Is Satan truly evil?

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posted on Jul, 13 2011 @ 10:06 PM
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The people that say they don't believe in either God or Satan, sure do a lot of God bashing and hating.. Curious to say the least...

People don't actually believe in Mother Goose, but we don't see them starting threads and bashing and hating on mother goose do we?

It must be that human thing, (poor oppressed, selfish me syndrome) they have...




posted on Jul, 13 2011 @ 10:07 PM
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reply to post by AQuestion
 


Why would I have to believe in Satan to talk about him?? I am not following any kind of logic in that statement.... Lex Luthor was pretty evil wasn't he? or maybe he was just jealous he didn't have supermans powers... Don't worry though I'm allowed to talk about Superman because I believe in him completely!



posted on Jul, 13 2011 @ 10:11 PM
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Originally posted by Sahabi
No, Satan is not evil.

Satan is only a temptor, and according to the Book of Job, Satan tempts mankind with the permission of God! So whatever Satan does, God ok's it. God created Satan and ok's his actions, who's worse?

Satan is NOT ruler of the Hell. This is not stated as such in the Bible at all. It is a myth incorporated into Christianity by the book "Paradise Lost" by John Milton.



"The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin."
[Deuteronomy 24:16]

Nothing is Satan's fault, we are responsible for our own actions. Satan does not do evil, we do.


Dear Sahabi,

I must disagree with your logic. I agree that we are responsible for our own actions and that we do choose to do evil. I disagree that Satan promoting evil makes him an innocent. He would only be innocent if he remained an observer. His active and willful attempts to tempt cannot be seen as good, remember, there is none good but God, therefore if we accept the OPs assumptions, Satan can also be evil.



posted on Jul, 13 2011 @ 10:14 PM
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reply to post by jheated5
 


Dear jheated5,

Please show where I said that you were not allowed to discuss Satan or God, cut and paste from what I did say or better yet, post my whole reply and then show where I said that you were not allowed to speak up. You are being insincere and are not accurately reflecting what I did say. My reply basically said, state your biases and answer what was asked as if you accepted the underlying assumptions.



posted on Jul, 13 2011 @ 10:16 PM
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reply to post by AQuestion
 


Does not the Book of Job illustrate that Satan asks permission from God before he does what he does? How can we reconcile this?



posted on Jul, 13 2011 @ 10:17 PM
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Originally posted by Sahabi
reply to post by AQuestion
 


Does not the Book of Job illustrate that Satan asks permission from God before he does what he does? How can we reconcile this?


Dear Sahabi,

Reconcile it with what? Please be specific so that I can respond.



posted on Jul, 13 2011 @ 10:22 PM
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Originally posted by AQuestion
reply to post by randyvs
 


Dear randyvs,

I have not read all of the witnesses posts; however, based on your statements and the fact that the witness can respond to them, I make a tentative finding in your favor. The witness cannot claim to be both a atheist and then say that Satan may have a defense. The only out is for him to say that there is a Satan and no God ever existed, in which case he cannot claim that God is bad and Satan good. I do however disagree with your requested punishment, instead I say his words, all of them, will live on forever so that others will know of his insincerity. So it is written, so it shall be.


How much more clear can you be? Do you read what you write? I simply wanted to know why you or randy thought you have to believe in satan in order for you to speak up about him..... I could say he is not real but from the story I could make an assumption for the way he was just like I would in any other book....



posted on Jul, 13 2011 @ 10:22 PM
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reply to post by AQuestion
 


Satan asked God's permission to tempt and afflict Job with 'misfortune' in a bet to see if God's faithful servant would backslide. God signed off on it and gave His approval.

If Satan is evil, why did he ask God first, then why did God allow it?

If Satan is guilty by tempting even though he didn't actually make us do anything, would that make God guilty also as Satan's accomplice?



posted on Jul, 13 2011 @ 10:27 PM
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reply to post by Sahabi
 


The story, if you tell the whole of it. Job is reconciled in the end and with greater amounts than before.
Job dies very old and very happy. What needs to be reconciled ?



posted on Jul, 13 2011 @ 10:33 PM
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reply to post by randyvs
 


Yeah Job ended good. But I'm saying God approved everything. If Satan is guilty by tempting, isn't God guilty by approval?



posted on Jul, 13 2011 @ 10:33 PM
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Originally posted by Sahabi
reply to post by AQuestion
 


Satan asked God's permission to tempt and afflict Job with 'misfortune' in a bet to see if God's faithful servant would backslide. God signed off on it and gave His approval.

If Satan is evil, why did he ask God first, then why did God allow it?

If Satan is guilty by tempting even though he didn't actually make us do anything, would that make God guilty also as Satan's accomplice?


Dear Sahabi,

The OP's question was whether or not Satan was evil not whether or not God was. The question is not why Satan asked God's permission, on a deeper level ( a one responsive to the OP), the question is why Satan wanted to torment Job in the first place. You avoid dealing with Satan's guilt in order to accuse us and God, I am sure that Satan likes all those who accuse humanity, we do his work for him because we believe that we should live in Club Med and only have fun and comfort.

Job, in the end, did not blame God, he questioned him and never did give up his belief in God just because he suffered, why do you attempt to speak for Job, you do not know his heart or why he faced such challenges. Job was not picked at random, God asked if Satan had considered his servant Job, God believed in Job and believed that Job would stand his ground, which he did.

You refer to Job as a bet, that is slightly deceitful, it was not a bet, it was an evidence. If man is to someday rule over the angels then shouldn't we earn that right or should we just be given it? Still, the most fundamental question that is responsive to the OP is whether or not Satan is evil, you avoid it with comparisons to God rather than deal with the question. If Satan accuses us of wrongdoing and attempts to bribe us or otherwise cause us duress in order to get us to make bad decisions, is he good or bad? If a Nazi guard asks Hitler's permission to torture a Jew, does that make the guard good or evil? Simple question.



posted on Jul, 13 2011 @ 10:52 PM
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Originally posted by Sahabi
No, Satan is not evil.

Satan is only a temptor, and according to the Book of Job, Satan tempts mankind with the permission of God! So whatever Satan does, God ok's it. God created Satan and ok's his actions, who's worse?


Now here is a thought I can springboard from. What if Satan is only doing his job, as assigned by God?

In order to appreciate the "good", there must be a basis for comparison, hence evil. One cannot exist independently of the other, otherwise it would simply "be" or the status quo. Would there even be a point to free will, if there was nothing to choose between?

Given that, perhaps God just made a job opening, somebody needing to play the "heavy" so souls would truly have a basis for free will and a learning experience. Kind of like Judas having a role to fill.

I know this isn't an original thought, but I thought I'd throw it out there. Ultimately, who knows.



posted on Jul, 13 2011 @ 10:54 PM
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Great posts so far!!!

My own personal opinion (I don't consider myself to be "religious" but spiritual: they overlap a lot!) is yes and no.

Assuming there is a god, I always considered it to be an everlasting, unified energy. But this entity or consciousness couldn't experience anything without some form of self deception; it needed to convince it self that it was not something, only in order to believe that there was something separate from it.

Representing that particular intention, perhaps Satan was the entity, ray of light, or spark that was asked or ordained by god to bring a piece of god from one side of the mirror to the other. As an active agent in creation, there was great pride in this accomplishment.

But the so called "fall" was an inevitable consequence of this action, occurring simultaneously with the first action. As god forgot Satan or cast him out, so Satan forgot god. With it came loneliness, despair, and anger and ignorance.

I think we all have some "Satan" in us; remembering our true connection with source and each other and accepting again the good and the bad will help humanity evolve.
edit on 13-7-2011 by davidsewell because: edit: good timing reading the post above!!!!



posted on Jul, 13 2011 @ 10:59 PM
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Originally posted by TiggersTheMan

Originally posted by Sahabi
No, Satan is not evil.

Satan is only a temptor, and according to the Book of Job, Satan tempts mankind with the permission of God! So whatever Satan does, God ok's it. God created Satan and ok's his actions, who's worse?


Now here is a thought I can springboard from. What if Satan is only doing his job, as assigned by God?

In order to appreciate the "good", there must be a basis for comparison, hence evil. One cannot exist independently of the other, otherwise it would simply "be" or the status quo. Would there even be a point to free will, if there was nothing to choose between?

Given that, perhaps God just made a job opening, somebody needing to play the "heavy" so souls would truly have a basis for free will and a learning experience. Kind of like Judas having a role to fill.

I know this isn't an original thought, but I thought I'd throw it out there. Ultimately, who knows.




Dear TigersTheMan,

Firstly, what an interesting choice in usernames, did you pick it before or after it was found out that he was cheating on his wife with prostitutes? Just wondering. I would to address your theme. Must there be evil for there to be good? Nope. You can have good and not have evil without having stasis. You need to define evil. Evil and sin are different. Sin is anything short of perfection, evil is wrongdoing, that requires a bad intent. If I am blind in one eye, I am not perfect; but, it doesn't make me evil.

Where we sit on the the spectrum is our choice, God does not place us there, we choose. Our choices define us, not God and not Satan. We can choose to be evil, we end up evil. Evil is selfishness.



posted on Jul, 13 2011 @ 11:04 PM
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Originally posted by davidsewell
Great posts so far!!!

My own personal opinion (I don't consider myself to be "religious" but spiritual: they overlap a lot!) is yes and no.

Assuming there is a god, I always considered it to be an everlasting, unified energy. But this entity or consciousness couldn't experience anything without some form of self deception; it needed to convince it self that it was not something, only in order to believe that there was something separate from it.

Representing that particular intention, perhaps Satan was the entity, ray of light, or spark that was asked or ordained by god to bring a piece of god from one side of the mirror to the other. As an active agent in creation, there was great pride in this accomplishment.

But the so called "fall" was an inevitable consequence of this action, occurring simultaneously with the first action. As god forgot Satan or cast him out, so Satan forgot god. With it came loneliness, despair, and anger and ignorance.

I think we all have some "Satan" in us; remembering our true connection with source and each other and accepting again the good and the bad will help humanity evolve.
edit on 13-7-2011 by davidsewell because: edit: good timing reading the post above!!!!


Dear davidsewell,

You have been a member for two years and have only made four posts. I am considering the possibility that you may be sensitive to responses so I wish to be clear in mine. What I mean by that is that if I disagree with you, there is no harsh intention or intent to be disagreable, I merely wish to be responsive, not argumentative.

I don't believe God needed to create an absolute zero, convince himself that he didn't exist because that would be impossible. A sentient being cannot convince itself that it is not aware. It all starts from one, that becomes two, not zero, there is no absolute zero because you are aware if only for a second.



posted on Jul, 13 2011 @ 11:05 PM
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And then there is this damning evidence.

And I saw an angel coming down from heaven, having the key of the abyss and a great chain in his hand. And he laid hold of the dragon, the serpent of old, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years, and threw him into the abyss, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he should not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were completed; after these things he must be released for a short time (Rev. 20:1-3).




Originally posted by Sahabi
No, Satan is not evil.

Satan is only a temptor, and according to the Book of Job, Satan tempts mankind with the permission of God! So whatever Satan does, God ok's it. God created Satan and ok's his actions, who's worse?

Satan is NOT ruler of the Hell. This is not stated as such in the Bible at all. It is a myth incorporated into Christianity by the book "Paradise Lost" by John Milton.



"The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin."
[Deuteronomy 24:16]

Nothing is Satan's fault, we are responsible for our own actions. Satan does not do evil, we do.



posted on Jul, 13 2011 @ 11:54 PM
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Originally posted by Adyta

Originally posted by Warpedconsciousness
Anyone that is in the presence of Gods infinite love and grace and decides it isn't enough is pure evil.


This is my biggest problem with religion. "I love you, but if you don't love me back it's an eternity of fire and torture for you! But don't forget... I looove youuuu



posted on Jul, 14 2011 @ 12:00 AM
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reply to post by AQuestion
 


Thank you for your respectful response, AQuestion. I'm not sensitive to posts, just more of a daily lurker. I sometimes post on the "other" forum known to be full of morans, but find that on ATS, there at least is the semblance of real dialogue. And I really don't have the time for it, the GF gets mad!!!

As per your post and to continue to use the number analogy, I think prior to any first cause there is a zero/infinite existing simultaneously. However, with the first mover/cause/thought, the divide is not from one to two but three. It's like there are two parts, but the third part divides them and is required for them to form/exist. And the source of that thought is the divide, almost reflected back on itself.

I guess this allows me to view something in creation that is more than the sum of its parts. Again these are only personal feelings...numbers and words often are insufficient to portray true meaning. It's like they approach the idea but never quite get there!!!

*the GF is away with her mom on vacation, so....
edit on 14-7-2011 by davidsewell because: added *



posted on Jul, 14 2011 @ 12:00 AM
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Originally posted by AQuestion

Dear TigersTheMan,

Firstly, what an interesting choice in usernames, did you pick it before or after it was found out that he was cheating on his wife with prostitutes? Just wondering.


Before you start off attempting to bash me over my username, you might want to check that you have spelled it correctly. It's Tigger, not Tiger. As in the character in Winnie the Pooh, whom my cat happens to resemble. Hence, the name refers to my cat. Moving on.


Originally posted by AQuestion
Must there be evil for there to be good? Nope. You can have good and not have evil without having stasis. You need to define evil. Evil and sin are different. Sin is anything short of perfection, evil is wrongdoing, that requires a bad intent.


I'm sorry, I don't understand how this relates to "evil" or "good" existing independently of the other. Simply by having a definition for either, you acknowledge they both exist. Your definition for sin is a result of your beliefs, as I'm sure you know, not everyone shares the same beliefs. For example, if you were to look up the definition of sin according to a dictionary, it does not define sin as "anything short of perfection."


Originally posted by AQuestion
If I am blind in one eye, I am not perfect; but, it doesn't make me evil.


I'm sorry, again, I don't see the point of this comment. Are you implying that by being blind, you're defined as imperfect, and therefore have sinned? That's an awful concept (IMO). I am not one to judge as to whether or not being blind makes you imperfect or not, and of course I agree it doesn't make you evil.


Originally posted by AQuestion
Where we sit on the the spectrum is our choice, God does not place us there, we choose. Our choices define us, not God and not Satan. We can choose to be evil, we end up evil. Evil is selfishness.


I never stated otherwise, hence my comments regarding free will. The point of the thread is, is Satan truly evil, and I gave my thoughts on the subject.



posted on Jul, 14 2011 @ 12:12 AM
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Originally posted by davidsewell
reply to post by AQuestion
 


Thank you for your respectful response, AQuestion. I'm not sensitive to posts, just more of a daily lurker. I sometimes post on the "other" forum known to be full of morans, but find that on ATS, there at least is the semblance of real dialogue. And I really don't have the time for it, the GF gets mad!!!

As per your post and to continue to use the number analogy, I think prior to any first cause there is a zero/infinite existing simultaneously. However, with the first mover/cause/thought, the divide is not from one to two but three. It's like there are two parts, but the third part divides them and is required for them to form/exist. And the source of that thought is the divide, almost reflected back on itself.

I guess this allows me to view something in creation that is more than the sum of its parts. Again these are only personal feelings...numbers and words often are insufficient to portray true meaning. It's like they approach the idea but never quite get there!!!

*the GF is away with her mom on vacation, so....
edit on 14-7-2011 by davidsewell because: added *


Dear davidsewell,

LOL, my ex doesn't care what I do so I am free to respond.


I understand our difference in opinion. I start with DeScartes and then correct him. I experience, I feel, I have emotions, therefore I am. This cannot logically be denied, there is sentience. All we can prove is that one exists, by definition, we can never prove zero exists. It is to disprove that we exist and that is to accept a lie.

In short, one is the beginning, two is the reflection and three is the awareness. There are only two sentient being and that creates new emotional arrangements. There was a video recently on ATS of some tribesmen meeting a white man for the first time, they were shocked and scared, this makes sense, it makes sense even if we meet ourselves for the first time, understand ourselves, know ourselves. That is the two and must exist to create the third which is merely a new combination. I fear I am to metaphysical. Be well.





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