Birthers: We Were Right. The BC is a FRAUD!!! Obama Lovers: Debunk THIS!

Originally posted by DZAG Wright
If he submitted the actual document for all to see and DUPLICATE he would open himself to fraud or identity theft.

What criminal in their right mind would try to steal the identity of the POTUS? Where do you dig up this stuff? I think I know, but manners are important here, so I won't say.

Don't you think there are far easier targets? :shk:

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
I can't believe that a "professional" would be so utterly lacking in facts... But most of the graphics, scanning, documentation 'professionals" showing up to claim that this is a "fake", don't really seem to have any...

Thanks BH.

I do graphics too - - but am no expert.

Even I know you can not prove anything one way or the other from a digital copy on the internet.

Yes - you can open it in various programs and get different results. It proves nothing.

This is really so stupid.

Originally posted by derst1988
Oh really? They did, did they? I have not read this anywhere. I have read that it is supposed to be a direct scan of the original, signed by the state registrar and sent to DC. Please provide links. google isnt helping your case.

You might want to show me where you read that. I am eager to hear of the magic that makes a black and white entry in a book generate its own green safety paper background.

Now I got time traveling, alien DNA, and it seems like you are suggesting magic.

Originally posted by yadboy
As I said a few pages back, I'm done with this debate, it's useless. I harbor no ill will toward you or the others in the thread I disagree with, but I don't enjoy wasting my time either.

I have formed my opinion on this issue, arguing the point back and forth with internet trolls is a poor use of my time.

Mighty big of you to not harbor ill will to "internet trolls"

Buh bye...

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic

Here's why you're seeing the anomalies you're seeing. I suggest you watch this video and then take the same steps on your birth certificate to see what you get.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Member AshleyD took these steps and repeated all the anomalies on a simple document. Here are her posts on her findings:
www.abovetopsecret.com...
www.abovetopsecret.com...

And as a professional, I would think you would realize that when you're looking at a PDF of Obama's BC, you're NOT looking at a document, you're looking at ones and zeroes on a computer screen. As a professional, you should know that a document cannot be verified as TRUE or FALSE by looking at a digital representation of it.

You know that, right?

OK, for grins I just finished replicating the procedure in the first video with my birth certificate I was born in 1960 and my birth certificate has the same green safety background as OBAMA's. I did exactly what was done in the video step for step and I got one layer containing two objects which each contained one image and one blank clipping path. For some reason it separated the top 80% of the image from the bottom 20%. There was none of this isolation of any objects or resizing of anything. That was a load of crap.

After reading Ashley's threads I only have to say it is the biggest load of crap I have seen on this topic. These people know no bounds. They will write the biggest load of crap to confuse the average Joe thus making them think it must have made sense because it sounded good and thorough. I can assure you the Hawaiian folks did not apply this process or anything resembling this process to scan their documents, not that this or any other process would conceivably do what is claimed in her threads. When you have thousands to millions of documents to scan the process is never so elaborate, there is no reason for it to be. There is a scan of the document resulting in a high quality TIFF raster image, and OCR is done on the image to populate a database record with the information on the document. When a copy is requested a query is made to the database to locate the TIFF image and it is printed. One additional option is to have an XML file created alongside the TIFF which can be used by various programs for storing metadata on the object TIFF. Prior to computers a simple microfiche copy of the document is made with limited data entered into a hard copy index to help locate the record.

I read Ashley's other posts and I know all about PDF and how it effects the OCR scans on a document. IN no case does it make a document appear to have different data types for different portions of the document. Nor does it copy a rasterized portion of the document and copy it to other areas of the document. Only a human operator forging a document can do that. The only way a PDF will replace text is if set it to place OCR'd text over the image in which case all the text would be extremely consistent in density and alignment, this exactly what we DON'T see in the Obama long form birth certificate, which means what we are seeing is the actual image (or fake edited image) of the original.

In any case, even if you could process the hell out of a document to cause a few optical anomalies it would not account for a fraction of the evidence that the Obama birth certificate was tampered with.

These liberal hacks can't be swallowing their own Kool-Aid, no one is that stupid. I have never seen a heavier presence of them anywhere than in these threads attacking the integrity of Obama. What possible reason could anyone have for believing a man with a track record of nothing but lies. I can only wonder how much it costs him to pay these trolls. I agree with these other sensible posters, pay no mind to these posers. Don't let it detract from an otherwise intelligent exchange of information. Their comments are not worthy of a response.

Originally posted by TrueAmerican

Originally posted by DZAG Wright
If he submitted the actual document for all to see and DUPLICATE he would open himself to fraud or identity theft.

What criminal in their right mind would try to steal the identity of the POTUS? Where do you dig up this stuff? I think I know, but manners are important here, so I won't say.

Don't you think there are far easier targets? :shk:

Believe me, someone of criminal mind has considered the idea. There are many famous people who have to battle with identity theft. I'm sure there's someone out there who thinks he looks just like Obama.

That isn't the issue though, does it not seem logical that the NSA would advise Obama against posting the ACTUAL birth certificate? Use some logic and critical thinking...

reply to post by ArJunaBug


Are you willing to post your unaltered birth certificate?

"I say again...

Of course the NSA and other security persons for the WH and Presidency would require the President to not submit his actual unaltered BC. If he submitted the actual document for all to see and DUPLICATE he would open himself to fraud or identity theft."

Oh YEA!!! Another Obama birther thread!! Why dont you guys just give this a rest already! I mean the man has been POTUS for 3 years now and will most likely win re-election next year! Most of us are soooooo tired of these same threads popping up with some newly found info that will just prove your point! Well after 3 years you still havent proved anything but showing people what to do if you are really interested in WASTING your time and life!! All birthers need to find hobbies and just move on with this lil thing called life! Its past irritating at this point!!

Originally posted by DZAG Wright
reply to post by ArJunaBug

 

Are you willing to post your unaltered birth certificate?

"I say again...

Of course the NSA and other security persons for the WH and Presidency would require the President to not submit his actual unaltered BC. If he submitted the actual document for all to see and DUPLICATE he would open himself to fraud or identity theft."

I do not understand. What do you propose is on the "real" version that is not on the released version? My birth certificate has all the same information as his, nothing more, nothing less. Except mine has an actual embossed stamp on it because it is an original.

o.k., If you believe that Barack Sr. was an American citizen, thereby enabling Barack Jr. to be eligible to be POTUS, how do you believe that he got that way?
To be a natural born american, both parents have to be american citizens.
John McCain was vetted. Barack Obama jr. refused.

Originally posted by Southern Guardian

There are many birthers who dislike Obama over the basis of race and they make a good effort of hiding it behind the birther conspiracy.

OBama is NOT black. He's white and black. Mommy was a caucasian.

You can't incite Race into why people don't like Obama. He ain't black.

reply to post by ArJunaBug


I have no idea what the difference could be, perhaps the difference is what all the "birthers" are yahooing about.

I posted this earlier...a Private in the military is given a background check that would expose if they were here illegal. Do you not suppose that someone running for PRESIDENT would have to endure even more investigating?

Are you and every other birther saying that the NSA, CIA, FBI, IMS, Congress and all the other agencies have been fooled and are incompetent?

Originally posted by Pervius

Originally posted by Southern Guardian

There are many birthers who dislike Obama over the basis of race and they make a good effort of hiding it behind the birther conspiracy.

OBama is NOT black. He's white and black. Mommy was a caucasian.

You can't incite Race into why people don't like Obama. He ain't black.

In the eyes of racist white American's he's black, and do not play dumb as if you wouldn't know this.

There are two types of birthers: those who are racist and can't accept the president is (in their eyes black), and crazy people who don't really know what they're saying if they think the President wasn't eligible.

THE RACIST: will attempt to hide behind EVERY thing other than his race because they're too ashamed to admit that they are racist. They will claim it's his policies and that he's a marxist, socialist, when he hasn't done ANYTHING to deserve that label. If that were the case, the world we live in would be VERY different. It seems like the same old world to me! Everything hasn't been nationalized! We aren't all in concentration camps! All the private business' haven't been seized by the government! So, EXACTLY WHAT HAS HE DONE to earn the title of marxist, socialist? You nor any other birther can answer that. The only possible thing you can use is the health care reform...and that is a creation of.....REPUBLICANS!

Here's how brilliant Obama is, and how he's exposing the racist. He's basically governing using Republican tactics and policies! Near everything he's done, is what we would expect a Republican to do. Yet, somehow, we still have those who claim their disdain for Obama is because he's a Liberal, Socialist...when his policies have been far from such.

If he had brought all the troops home, given us single payor healthcare, etc., I could then understand Repub's not liking his policies. But he hasn't to the point where myself and others who supported him, may no longer support him. He's attempted to work with Repub's TOO much.

THE CONSPIRACISTS: They are the other faction who maybe birthers due to their untrusting, always looking for "the truth", paranoid ways. Though many of them betray other reasons also, because if they are truly aware, they would know that who is President doesn't matter. That BIG, OLD money is what runs this world and the President is just a talking head. So what reason would they have to continue digging conspiracies concerning Obama up? Someone who's aware wouldn't care if Fred Flinstone was in office!

So actually, many of the birthers who are conspiracists, are also racist and don't want to admit it.

Originally posted by roadtoad
o.k., If you believe that Barack Sr. was an American citizen, thereby enabling Barack Jr. to be eligible to be POTUS, how do you believe that he got that way?
To be a natural born american, both parents have to be american citizens.
John McCain was vetted. Barack Obama jr. refused.

Where do you get YOUR information there sport?

Show me where IN the Constitution, or in US Code it says that. Show me where Obama refused to be vetted?

I'm SO tired of people who live their lives via propaganda blogs jumping into conversations they haven't read trying to tell us things that are off-topic, and have been addressed and dismissed light years ago.

Originally posted by Annee

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic

 

I can't believe that a "professional" would be so utterly lacking in facts... But most of the graphics, scanning, documentation 'professionals" showing up to claim that this is a "fake", don't really seem to have any...

Thanks BH.

I do graphics too - - but am no expert.

Even I know you can not prove anything one way or the other from a digital copy on the internet.

Yes - you can open it in various programs and get different results. It proves nothing.

This is really so stupid.

reply to post by Annee

Having followed along, against my better sense I would like to comment.

I am in agreement with both yourself and Benevolent Heretic on the matter of the anomalies present in the document.

We already have enough "experts" commenting so I will describe my qualifications as a hobbyist with roughly 10 years of experience with the program, some of that time actually being paid (Truthfully, Autocad is more my game but Photoshop is often a welcome tool in the arsenal )

I can confidently say that I know my way around Photoshop well enough to easily understand the argument being put forth by some and it is silly from my perspective.

Contrary to the previous "experts" assertion,I certainly believe ATS member AshleyD has shown the anomalies in question are easily recreated following a simple procedural doctrine that meets all of the necessary criteria demanded by the birther crowd and requires no leap of faith or exotic circumstance to recreate.

reply to post by AshleyD

Originally posted by AshleyD
Anyone who wants to duplicate the process, here is exactly what I did:

1) Create a document:
a. Find a blank form online.
b. Add typed text to some fields.
c. Print.
d. Add handwriting to some fields.

2) Scan document.
a. No special optimization needed. A straight up scan still yielded results.
b. It will be something like a jpeg on your computer (that is what it was for me).

3) Convert to PDF.
a. Illustrator won't open a regular image so it must be PDF.
b. I used a free online tool and a down loadable tool.

4). Optimize PDF.
a. Ignore the OCR
b. Just optimize and compress.

You should see something similar to the screen shots I posted above.

Just exactly which part of the above is

the biggest load of crap I have seen on this topic.

and

the biggest load of crap to confuse the average Joe thus making them think it must have made sense because it sounded good and thorough

?

In my opinion based on my own experience with the software and the information discovered thus far in the various threads on the matter that Ashley D has provided an very strong case in support of her conclusions.

Having read thoroughly to be sure I understood the gist,the vitriolic rebuttal presented by ATS member ArJunaBug reads as a poorly constructed attempt to muddy the issue with irrelevant technical verbiage trying to build a strawman argument whose strongest point is a very transparent appeal to authority.

ArJunaBug, your accusations toward Ashley D not only dishonestly represent the content of her post, they ironically mirror the bulk of content in your rebuttal.

I have to ask, was the above purposeful in some attempted manipulation of reader perception or was that more a product of your subconscious, some type of freudian slip?

I'm not trying to level undue criticism your way ArJunaBug, bad form either way you slice it and I'm just telling it like I see it.

If I may offer a bit of advice, nobody likes a bully.


I am at a loss to understand some posters motivation at this point. Conviction and tenacity are admirable but having to rely on logical fallacy, misrepresentation and thinly veiled mob hostility to support your case would be a hint to most that there is no substance to the argument in question.

There isn't always a conspiracy behind every event that some may disagree with.

I know a few of you have been hearing this often, but perhaps with good reason on this one? Sometimes the better part of valor is in admitting you were wrong and moving on.

reply to post by DZAG Wright


Here I made this just for you.
[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/3bef1fd2d89f.jpg[/atsimg]
Sorry your card has been overdrawn and will now be destroyed.

Originally posted by ArJunaBug

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic

Here's why you're seeing the anomalies you're seeing. I suggest you watch this video and then take the same steps on your birth certificate to see what you get.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Member AshleyD took these steps and repeated all the anomalies on a simple document. Here are her posts on her findings:
www.abovetopsecret.com...
www.abovetopsecret.com...

And as a professional, I would think you would realize that when you're looking at a PDF of Obama's BC, you're NOT looking at a document, you're looking at ones and zeroes on a computer screen. As a professional, you should know that a document cannot be verified as TRUE or FALSE by looking at a digital representation of it.

You know that, right?

OK, for grins I just finished replicating the procedure in the first video with my birth certificate I was born in 1960 and my birth certificate has the same green safety background as OBAMA's. I did exactly what was done in the video step for step and I got one layer containing two objects which each contained one image and one blank clipping path. For some reason it separated the top 80% of the image from the bottom 20%. There was none of this isolation of any objects or resizing of anything. That was a load of crap.

After reading Ashley's threads I only have to say it is the biggest load of crap I have seen on this topic. These people know no bounds. They will write the biggest load of crap to confuse the average Joe thus making them think it must have made sense because it sounded good and thorough. I can assure you the Hawaiian folks did not apply this process or anything resembling this process to scan their documents, not that this or any other process would conceivably do what is claimed in her threads. When you have thousands to millions of documents to scan the process is never so elaborate, there is no reason for it to be. There is a scan of the document resulting in a high quality TIFF raster image, and OCR is done on the image to populate a database record with the information on the document. When a copy is requested a query is made to the database to locate the TIFF image and it is printed. One additional option is to have an XML file created alongside the TIFF which can be used by various programs for storing metadata on the object TIFF. Prior to computers a simple microfiche copy of the document is made with limited data entered into a hard copy index to help locate the record.

I read Ashley's other posts and I know all about PDF and how it effects the OCR scans on a document. IN no case does it make a document appear to have different data types for different portions of the document. Nor does it copy a rasterized portion of the document and copy it to other areas of the document. Only a human operator forging a document can do that. The only way a PDF will replace text is if set it to place OCR'd text over the image in which case all the text would be extremely consistent in density and alignment, this exactly what we DON'T see in the Obama long form birth certificate, which means what we are seeing is the actual image (or fake edited image) of the original.

In any case, even if you could process the hell out of a document to cause a few optical anomalies it would not account for a fraction of the evidence that the Obama birth certificate was tampered with.

These liberal hacks can't be swallowing their own Kool-Aid, no one is that stupid. I have never seen a heavier presence of them anywhere than in these threads attacking the integrity of Obama. What possible reason could anyone have for believing a man with a track record of nothing but lies. I can only wonder how much it costs him to pay these trolls. I agree with these other sensible posters, pay no mind to these posers. Don't let it detract from an otherwise intelligent exchange of information. Their comments are not worthy of a response.

As one of the few people who have also tried to reproduce these anommalies by scanning a document, I concur it is impossible to reproduce anything like the Obama certificate with out intentionally creating it with digital software.
However I still believe this is all an experiment to see how far they can con the American public before people start believing the conspiracy theorists and when that happens they will release the original document and then the public will never ever believe anything we say again, and then that is when something big will happen.

Originally posted by DZAG Wright

Originally posted by Pervius

Originally posted by Southern Guardian

There are many birthers who dislike Obama over the basis of race and they make a good effort of hiding it behind the birther conspiracy.

OBama is NOT black. He's white and black. Mommy was a caucasian.

You can't incite Race into why people don't like Obama. He ain't black.

In the eyes of racist white American's he's black, and do not play dumb as if you wouldn't know this.

There are two types of birthers: those who are racist and can't accept the president is (in their eyes black), and crazy people who don't really know what they're saying if they think the President wasn't eligible.

THE RACIST: will attempt to hide behind EVERY thing other than his race because they're too ashamed to admit that they are racist. They will claim it's his policies and that he's a marxist, socialist, when he hasn't done ANYTHING to deserve that label. If that were the case, the world we live in would be VERY different. It seems like the same old world to me! Everything hasn't been nationalized! We aren't all in concentration camps! All the private business' haven't been seized by the government! So, EXACTLY WHAT HAS HE DONE to earn the title of marxist, socialist? You nor any other birther can answer that. The only possible thing you can use is the health care reform...and that is a creation of.....REPUBLICANS!

Here's how brilliant Obama is, and how he's exposing the racist. He's basically governing using Republican tactics and policies! Near everything he's done, is what we would expect a Republican to do. Yet, somehow, we still have those who claim their disdain for Obama is because he's a Liberal, Socialist...when his policies have been far from such.

If he had brought all the troops home, given us single payor healthcare, etc., I could then understand Repub's not liking his policies. But he hasn't to the point where myself and others who supported him, may no longer support him. He's attempted to work with Repub's TOO much.

THE CONSPIRACISTS: They are the other faction who maybe birthers due to their untrusting, always looking for "the truth", paranoid ways. Though many of them betray other reasons also, because if they are truly aware, they would know that who is President doesn't matter. That BIG, OLD money is what runs this world and the President is just a talking head. So what reason would they have to continue digging conspiracies concerning Obama up? Someone who's aware wouldn't care if Fred Flinstone was in office!

So actually, many of the birthers who are conspiracists, are also racist and don't want to admit it.

What the hell has this got to do with a possible fraudulent document. This has nothing to do with politics or race it is about whether the evidence proves the document was digitally altered.
If people really want to know they can do the experiment for themselves.

Originally posted by DZAG Wright
reply to post by ArJunaBug

 

Are you willing to post your unaltered birth certificate?

"I say again...

Of course the NSA and other security persons for the WH and Presidency would require the President to not submit his actual unaltered BC. If he submitted the actual document for all to see and DUPLICATE he would open himself to fraud or identity theft."

Doing what you say would also be a crime in itself.

reply to post by roadtoad


Your assertion is patently false as has been demonstrated dozens of times in various Obama birth threads.

The parents of a POTUS candidate are subject to no such requirement. This has been repeatedly proven wrong ad-nauseum.

I cant help but comment on what seems to be a bit of an contradiction surrounding all this hoopla.

For a group who reference patriotism and loyalty to the constitution as a primary motivation in this obvious farce, quite a few of the folks screaming fraud are either willfully misrepresenting or woefully ignorant of what the document really says or does not say.

I must admit, it would be comical if there wasn't so much misguided hatred being tossed about.

Once again folks, don't take this stuff at face value as presented on youtube. Do your own research, if you don't understand some bit or another, do more research to fill in the blanks so when you step up to the plate you know of what you speak rather than quickly showing that you bought into more ignorant misinformation.

Honestly, you've got lots of people spreading falsehoods as facts. Why no cries of outing the disinfo agent? Isn't this what disinfo agents do, knowingly spread falsehoods and lies about things like constituitional law?

And how about the sheeple? Aren't they the ones who mindlessly buy into whatever they are told without thinking for themselves. Eagerly buying into "I'm an expert, trust me" because it falls in line with what they are pressured to believe? Oh, the irony...