I don't believe in "God" so why shouldn't God be taken out of the pledge?

Originally posted by Annee

Originally posted by Echo3Foxtrot
As it has been pointed out who even says it anymore outside of school or maybe the occasional special event?

The military.

I know people like to think "God and Country" in regards to the US military - - - but there are also a lot of Atheists - Pagans - even Luciferians in the military.

So because something doesn't affect you directly - - you just dismiss it?

ya, so what, are you in the military? why are they there then?

they got some problem, like being religiously masochistic? do you think about what you write?

do THEY care? you are where? NZ?

sorry, saw two letters that made me change a line in my post.

Originally posted by gentledissident

Originally posted by Echo3Foxtrot I believe in god

I gathered that. If you didn't, I bet your argument would be different.

hey, that's a huge DOH!! facepalm!

wow.

Originally posted by Grimmley

Originally posted by Annee

Separation of Church and State is a big deal to me. That and Equal Rights.

The Separation of Church and State is not endorsing ONE religion over another as the "Offical State Religion" i.e. England being Catholic etc.. The word God, however does not violate that because God can be a generic term for any creator or God no matter the religion. Also the speration of church and state does not mean no religion in the government, that is completly wrong, Freedom of Religion is one of the biggest foundations for the forming of the country. Choose to believe in God or not, but saying that there cannot be a reference to God in a country where it was at the base of it's foundation is just silly.

Grim

God is generally used in Christianity. Loophole or not though, there's still no point keeping it in, and taking it out really won't affect anyone other than fundamentalist Christians. One could also argue that referring to a nation as diverse as America as "one nation under god" is silly. Also, free to explain why the logical idea of keeping religion out of government is wrong.

I have saved all the responses I couldn't get back to. Thread is becoming a behemoth and I can't keep up. Actually lost my stomach for it although I intend though to address each reply in time. Thanks for posting. It is a topic that gets people on and off behind and under the fence together all at the same time. Thanks for providing and making it such an interesting discussion one and all.

Originally posted by Annee

Originally posted by 2manyquestions
I honestly don't care what they do with the pledge of allegiance. If they want to say "Under the spaghetti monster", I'll not care, as long as it is not mandatory to recite and believe in.

Great! We remove Under God so the pledge is completely benign - - leave it blank with a pause - - so those who worship the spaghetti monster - or purple people eater or nothing - - - can feel in the blank or remain silent.

Love your idea.

No matter what you do, people are going to complain. Someone will be offended somewhere. We better stop everything just in case someone might get offended.

Originally posted by 2manyquestions

Originally posted by Annee

Originally posted by 2manyquestions
I honestly don't care what they do with the pledge of allegiance. If they want to say "Under the spaghetti monster", I'll not care, as long as it is not mandatory to recite and believe in.

Great! We remove Under God so the pledge is completely benign - - leave it blank with a pause - - so those who worship the spaghetti monster - or purple people eater or nothing - - - can feel in the blank or remain silent.

Love your idea.

No matter what you do, people are going to complain. Someone will be offended somewhere. We better stop everything just in case someone might get offended.

That really is a cop out answer.

Basically you are saying it should stay. Its seems clear which side you are actually taking - - even though you're trying to evade it.

reply to post by newcovenant


Even though I am not a Catholic, I think the best answer to this question was given by a Catholic priest in this YouTube video, if you care to watch it:

www.youtube.com...

Originally posted by Tib50
reply to post by newcovenant

 

Even though I am not a Catholic, I think the best answer to this question was given by a Catholic priest in this YouTube video, if you care to watch it:

www.youtube.com...

There's nothing I dread more than listening to a Catholic priest, but I went ahead and embedded the video for you. I'm God like that
BTW, what does he say?

Originally posted by Annee

Originally posted by 2manyquestions

Originally posted by Annee

Originally posted by 2manyquestions
I honestly don't care what they do with the pledge of allegiance. If they want to say "Under the spaghetti monster", I'll not care, as long as it is not mandatory to recite and believe in.

Great! We remove Under God so the pledge is completely benign - - leave it blank with a pause - - so those who worship the spaghetti monster - or purple people eater or nothing - - - can feel in the blank or remain silent.

Love your idea.

No matter what you do, people are going to complain. Someone will be offended somewhere. We better stop everything just in case someone might get offended.

That really is a cop out answer.

Basically you are saying it should stay. Its seems clear which side you are actually taking - - even though you're trying to evade it.

I'm not trying to evade anything. I'm just bored with people being offended over this or that when it's not a life and death matter and there are many more important things that should be attended to instead. If you think that changing or replacing or excluding a little word makes that much of a difference to your quality of life, be my guest and continue to discuss it. I guess it can be argued that this little word can and does have great importance to our lives, but that would be a stretch. Until someone holds a gun to your head or threatens you with jail or violence if you don't say it as it was written/rewritten, it's just not that much of a priority,... not with so many more important things are happening in the world, or even in a neighborhood near you.

Originally posted by 2manyquestions it's not a life and death matter

There's an understatement.

Originally posted by gentledissident

Originally posted by 2manyquestions it's not a life and death matter

There's an understatement.

Yeah - - just playing a little game of pinning someone to a straight answer - - other then "it doesn't matter".

It does matter to me. It may not be life and death - - but it is important to me.

Being 65 and actually in school when the pledge was changed - - I remember the different emotional expressions/sentiments.

A lot of people were not happy that the government forced this on us. And they absolutely did force God on us. The lawsuits began immediately and continue to this day. It has been a continuous fight from the beginning.

So back there in the 50s - - Christianity did have a hold on society. If you weren't Christian in public school - - too bad for you. You did Christmas and Easter whether you wanted to or not.

Before fair housing you could be denied on religious belief. Employers could choose to hire only Christians.

Separation of church and straight is extremely important to me.

Just say
"one nation, under debt"

Originally posted by Annee It may not be life and death

It is to me.

Originally posted by Annee

Originally posted by gentledissident

Originally posted by 2manyquestions it's not a life and death matter

There's an understatement.

Yeah - - just playing a little game of pinning someone to a straight answer - - other then "it doesn't matter".

Sorry that my answer is not sufficient for you. Personally (in the U.S.) I have never felt pressured to believe or not believe in God, and certainly not by this Government. In Communism they tried to pressure us to not believe in God, they looked down on those who went to church or prayed, and they very strongly promoted atheism. At the beginning of Communism they went as far as burning down churches or turned them into stalls for chickens and cows to show their disdain for religion. Here in the U.S. I don't feel like anyone is forcing me to believe one way or the other. I don't feel like this Government is promoting any particular religion. Yeah, many presidents claim to be Christian, but I don't feel like I must be Christian to be a good little citizen. I believe they do it just for votes and show anyway, since the country is predominantly Christian.

If someone added "God" into the pledge of allegiance, then perhaps it should be reverted to the original, but again is your life impacted by that little word so much that you can't go on to lead a normal life? Were you forced to recite the pledge of allegiance with the word "God" in it? Were you punished or beat by your teacher for refusing to say the word "God"? If so, years later in this century is there anyone out there still forcing you to say it? Maybe individual schools and communities may have taken it more seriously than others, but I doubt that's the case all over the country. If you live in the Bible Belt, well,... that might explain a few things. I don't remember anyone making us recite the pledge of allegiance all through High School, but then again I'm much younger than you are. I believe we did recite it in middle school, but very few kids (if any) are honestly paying attention to the words as they recite it.

It does matter to me. It may not be life and death - - but it is important to me.

Why is it so important to you? What about that phrase impacts your life and how?

Being 65 and actually in school when the pledge was changed - - I remember the different emotional expressions/sentiments.

A lot of people were not happy that the government forced this on us. And they absolutely did force God on us. The lawsuits began immediately and continue to this day. It has been a continuous fight from the beginning.

Sorry, but I don't think you know the meaning of "being forced" in this case. So you had to recite the pledge of allegiance with the word "God" in it. Have you ever been forced by the U.S. Government to abandon and hide your beliefs in fear of being punished or turned in by a neighbor? Were you visited by the C.I.A. and asked to cease your atheist activities? I sincerely doubt it.

So back there in the 50s - - Christianity did have a hold on society. If you weren't Christian in public school - - too bad for you. You did Christmas and Easter whether you wanted to or not.

That is just terrible. You HAD to join in on a party, eat chocolate bunnies and paint eggs? Yes,... this does sound rather agonizing. I'm only guessing, but maybe you had to go to church with your class and suffer through Easter or Christmas service just like all the countless kids who are bored to tears listening to the preachers preach. It's O.K. to participate without actually believing. If you live or move to a community where people are predominantly this or another, expect to stand out. If they expect you to be just like them, that pressure comes from the community, not the Federal Government. The Federal Government is a reflection of the voters. If you live in a predominantly Muslim, Christian or Buddhist country/community, expect there to be a lot of Christian, Muslim or Buddhist customs. If you didn't want to participate in Easter or Christmas practices, why didn't your parents pull you out of school on those days or asked the teachers to exclude/excuse you?

Before fair housing you could be denied on religious belief. Employers could choose to hire only Christians.

Separation of church and straight is extremely important to me.

Now that fair housing is in place, such discrimination is illegal. That means this problem is largely over and you don't need to spend any more energy thinking about it. Back in the day a lot of things were unfair. Blacks were enslaved, women couldn't vote, divorce was shameful, but we're in the 21st century now, laws have changed, and they continue to change. For all you know in 5-10-15 years the word "God" won't appear on coins, paper money, or in the pledge of allegiance, because the majority of the population will have no use for it anymore.

Originally posted by 2manyquestions Why is it so important to you?

Annee
gentledissident

reply to post by gentledissident


Thanks for embedding that video---you're very kind! Really, he explains it so simply and good-humoredly that I hope you might give him a chance...

reply to post by Tib50
I haven't had time to listen to the priest. We started out today with "The Marketing of Madness", moved on to a couple of "Sherlock" episodes, and now we're watching "The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy" series. From the YouTube comments, I'm guessing he's predictably saying, "Insert your god here". Some of us don't have gods and don't want a god concept encouraged or endorsed by the government for reasons listed in this thread and others.