I don't believe in "God" so why shouldn't God be taken out of the pledge?

Originally posted by guitarplayer
reply to post by gentledissident

 

didn't say you could not celebrate them just not get holliday pay for them.

Yea, I lost my mind. I started to point out that Xmas and Easter aren't Xian holidays and that the govt supports non Xian holidays and that it wouldn't make a difference and then I lost it as I am losing it now.

Originally posted by guitarplayer
reply to post by gentledissident

 

didn't say you could not celebrate them just not get holliday pay for them.

Why does the government have a Christian holiday?

Originally posted by NewAgeMan
reply to post by newcovenant

 

Since God is intrinsic to all life everywhere already always, now and forever, he would be hard to remove, from anything, so why waste your time..?

God is our very condition, but the atheist asks for "proof"!

There is no proof there is no God.
Science does not even claim evolution as a fact but a working theory with many holes in it.
But there is no proof of God either.
We are left with fragmented written evidence offering clues to the possibility of "God" and a stirring in our heart that cannot be described except to call it a spiritual longing and memory of a connection with all there is.

Originally posted by Annee

Originally posted by guitarplayer
reply to post by gentledissident

 

didn't say you could not celebrate them just not get holliday pay for them.

Why does the government have a Christian holiday?

OMG, you better not get my Xmas taken away. I have suddenly become a devout Xian....er um Christian. Onward Christian Soldiers! To the rebuttal!

Originally posted by gentledissident
OMG, you better not get my Xmas taken away. I have suddenly become a devout Xian....er um Christian. Onward Christian Soldiers! To the rebuttal!

Funny.

I remember back in the 50s my gramma pulled us out of school for St. Patrick's Day every year. The school did not like that - - my gramma all 5'1" of her told them where to stick it.

I've worked with people who've been threatened with firing for taking their own holy days off.

Yet - - the government provides both Christmas and Easter for Christians. And everyone else has to take it off too - - but are denied the right to take their own holy days.

Even when I was Christian I was a major supporter of Separation of Church and State. This is clearly and out right violation.

And since a pledge to the flag should clearly be for ALL and any citizen - - to exclude those who do not believe in a god - - is all kinds of wrong IMO.

Originally posted by dbates

Originally posted by newcovenant
The question I have I guess is, should God be taken out of the pledge if you do not believe in Him?

Thought you might find this interesting. The phrase "In God We Trust" has been stamped on our coinage since 1864.
This of course is taken from the last stanza of the Star Spangled Banner ("And this be our motto: 'In God is our trust.") which was written in 1814. I know, it's not the pledge of allegiance but our national anthem includes this phrase and it's embedded on our currency which one could argue is the most important thing to most people. I don't see how this being in the pledge is a big deal when you probably carry around and use currency with this phrase. It still spends the same doesn't it? Or would it be of more value without the phrase? Would the national anthem be better without the phrase as well?

It's heritage and history. I don't see the point in taking it out. It won't make anyone more or less of a Christian just by reciting the words.

You can't take it out of a song. But now this argument reminds me of the argument to take the N word out of all the Mark Twain books. It would change the story too much and the integrity of the authors intent. But then they were works of fiction.
I looked up what "In God We Trust" replaced and found this link. Very interesting and thanks for your reply.

The original motto of the United States was secular. "E Pluribus Unum" is Latin for "One from many" or "One from many parts." It refers to the welding of a single federal state from a group of individual political units -- originally colonies and now states.www.religioustolerance.org...

Almost a century and a half ago, eleven Protestant denominations mounted a campaign to add references to God to the U.S. Constitution and other federal documents... Chase asked the Director of the Mint, James Pollock to prepare suitable wording for a motto to be used on Union coins used during the Civil War. Pollock suggested "Our Trust Is In God," "Our God And Our Country," "God And Our Country," and "God Our Trust." Chase picked "In God We Trust" to be used on some of the government's coins. The phrase was a subtle reminder that the Union considered itself on God's side with respect to slavery.

Decades later, Theodore Roosevelt disapproved of the motto

"My own feeling in the matter is due to my very firm conviction that to put such a motto on coins, or to use it in any kindred manner, not only does no good but does positive harm, and is in effect irreverence, which comes dangerously close to sacrilege

In 1956, the nation was suffering through the height of the cold war, and the McCarthy communist witch hunt. Partly in reaction to these factors, the 84th Congress passed a joint resolution to replace the existing motto with "In God we Trust." The change was partly motivated by a desire to differentiate between communism, which promotes Atheism, and Western capitalistic democracies, which were at least nominally Christian. The phrase "Atheistic Communists" has been repeated so many times that the public has linked Atheism with communism; the two are often considered synonymous.

This goes back many years ago now, but when I said the pledge, I simply substituted god with aliens. Nobody cared. Homeroom teacher seemed busy with other things anyway.

Originally posted by ThreeNF
This goes back many years ago now, but when I said the pledge, I simply substituted god with aliens. Nobody cared. Homeroom teacher seemed busy with other things anyway.

I was in school when this change was made. When we had to learn the new pledge. None of us wanted to do it. We thought it was stupid.

Even when the government did this - "added Under God" - many did not agree with it and thought it was wrong - - and did not belong in the pledge.

There was a lot of controversy at the time it was done. It probably would have gone through if it went to a vote - - but it was just decided by the government. Citizens did not have a say in this decision.

The founding fathers believed in god and that is why it is in there

Originally posted by warren3720
The founding fathers believed in god and that is why it is in there

That is not why it is there.

"In 1954, Congress after a campaign by the Knights of Columbus, added the words, 'under God,' to the Pledge. The Pledge was now both a patriotic oath and a public prayer. Bellamy's(original author of the pledge) granddaughter said he also would have resented this second change. He had been pressured into leaving his church in 1891 because of his socialist sermons. In his retirement in Florida, he stopped attending church because he disliked the racial bigotry he found there."

It was added to combat Atheist Communism. Which was a pure slap in the face to all American Atheists - - many part of the US Military.

It was wrong to do it - - and it is still wrong.

in a short period of time, all the people who want God can gather and meet him in the air, and everyone else can keep the worthless paper to do what you want with it. to rephrase, after the rapture you can remove anything you want from money, constitutions, pledges, churches and public events. soooo.... we agree on that. good. stop the hating. your govt really isnt going to listen anyway.

reply to post by newcovenant


I'm a bit late coming into the topic and I'm sure this will have been said in this thread:

the argument is that having Under God in the pledge violates the 1st amendment. It doesn't matter if you're an atheist or a theist or are unlabeled, everyone should be against the government supporting religion as it directly contradicts the constitution. It's not just atheists. What if you were a polytheist who believed in multiple gods, now you have the official pledge of allegiance supporting a monotheistic capital G GOD.

Now personally I don't think the pledge is that big a deal (I'm an atheist btw) since they don't force kids to say it. I remember way back when in high school most didn't even say the pledge and those that did mumbled through it (about all the allegiance you can get from a teenager at 9 AM ), religious or not most kids didn't even bother. I say get rid of the pledge altogether.

reply to post by TylerDurden2U


So we have to wait for all the people who believe in that god to die? Yea, Im not gonna agree on that.

In the last years of k-12, i didn't do pledge while everyone else did.


I didn't believe in the nationalism, i didn't believe in the religion.

If you don't believe in a god, why even care? So many Atheists are getting up in arms about something they do not believe in.

Am I the only one who thinks that's weird? If some idiot got "Under the Pink Elephant We Trust" put in a pledge or on a currency somewhere, I wouldn't care. I'd find it idiotic and move on with life.

reply to post by Frontkjemper


You should be the only one confused.

Religion harms people, 911 terrorist attacks ring any bells? Muslims flying planes into buildings to get to paradise? The fact is that while we atheists don't believe the vast majority of human beings do believe in a God. That wouldn't be a problem IF they all believed in the same one (thus avoiding religious conflict) and didn't have OTHER irrational beliefs that caused direct harm. For instance in some African countries you can get killed for being gay, here in America you still can't get married in most states and are likely subject to bullying if you're open about. That's all prejudice held up by religious belief.

Or how about the children who die every year because their parents decide faith healing is a better option than real medicine. It's pretty easy to see how a belief in the supernatural can hurt people and that it's worth fighting against.

Here's another analogy just to drive it home. What if you had adult friends who still believed in Santa Claus? Like FULL on believed. They didn't buy presents for themselves or their kids and they wrote letters to this supernatural figure everyday asking him for things instead. Instead of weakening their faith in Santa Christmas only seems to strengthen it. Tell me you wouldn't be concerned with their belief and try to dissuade them. Now what if their belief was also causing harm to others around them beyond just having a disappointing holiday.

If you can't see why there are people standing up against these beliefs than you haven't thought about this for more than two seconds.

Originally posted by BobbyShaftoe
Speaking as an atheist, i think whether the word god is used is of no significance.

it is my understanding that:

God folk like the word god to be used.
Anti-god folk don't.
Atheists don't care.

Totally agree with your assertion.
I dont really understand the protest to the use of the word God myself.
I should really become offended by "stupid people" and require that they make themselves scarce.
But they wont.
Whats the difference.

Originally posted by Frontkjemper
If you don't believe in a god, why even care? So many Atheists are getting up in arms about something they do not believe in.

I cared when I was still Christian - OK?

Some people do strongly support separation of church and state - - - even when they believe in a God.

Some say we are secular government. I say what about freedom of religion and lack thereof?

And I wouldn't care what songs/poems the religious sing, but the pledge was required in school (don't think it still is). I don't care what fairy stories you sing about as long as I don't have to.

Back when I was in highschool the principal made my life hell because I wouldn't stand for the pledge. I don't pledge allegiance to any flag, nor am I religious. I continued not standing and my punishments kept piling up. I didn't follow through with any of the punishments because they were unjust. The principal eventually took it to the board of education whom said I was right (I knew it). Principal was off my azz and the punishment pile vanished.

Stand up for what you believe in, erm, well, or stay sitting down if you are in my case.

"I don't believe in "God" so why shouldn't God be taken out of the pledge?"

Because I do.

Theists range from 92% to 79% of the world's population.

Deal with it.