I don't believe in "God" so why shouldn't God be taken out of the pledge?

Originally posted by NewAgeMan Please let me know when science discovers the truth of human existence as we really experience it, without reducing the human being to a thing, or consciousness to an epiphenomenon of matter

Do you mean that you will believe a scientist if he proves what you already believe without proof?

Originally posted by yeti101
reply to post by schuyler

 

i would say you need to take it out because it makes america look like a bunch of religious wack jobs

which actually isn't far from the truth especially the right wing.

The christian god is not factually proven.

Uh, no. Only in your eyes. Look how bigiotted your statement is. That's why we don't need you as a moral authority.

1. It's not about you.

2. It's not about "God."

3. It doesn't matter whether "God" is factually proven, especially in your biased eyes. It could be that you are as brainwashed as you claim your Christian countrymen are.

Your statement neatly lays out why a 'higher-power' is invoked. You've already tossed out freedom for the rest of us. You don't like "the right," so they don't have freedom in your world. You don't like "religious whackos" so they don't have freedom in your world. In 1776 King George III felt the same way you do. He didn't feel those colonial "whackos" had any credence whatsoever. He didn't think this "democracy" thing was superior to the Rights of Kings. He treated the colonists with the same disdain you express for people who are religious. Your contempt for them is blatant.

Fortunately our Founding Fathers realized they could not subject the country to the whims of the popular movements, that relying on personal moral authority was no better than relying on the proclamations of kings. Being your own moral authority results in selfish corruption and self-indulgence that knows no bounds. If you have only your own whims and limited experience to base your ethics, any group at all is subject to your condemnation simply because they believe in something different than you do.

Jefferson was not a "religious whacko" He was a Diest, a "May the force be with you" kind of guy. That these guys would tolerate religious freedom at all is absolutely amazing in context of their times. They embodied this idea, not in a superficial understanding of "God," but in the idea that our freedoms are not based on the whims of someone's idea of moral authority, but on something greater than the individual. They embodied this idea in the founding documents because they knew full well that the future would produce people like you, left wing whackos.

Those of you interested in how modern theologians treat the concept of religion, God, and the Christian religion may be interested in David Meier's 4-volume, "A Marginal Jew" on the life of Jesus, or even Albert Schweizer's "The Quest for the Historical Jesus" first printed in 1901. You will find that far from 'religious whackos,' their thoughts on these matters are far deeper than the superficial railings found on ATS. They've taken the issues you so cavalierly dismiss and taken them far deeper in their quest for understanding.

Originally posted by NewAgeMan
reply to post by SaturnFX

 

Religion without science is blind, yes, on that we agree.

Please let me know when science discovers the truth of human existence as we really experience it, without reducing the human being to a thing, or consciousness to an epiphenomenon of matter, at which point we might begin to have even more in common.

What truth? the biological/chemical functions of it all?

not following...

Science does not seek out meaning, only understanding
Philosophy is for meaning.

reply to post by newcovenant
As B. Franklin said, there is two ways of thinking. There is right thinking, people who recognize the evidence in all things that God exists. Then there is the wrong thinkers who for one reason or another, denies Gods existence. God does not require our faith in Him to exist, His laws still have power over us. That is we still suffer the consequences of breaking his laws whether we like it or not. As it is said in the scriptures, an atheist is a fool. No insult intended, people have the right to believe or disbelief, but that does not free us from the consequences of our choices.This is reality.

reply to post by newcovenant

All this useless talk about taking God out, all the while what's really being taken out is freedom. When freedom is gone than all the useless talk will be turned into tears and crying. And then the reality of what happened while many were wasting their precious time looking in all the wrong places will be realized, but by then it will have been too late for most.
For the past 40 years freedom has been taken for granted, money and entertainment has become the new god in this spoiled rotten society.

Originally posted by georgewvess
reply to post by newcovenant

 

As B. Franklin said, there is two ways of thinking. There is right thinking, people who recognize the evidence in all things that God exists. Then there is the wrong thinkers who for one reason or another, denies Gods existence. God does not require our faith in Him to exist, His laws still have power over us. That is we still suffer the consequences of breaking his laws whether we like it or not. As it is said in the scriptures, an atheist is a fool. No insult intended, people have the right to believe or disbelief, but that does not free us from the consequences of our choices.This is reality.

Where is the source for this quote?

Benjamin Franklin was a very interesting and controversial man. He was a Deist and sometimes Atheist.

You first have to understand the Deist concept of God before understanding any references to God from a Deist perspective.

"Some books against Deism fell into my hands; they were said to be the substance of sermons preached at Boyle's lectures. It happened that they wrought an effect on me quite contrary to what was intended by them; for the arguments of the deists, which were quoted to be refuted, appeared to me much stronger than the refutations; in short, I soon became a thorough deist." Benjamin Franklin

moderndeism.com...

Originally posted by IgnorantiaNegant
The pledge itself wasn't always around, and as someone already been pointed out, "Under God" was added even more recently. I think it ought to be changed though. How about "One nation under the Constitution, indivisible, and with liberty and justice for all"? It's secular, without being anti-religious, and I don't think anyone would have a problem reciting it. I'm not religious and I'm not part of the Tea Party movement, still I think it would be healthy for the people taking the pledge on a regular basis, as well as the President himself upon inauguration, to be reminded of the founding principles of the country, as opposed to a religious view which just happens to be held by a large portion of the country.

That's not a bad idea. It should definitely fit today and our needs for today. Kind of like amendments to the constitution.

I still stand strong that it must be written for ALL citizens - - and that would include Atheists.

God is a personal choice - - - and does not belong in a pledge to a flag of a secular government.

reply to post by newcovenant


Ok all the atheists you want under God take off the pledge because we are a secular government. Then by all means do it and while you’re at it let remove all religious holiday vacation days that government employees get paid for, and I sure don’t see how you could possible take that Christmas bonus and Thanks giving day off with pay too all you who sdon't work for the government. I just know you all say no pay for me or I’m willing to come to work and earn my religious holiday pay.

Why must every subject be so divisive?

Can modern man not have any harmony whatsoever?

It seems that every subject is rife with either/or thinking and that is just not a good interpretation of reality.

It gets old, having to defend the reality of more than one paradigm, so if you left/right, up/downers could catch up, we'd all greatly appreciate it.

Maybe then we could be more than just thumbed monkeys.

reply to post by newcovenant


Being as God/Christianity was the foundation of this country (and yes, we have fallen far too far from that) removal of that foundation will cause the fall of said edifice.

You can see the results of this easily. Corruption is rampant, we have brown shirts at the airport, we have all of these idiot kids (backed by who knows who) screaming "kill whitey". yeah. As an aside, it would be interesting to see the reports if they were skinheads doing the reverse. Oh, wait. Only whitey is racist.

Back on point.

If someone is an atheist and has an issue with our foundation, they are welcome to take their happy ass to any of four points. they are not needed and they are not doing us any favors by bitchin about the rest of us that are trying to patch our foundations.

Originally posted by Turkenstein
reply to post by newcovenant

 

You are just fishing for attention and multiple replies. Talk to your momma if you are not getting enough attention.

Are you basing this on anything factual or do you just have a bug up your bum?
A good colonic will straighten you right out, since we are sharing advice.

Originally posted by guitarplayer
reply to post by newcovenant

 

Ok all the atheists you want under God take off the pledge because we are a secular government. Then by all means do it and while you’re at it let remove all religious holiday vacation days that government employees get paid for, and I sure don’t see how you could possible take that Christmas bonus

OK - - let's do it.

I'm all for it.

Originally posted by tomten
reply to post by newcovenant

 

I'm an atheist.
But I would like "under God" to remain in the pledge.
Because of tradition.

I don't agree to have kids saying the pledge at school though.
I get a feeling of Nazi-Germany's Hitlerjugend when I see that.

edit on 2011-6-27 by tomten because: added more

This is a generous sentiment. I have been reading recently about a group of devout Jews who want to give up some of their West Banks settlements to Palestine and end the fighting. This was a generous offer too. It is a mark of integrity and remarkable courage to relinquish something you deeply believe is your own, for the greater good. Until I started this thread I had not considered that the pledge itself is a manipulating and subtle tool for allegiance and control smacking of Nazi Germany as you say. More and more it is sounding that way to me.
Maybe we should all just sign a contract of allegiance and be done with it. Making children recite something before they know what it means and before they understand it does seem contrived.

Originally posted by CaptGizmo
I don't like cigarettes should they be banned? I also don't like Brussels sprouts, should they be banned? Atheist seem to think the world should change for their small minority. The fact that Atheist think we should take the wording "One Nation Under God" out of the pledge is kind of like one religion trying to tell the rest of us how and what we should do, even though I may not believe in their beliefs. It's hypocritical and just another group trying to impose their will upon others. Atheist are doing the same thing. No one forces you to recite the pledge of allegiance. I don't remember being forced to do it in school. and that was a long time ago.

Simply idiotic. None of those are even remotely comparable to the pledge of allegiance. God not being mentioned whatsoever isn't imposing atheism on anyone. It's not hypocritical at all. If it were mentioning that there are no gods whatsoever, then yes, that would be imposing atheism. If you want to believe this country is one nation under god, fine, that's your belief, just keep your beliefs out of the official pledge.

Originally posted by IgnorantiaNegant
The pledge itself wasn't always around, and as someone already been pointed out, "Under God" was added even more recently. I think it ought to be changed though. How about "One nation under the Constitution, indivisible, and with liberty and justice for all"? It's secular, without being anti-religious, and I don't think anyone would have a problem reciting it. I'm not religious and I'm not part of the Tea Party movement, still I think it would be healthy for the people taking the pledge on a regular basis, as well as the President himself upon inauguration, to be reminded of the founding principles of the country, as opposed to a religious view which just happens to be held by a large portion of the country.

Hard for right-wingers to argue against this proposal.

Originally posted by FoosM

Originally posted by newcovenant

Originally posted by AzureSky
Athiests just need to stop taking everything as a personal shot at what they believe in. Who gives a damn, who or what someone believes in.

Use some common sense. Let people display what they want to display, they do it for a reason other than to piss atheists off. So don't take it personally and we'll all be a lot happier.

This is a very good point.
People do not do this to be offensive and so I think the burden of proving the offense should be on the offended. How are you injured? I would ask.

Well I guess what you are saying is that you wouldn't care if it were taken out.
Amirite?

At first I was offended but I realize my reaction was purely emotional and a little irrational.
Now I wouldn't care if it were taken out and as a compromise a pregnant pause in its place so that people may or may not insert Christ, Buddha, Allah or whomever they choose. Religion is already very divisive and there should not be more reasons to segment us into groups.
If I and my parents did not believe in God and I was a child and forced to recite such a thing I think it would unduly affect me and be a little traumatic. I would not feel FREE. I would feel tricked and forced into something that I did not agree with.
Although "under God" is better for me, I think a moment of silence instead is better for all.

And I campaigned and signed petitions to have it put back to its original status - - when I was still Christian.

Because its just plain wrong to have Under God in the pledge. All citizens do not believe in a God.

Originally posted by yrwehere1
reply to post by newcovenant

 

I look at it this way, "Say the pledge if you want, the way you want." After all, the last time I checked, this is still America and you still have the freedom of speech, so use it!

edit on 27-6-2011 by yrwehere1 because: change wording

I agree but I think there are some teachers in some schools who will make sure every child recites the pledge completely out loud over and over again until they learn it verbatim and can recite it on command. Somebody had better tell THEM this is America. They think it is their America and it's their rules. Fact is we kind of share the place.

Originally posted by guitarplayerChristmas

I have nothing to do on Thanksgiving or Easter anyway. But Xmas is for toys and parties.

Here's a preacher guy who says we shouldn't celebrate Xmas and Easter.
godkind.org...

Easter, Halloween, and Christmas are the three major religious celebrations of professing Christianity today. And all three violate the instructions of God concerning false Gods and false religious practices.

It's odd that he says Christains claim Halloween as well

As long as I have toys, fireworks, and scary masks, I'm a happy citizen.

reply to post by gentledissident


didn't say you could not celebrate them just not get holliday pay for them.

Originally posted by GodIsPissed
reply to post by newcovenant

 

Are we not proof of an intelligent design(God)?

Is life not proof of God?

So the real question here is..do you believe we came from nothing,or something?That something being God or whatever it was that created all!

Why after all these years of making us believe God existed are they making us believe he doesn't exist?You can see it everywhere.Especially on Tv.Why the denouncement of God after all these years?Why do we still have to swear on the bible then?I mean is it official?Did the president come out on Tv and say.."God doesn't exist"?Has it been proven?What are all those holy wars about?Just a bunch a "crazy people" fighting for nothing I suppose?

And what about all the promoting of Satan?Is that part of our imagination too?And all the Satanic subliminal messages put into our kids shows,is that just our imagination too?

People ask for proof but it's everywhere just look around!Look in the mirror!That's proof!

You also make a good point. And I believe you.

But there is only ONE REAL commandment if you are Christian

Love God with all your heart, all your mind and all your soul.

There is a second, but it is almost like the first.

Love your brother as yourself.

God does not ask that we recite a blessing everyday for our country.

Perhaps we should keep the focus on Him and not on what men want us to say?