn't have any work to do, because the willful stupidity of the masses does all his work for him. If He does exist, He is very bored. I have more sympathy for the devil than a god who is more than likely insane due to the dismal worship of his 'flock'.

Originally posted by 1MrsJesusChrist
Yes I agree with you because Jesus is at GODs Right Hand and Satan on GOD's Left. This is why I contend; in the very last Day; GOD will send Satan as the Angel of Death; to Collect the Rent. Isa. 45:6-7 tells us that GOD created All and All GOD created was for GOD's Good Cause; Not Yours


reply to post by IKTOMI

 

So in other words you are admitting that the God you believe in is a twisted psychopath who is schizophrenically amusing himself with silly sock puppet theatre?

Thats pretty deep.

Are you sure you aren't a Discordian?

Hail Eris!

lived

Originally posted by volafox
The crusades, islamic expansion, witchhunts and the subsequent murders by zelots, religious bigotry, 'cleansing of the people', all these fun times were done in the name of a loving god, not satan, boys and girls. and even though those who refuse to think for themselves will say that the evil worked was the devil's, I will say that the most powerful evil worked comes from the heart of man, not some misaligned demigod. The truest chaos is the mind of a bully, who thinks his or her way is best because of 'might makes right'. If the satan portrayed and feared by the sheeple were real, he wouldn't have any work to do, because the willful stupidity of the masses does all his work for him. If He does exist, He is very bored. I have more sympathy for the devil than a god who is more than likely insane due to the dismal worship of his 'flock'.

Awesome !!!!!!!!!!!!

No the GOD I believe in requires Obedience and not a bunch of folks who swore their oaths on a Bible and claim they would make no law respecting an establishment of religion; I mean GOD's laws.

Originally posted by IKTOMI

Originally posted by 1MrsJesusChrist
Yes I agree with you because Jesus is at GODs Right Hand and Satan on GOD's Left. This is why I contend; in the very last Day; GOD will send Satan as the Angel of Death; to Collect the Rent. Isa. 45:6-7 tells us that GOD created All and All GOD created was for GOD's Good Cause; Not Yours


reply to post by IKTOMI

 

So in other words you are admitting that the God you believe in is a twisted psychopath who is schizophrenically amusing himself with silly sock puppet theatre?

Thats pretty deep.

Are you sure you aren't a Discordian?

Hail Eris!

reply to post by 1MrsJesusChrist


So you more rely on non-sequitur semantics and lazy mind gymnastics to avoid actually thinking for yourself.

K

good luck with that.

Originally posted by David_Reale

So, in short, assuming that the whole God and the Devil, Heaven and Hell thingie do exist - do y'all think it's possible that this would be true? That Satan isn't evil and corruption incarnate, but just a "man" (You know what I mean) doing his job?

Fascinating question actually. It's something of a conundrum, because if one doesn't believe in the Bible then is there any reason to believe Satan exists at all? Because the Bible is basically the only source of information about Satan. So we're basically left with two options- one believes the Bible (Satan is evil) or one doesn't believe the Bible (Satan doesn't exist). These are the two absolutes I'm used to seeing debated, this 3rd option of Satan existing, but not being evil, is a new wrinkle If you're going down that road then obviously you have to accept the Bible as either wrong or quite flawed, and if that's the case then it becomes very difficult to define Satan. You could at that point say he's not an entity at all, but more like a "face" being given to evil. So God vanquishing "Satan" isn't so much the banishing of an entity so much as just a general cleansing of the world of evil. For the record I do believe Satan is the great deceiver and is at work in the world trying to rally people to his cause and prevent God from ultimately assuming power of the earth as promised. But it's interesting to explore these other avenues. In the end I truly believe there's a lot we do not understand about God, Satan, angels, etc. We all have our preconceptions, but the truth is very rarely what we think it is.

Originally posted by Adyta
I don't believe in god or the devil... but for one second let's pretend. Who is more evil?

Satan - Ruler of the underworld.
God - Creator of cancer, AIDS, natural disasters, disease, drought, parasites, birth defects, and spiders.

Yeah, if they exist... I know who is more evil.

If we're pretending you believe in God and Satan, then should we also pretend you follow the Bible? Because if so, you don't believe God created those things, you believe they are a result of man's fall into sin, that the world is sin-sick and suffers those things because of what it has done to itself. You also believe that God will redeem the world some day soon, and you believe that Satan is the prince of this world and is doing everything he can to prevent God from completing this act.

Originally posted by volafox
The crusades, islamic expansion, witchhunts and the subsequent murders by zelots, religious bigotry, 'cleansing of the people', all these fun times were done in the name of a loving god, not satan, boys and girls.

Quite true, and as I've said in other threads, this is not proof of whether or not God (or Satan) exists. It is only proof of how arrogant people can be. Some would argue that in fact Satan drove these people to do such things all the while whispering in their ears that it's God's work. That's possible I suppose, but frankly I think it didn't involve God or Satan, but is just a manifestation of the wickedness in people's hearts.

Originally posted by volafox
and even though those who refuse to think for themselves will say that the evil worked was the devil's, I will say that the most powerful evil worked comes from the heart of man, not some misaligned demigod.

Exactly

Originally posted by volafox
If the satan portrayed and feared by the sheeple were real, he wouldn't have any work to do, because the willful stupidity of the masses does all his work for him. If He does exist, He is very bored.

OK, now I got a good laugh out of that

Originally posted by volafox
I have more sympathy for the devil than a god who is more than likely insane due to the dismal worship of his 'flock'.

What I'm going to say diverges from standard Christian thought, but I can't imagine why a pure and perfect God would need worship at all. I mean, if you think about truly great leaders they were the ones who operated out of a sense of duty and what is morally right rather than out of a need for praise and adulation. These types of leaders dismiss praise for them as wasted effort. God must by definition be far superior to the greatest leaders we've ever seen, and I think the Biblical accounts of Him needing all the cheerleading are told through the lens of people who felt inclined to do so. I think this is an area where the true nature of God is being misrepresented by men who think they can define the undefinable.

Originally posted by IKTOMI
Its a dirty job but somebodies gotta do it.

Isn't that why God made him in the first place?

Ah, the Satan as Darth Vader argument, LOL! He brings balance to the force! Who knows, this could be closer to the truth than we realize. Without evil would we even know what "good" is? One is needed to define the other. If one believes that God is omniscient and omnipresent then He must also know the eventuality of every move. In creating Satan He had to know everything that would follow, and therefore it had to be part of His plan. I'm sure some athiests will say "but only an insane God would do such a thing". But you have to understand that we believe we're only seeing part of His grand plan, and that once the plan is complete it will all make perfect sense. I know that's little consolation now, but "for now we see through a glass, darkly".

Originally posted by SavedOne

Originally posted by IKTOMI
Its a dirty job but somebodies gotta do it.

Isn't that why God made him in the first place?

Ah, the Satan as Darth Vader argument, LOL! He brings balance to the force! Who knows, this could be closer to the truth than we realize. Without evil would we even know what "good" is? One is needed to define the other. If one believes that God is omniscient and omnipresent then He must also know the eventuality of every move. In creating Satan He had to know everything that would follow, and therefore it had to be part of His plan. I'm sure some athiests will say "but only an insane God would do such a thing". But you have to understand that we believe we're only seeing part of His grand plan, and that once the plan is complete it will all make perfect sense. I know that's little consolation now, but "for now we see through a glass, darkly".

I can see through it quite clearly. As it turns out enlightenment wasn't near as complicated as most would have themselves believe.

Its pretty strait forward and quite logical.

As for the lord working in mysterious ways toward his grand plan.

Watch that first step its a doozy.

reply to post by 1MrsJesusChrist


Or Those who wrote, texts from the so called true Gospels for their own perverted benefits as we have seen in certain religions. Who take these so called scriptures and who have doctorined them to their own self believes and who have caused wars and conflicts to enforce their believes on others.

I think the question here is: Is Satan truly real

There is no evidence whatsoever that Lucifer even exists at all physically, perhaps in the minds of men but not in reality.

Originally posted by Adyta
I don't believe in god or the devil... but for one second let's pretend. Who is more evil?

Satan - Ruler of the underworld.
God - Creator of cancer, AIDS, natural disasters, disease, drought, parasites, birth defects, and spiders.

Yeah, if they exist... I know who is more evil.

edit on 7/13/2011 by Adyta because: (no reason given)

Please give us the source to see who did create STDS, the first testament?

Originally posted by Sahabi
reply to post by AQuestion

 

Hello and may Peace be upon you

I did answer the OP in my initial reply to this thread. It is a "simple question," and I gave a simple answer [no]. Additionally, I explained why I said Satan was not evil in the last sentence of my initial reply to this thread, supplemented with the Biblical quote. Please do not accuse me of that which i am not guilty.

I am apologize if I have earned your hostility through offending your faith or beliefs. My replies thus far have fully supported my initial reply, which was fully on-topic. If you disagree with me or are offended by my understandings, I only address the Bible and the religion, not addressing you or any person.

"Job, in the end, did not blame God, he questioned him and never did give up his belief in God just because he suffered, why do you attempt to speak for Job, you do not know his heart'

Job tore his garments asunder, shaved his head, cut himself, and sat in ashes. He sat in silence for seven days even in the company of his friends. Sure he didn't blame God, but he openly stated his wish of death over birth and life. The man was clearly devastated and hurt. Yes, Job did not lose faith. Yes, things turned out alright in the end. But you can not say that during the tribulation Job was not severely hurt. If God already knew Job was upright and righteous, why allow the man to suffer such emotional hardship just to prove Satan wrong? Do the ends justify the means?

'You refer to Job as a bet, that is slightly deceitful, it was not a bet, it was an evidence."

"Hey Satan, I have this believer that is just perfect!"

"Oh yeah God, how good do you think he is? I bet if misfortune befalls his family, his property, his wealth, his farm, and his health... I bet he'll turn his back on you!"

"No way Satan, go ahead and mess up his life. Cause him grief, pain, and depression. He won't turn his back on me."

AQuestion, that sure sounds like a bet to me. God would rather put a man through hell to prove Satan wrong, rather than tell Satan to take a hike? (Off-topic now)I thought "thou shalt not tempt the Lord." Yet God allows Satan to tempt Him, and in order to prove Himself to Satan, God authorizes Satan to unleash hell upon Job's life.

In so answering the initial OP, we have now elaborated as to God's blame in this whole affair. You said Satan would have been innocent only if he were an observer. Well, God crossed the line of observer when he told Satan, "Very well, then, everything he has is in your power, but on the man himself do not lay a finger. Very well, then, he is in your hands; but you must spare his life.”

As you question me with a metaphor, allow me to answer your last few sentences with a metaphor of my own.

I create a weapon of mass destruction powered by a fully realized artificial intelligence. This artificial intelligence asks me if it can unleash destruction upon the world. I answer the A.I. in the affirmative that I will allow it. This weapon of mass destruction devastates multitudes of people. Are my hands clean and innocent? Should we never question me, but only focus 100% of the blame onto the A.I.? The A.I. is only as evil as its creator who programmed it... only as evil as the creator authorized it to be.

Just in case you missed it the first time; "The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin."
[Deuteronomy 24:16]

Nothing is Satan's fault, we are responsible for our own actions. Satan does not do evil, we do. Mere words are not evil, actions are and we're all responsible for our own actions. Satan only tempts, we react. Actions speak louder than words.

If you still disagree with me, I would like to respectfully end the discourse. I said all i needed to, and I do not want to waste time bickering when we both have our own separate opinions. You are not wrong, but I am not wrong also. You are right in your world, I am right in my world. May Peace be upon you my friend.

Dear Sahabi,

Firstly, I am sorry if you feel that I am offended or upset, I am neither. I see someone ask if Satan was evil and then a whole of bunch of people who want to claim God is evil, even atheists. For some reason it is very hard for anyone to ask a spiritual question on ATS without having to hear how God is evil or the tooth fairy analogy. It is as if a number of people on this site want to prevent others from having their chosen discussion, I am not accusing you of this, I explaining why I respond the way I do.

You ask "If God already knew Job was upright and righteous, why allow the man to suffer such emotional hardship just to prove Satan wrong?" If you ask a question of me and I disagree with you then you say that will you will not respond. Is that fair, oh, I can only have discussion with you if I agree that you are always right, that is your choice. I will speak for myself. In regards to your question, of course God knew Job was upright that is why he pointed him out. The beginning of the book of Job explains why. It says the Devil accuses us day and night before the Lord, what does he accuse us of and why bother, there must be a consequence if the Devil is correct. Now if the Lord chose Job to confront these challenges then he must have known that Job was the answer, that Job justified the rest of us even with all of our faults.

Job got his rear kicked, he sure did and I am sure it was very unpleasant. But we must ask why Job was chosen. He would have been willing to do it to prove that we are worth it. The greatest love is he who gives his life for others, I read that in the bible. When Job finally does know enough to satisfy his questions regarding the whole incident, he apologizes to the Lord. To be used by the Lord is considered a blessing by believers. It would have been different if a non-believer had been so used. Consider that the story could have been about a Philistine who God allowed Satan to torture, the message would have been "Don't mess with my people". That is not the message of Job, the message is that believers have to prove to themselves that they really believe. I think Jesus said, pick up your cross and follow me daily, or something very similiar. I can find the exact quote.

As for your next analogy. You start with someone creating an artificial intelligence. Satan is not an artificial intelligence, he makes choices so do we. He is as equally responsible for his choices as we are for ours. You say he is not guilty for his words, hmmm, I disagree. It also says, "But whatever comes out of the mouth comes from the heart, and this is what makes a man unclean and defiles [him]. For out of the heart come evil thoughts (reasonings and disputings and designs) such as murder, adultery, sexual vice, theft, false witnessing, slander, and irreverent speech." It basically says that we are responsible for our words and that it shows the evil inside us. I will ask you again, in a respectful way, why are we guilty and yet you find Satan innocent of his words and actions?

reply to post by AQuestion


I do not want to only speak to those that agree with me. But when you find yourself going in the same circle with another person, it is better to just walk away. At that point it is apparent that neither person is budging from their understanding, opinion, or belief.

"why are we guilty and yet you find Satan innocent of his words and actions?

Because I believe that each person is fully responsible for their own sins. To call Satan evil is placing blame on him for our own actions instead of taking responsibility.

The reason I place God into the equation is because what claims are made against Satan, similar claims can be made against God directly through his genocide in the Oks Testament. Additionally, Godis the creator and authority over Satan.

Originally posted by Sahabi
reply to post by AQuestion

 

I do not want to only speak to those that agree with me. But when you find yourself going in the same circle with another person, it is better to just walk away. At that point it is apparent that neither person is budging from their understanding, opinion, or belief.

"why are we guilty and yet you find Satan innocent of his words and actions?

Because I believe that each person is fully responsible for their own sins. To call Satan evil is placing blame on him for our own actions instead of taking responsibility.

The reason I place God into the equation is because what claims are made against Satan, similar claims can be made against God directly through his genocide in the Oks Testament. Additionally, Godis the creator and authority over Satan.

Dear Sahabi,

I asked if Satan was responsible for his actions. I accept my responsibility for mine. If he does not accept responsibility for his then where do you place him on the guilt trip, you say as innocent. Hmmm, not me, be fair, we are all responsible for our words and actions. Why find him innocent and us guilty? If you say he is a robot, then I agree, he is God's choice and guilty by your criteria. I just believe he has choice also. So, there you have it, a guilty God and Satan or a guilty us and God. You prefer to find the accuser and tempter innocent rather than accept that he had more time and observation of us. Gets back to Job doesn;t it. You say Job was innocent, how was Satan right? In that situation, oh, you say he had no choice. Lets go with that, it points to his guilt. Happy to continue this train of thought.

reply to post by AQuestion


Wouldn't you say that Satan is a mere angel and though he the tempter of sin nothing he creates impinges on God's perfection. In the same way none of us are evil, only our actions are... perhaps.

As far as I'm concerned the Old Testament represents people beginning to understand themselves in a world perspective and just beginning to see how their actions might be more or less 'good' based on principals. When they got it wrong they incurred gods wrath, BUT that anger they talk about is simply action > reaction. The evidence that they call god is only god in that it was always bound to happen and there is an essence there to sort through future problems, a divine wisdom as it were.

The devil by definition is unimaginably bad. I'm quite sure this is an infinite nature and not a spirit / angel. I refuse to believe that the destroyer is hated by god and I know that nothing will ever present itself on earth that calls itself the devil, just bad people feeling the need to destroy, most probably through their own fruition, but always filling a vacuum.

Biblical prophesy may be legitimate but only good people can sense the future. They can see how aspects of culture must clash. It's easy enough to link cause and reaction together. Putting a time line on it is another thing. (I don't think that's possible because we have free will). God knows what will transpire regardless of anything, but the time things take to happen is in the realm of our experience alone...

As far as God is concerned Satan is as evil as we decide he is. Satan to god is completely irrelevant except that it is his creation and supposedly God IS his creations and therefore Satan is an aspect of God.

There is no ultimate evil. There is ultimate good. We create the balance but there is none. It's a concept.

The evil people that will come will be away from God, but no further than the most pious deity. The difference is in the here and now. Good and evil are both entirely relative, as nothing is set in concrete, ever.