WANTED 1 intelligent educated Christian to answer some questions on faith

Funny thread.

All you will get is

BIBLE QUOTE BIBLE QUOTE BIBLE QUOTE BIBLE QUOTE BIBLE QUOTE BIBLE QUOTE BIBLE QUOTE BIBLE QUOTE BIBLE QUOTE BIBLE QUOTE BIBLE QUOTE BIBLE QUOTE BIBLE QUOTE BIBLE QUOTE.

Because the Bible is the only point of reference they can logically draw upon, and the writing in a book is as useful as a source as the trash in my bin.

You simply cannot get a solid answer from a believer which does not involve faith...unfortunately faith cannot be tested or proven and so makes an excellent rebuttal "excuse".

reply to post by Vicky32


LOL

Im an Aussie not American *represses the urge to make sheep jokes*

Another one who wants to play word games and imagines attacks where there are none.

Not proven at all! (For instance, I am religious, you're not, yet I know that the word 'smart' doesn't mean intelligent except in the USA, ie., in one dialect descended from the English language. (It actually means elegant and well-dressed) Likewise, dumb doesn't mean stupid, it means mute.

Yes and gay means "happy" and artificial means "artistic skill" or at least they did once, language evolves and it isnt the words that are important but the message they are trying to convey. Did you understand my meaning? Im pretty sure you did so the words were used correctly. I did clarify for people like yourself how I meant for dumb to be interpreted

Yes, I have heard of it. What do you expect me to think? I know Sir Lord Professor Herr Dawkins and his disciples Harris and Hitchens, say that various fraud was committed there, but that's not true.

What do I expect you to think, not sure but I would expect an INTELLIGENT and EDUCATED christian to have an opinion, everything you believe as a christian was decided at that council. Voted on in fact and normally a close vote, more than 3/4 of the works about jesus were destroyed. Its the sort of thing an intelligent or even curious non blind faith follower might be keen to learn more about.

I've seen the lists of contradictions on atheist sites, and I am unimpressed. They're mostly wrong!

true or they rely on various interpretations of ancient texts which can be damaged or copied incorrectly. The best example I can think of which is indisputable is jesus last words. Check what the apostles have to say about it.

You're showing your bias by using the term indoctrinated... and proving you're not genuine when you say your thread is not intended to attack anyone. Of course it is! But playing your reindeer game, I was not 'indoctrinated' (atheist parents). I found God when I was 19, and how long have you got?

–verb (used with object), -nat·ed, -nat·ing.
1. to instruct in a doctrine, principle, ideology, etc., especially to imbue with a specific partisan or biased belief or point of view.
2. to teach or inculcate.
3. to imbue with learning.

The negative conotation is your own when teaching someone about religion its generally called by this term but seeing how good you are with the english language I would have thought you knew this.
If you take the time to write it Ill take the time to read it and be appreciative of your effort.

See my answer to question 1. What do you expect me to think?

Once again I assumed any non blind follower would have some opinion, I wasnt looking to have someone validate my thoughts but was genuinely curious what people thought.

There are billions of Christians. Only a minority of them are in the USA, which I presume is all you know about it. So what do I think Jesus would say about the state of Christianity now? For one thing, he'd realise it's not all one great monolithic thing!

Billions is a slight exaggeration I think but yes there are alot and a very vocal group of them are in the US but never having been to the States myself I cant confirm that.
I dont understand the monolithic reference

Originally posted by IkNOwSTuffThis is not a thread designed to attack anyone or their beliefs

Of course it is! Be like Madness and his buddies, be honest and admit your real motives...

No it really wasnt, if you read the entire thread you would have noticed i had 3 intelligent non confrontational discussions in which I thanked the 3 of them for their intelligent responses.

On the flip side I also spoke to a couple nuff nuffs who just reinforced what I think of the majority of IsmISTs which is unintelligent, insecure and unnescessarily hostile to anyone who doesnt blindly follow their form of IsmISM.

But out of morbid curiosity I need to ask, what could you possibly think my motives are?

P.s thanks for answering my questions, Im certain you misunderstood me and I dont agree with you but I appreciate you took the time. Star for you

reply to post by Crutchley29


LOL I was sorta expecting that would be the case but Im pleased to say had a few very eloquent and intelligent god botherers post and they made sense.

P.s how many people do you think will post and complain about me using the term god botherers?
I can see it now " you said God botherer so your blatantly in league with the devil" or some such nonsense LOL

Not a Christian, but I know that there are Christians who would answer the same way, and especially some Catholics (of relevance, because of your questions about them).

1) have you heard of the council of Nicea?
Yes.

what do you think of it?
It put the Arian heresy on the ropes. Nice update of the Apostles' Creed. Punted on the Third Person of the Trilogy. I suppose that's what passes for productivity if you're in that line of work.

2) How do you rationalise the contradictions in the bible?
The majority of Christians are not sola scriptura, mostly being either Roman Catholic or Eastern Orthodox. Of the Christians who are, most of them aren't literalists and inerrantists.

I suspect that even the very few who are atheists' fantasy believers don't think it matters much to their own relationship with God whether Jesus died on a Thursday instead of on a Friday. Imagine how much they care whether Jehosephat had 300 sheep in Gilead or 3000 in Jahenna.

(I also wonder why atheists pursue that line against Christians. It's Islam that claims their holy book comes straight from God, through Gabriel, through Mohammed, through whoever thought to stop memorizing it and start writing it down. For Jews and Christians, the authors are human beings, and for the Christian New Testament, human authorship is cucial to the central claim that some things actually happened, as historical events.)

3) how old were you when you were indoctrinated or did you find God on your own? if so what brought him/her into your life?
Most Christians belong to churches that practice infant baptism. Those churches also typically accept adult converts, of course, although many of them already had a relationship with God, and their "conversion" is a change of affiliation within the range of theisms.

Anecdotally, I do have some non-believer friends who report that their young children, who had never been to church, began to ask about why their friends did go to church as the children approached school age.

What I take away from that is that I don't think it would be seriously possible to grow up in the industrialized West and not to have encountered the idea of God by a very young age. Whether the idea appeals or not is personal. After all, not everybody who's sitting in church is happy to be there, and some children will stop going as soon as the parental units let them.

4)what do you think of the Vatican?
Not a lot. The Roman Catholic clergy is organized hierarchically, and so team play is tied to career advancement. The laity, on the other hand, seems to go along with public things well enough (abortion, getting annulled before remarrying after a civil divorce, rasing their children at least nominally "in the faith," etc.) but on private things (artificial contraception, for example) just do what they damned well please.

5) what do you think Jesus would say about the state of christianity if he were around today?
Apart from wondering why it's called Christianity, I think he'd ask why there aren't more Jewish followers.

Hope that helps.

-

reply to post by eight bits


hey dude thanks for the reply,

I appreciate you taking the time but its unfortunately kinda pointless, as you dont believe it anyway its very easy for you to just be honest with all the facts and spit it out.

Would love to hear from your friends of faith who are as aware as yourself though.

Cheers again dude

I wouldn't call myself a Christian and I was in your position not so long ago. A very strong atheist.

There are errors in the modern bible. There are many important lessons inside though, and it is an amazing way to help people find the spirit and power within themselves that everybody has.

If you totally discredit it, you are missing out. It is important to be open minded to everything. When reading it, you will find things in it that that resonate inside you and you will feel as true.

One of my favourite quotes is: "The truth shall set you free"

No mater what you believe, Jesus has been possibly the Worlds greatest leader. By understanding his message and looking at the way he lived his life, it can help you become a better person. Spirituality is not something to be cynical about.

Be free, and live your life with love. Love all like you love yourself. Everything in the world is amazing and every visual you have is a beautiful photograph. When you give love, you create something out of nothing and it is the most incredible gift you can give someone. Nobody ever forgets an act of true love.

Peace.

Wow, this really isn't much different than racism in my opinion. To say that believers tend to have lower IQ's you say with such authority as if its fact, do you have any scientific studies that support this theory? Any links or sources for that claim? Now I don't really call myself a "Christian" but because I believe in the bible and Jesus and God, then some may call myself a Christian. Just because one goes to church does not mean that they are true believers. Many of these "churches " are what I think the bible talks about when it says, "false profits" and Wolves in sheep's clothing. The real church, when translated into the original language is to mean, the body of christ, and it says the body of Christ is the believers that come together in fellowship. Fellowship has nothing to do with church in the sense you think. It is to be in each others homes and break bread together, talk of good and pray, show humility to one another, help heal one another, and read and study. The bible says to not worship me in my name in temples made by mans hands, because I am NOT there, but instead when two or more believers come together (fellowship), I AM there. So here God is saying he isn't even the same God that is taught in many of these so called churches. Followers of holidays, well most holidays are pagan for one, and for two, God says to not celebrate one day more than another.

So how are you going to weed out the ATS members that are "intelligent Christians"? Are you the one that decides that or should we all take an online IQ test and post it as a link with our reply. Or you can just take my word for it that I am a believer in God, and that I have an IQ of 136, I'm college educated, I'm a junior biologist, high GPA...not trying to be pompous but just pointing out what you may consider to be intelligent, and that I believe I am an intelligent person. In fact, the believers I have fellowship with are smart too. They are teachers, counselors, college educated, even the children are very smart for their age. Do IQ tests really show our intelligence anyways? Is that really an accurate way to tell if someone is smart?

When you say lies in the bible, are you even talking about what you have read yourself, or are you talking about what others that supposedly teach the bible say it means? Not everyone can interpret the bible correctly so some that try to teach it sometimes get the wrong message across, contradict each other, it is people that get it wrong.....

So to answer your questions--

1)" have you heard of the council of Nicea? what do you think of it?"

I have heard about the council of Nicea, I learned that they were bishops and monarchs who were the ones to debate over the deity of Christ, and the meaning of the trinity, Father, Son, Holy Spirit. I remember from world civilization class that Constantine was involved in this council, and he tried to allow acceptance of a couple different views in order to unify the country with Christianity as long as it was still a monotheistic religious viewpoint. If I remember correctly, it was settled that Jesus was indeed ultimately part of God, or the personification of God, and that they are one, and that Constantine ended up choosing one side for political reasons. What I think is that in the beginning it was about men trying to honestly find a truth to the trinity, but then eventually men used these beliefs to try and rule over people and create temple churches to have control in political ideals. Are you implying the council Nicea somehow proves the bible wrong? I don't get why you are asking about it?

2) "How do you rationalise the contradictions in the bible?"

Maybe if you would give me specific, so called contradictions, then I could explain, I don't know what contradictions there are, or at least I haven't found them while reading. So could you be a little more specific please, actual verses of contradiction?


3) how old were you when you were indoctrinated or did you find God on your own? if so what brought him/her into your life?

First of all, the question is a biased one, you are already implying that believers are "indoctrinated" and to be indoctrinated usually means to be taught something without thinking critically about it, so I guess I was never "indoctrinated." By saying this you are already stating that beliefs of God are false, how do you know that? Since I was twelve I have researched all kinds of different religions, and finally at the age of 23, I found what I believe is to be the truth. It happened when I met someone with whom I had intense debates with about the Bible, and who God is, and who Jesus was. This person really knew what they were talking about and in fact studied the Bible in the original Hebrew for years. Finally I started to read, and I began to believe. I was baptized (fully submerged in water) in the name of Jesus, in water, with the Holy Spirit, and that was on March 28th, 2006. I remember that day, because that is the day I felt 1000 pounds lifted off my shoulders, I felt new. I wasn't baptized into the "Church of Zion" or the "Living Hope" or the "Catholic church" I was baptized in the Holy Spirit, the body of Christ is what we call us, we really have no name since we are just brothers and sisters. After that I started to study the bible myself even more, I felt better and I understood more. I did not find God on my own, I found God because God chose me, the Holy Spirit is my apostle (teacher), the Holy Spirit is what lead me to God.


4)"what do you think of the Vatican?"

--I think they are false teaching, for selfish and earthly purposes, I think the god that is taught, is the god of the earth, the god that God warned us about.

5) "what do you think Jesus would say about the state of christianity if he were around today?"

I guess he would say what he has said before, that there are many false profits and churches, they lurk around every street corner, there are wolves among us.

Peace,
Marriah

reply to post by IkNOwSTuff


I am a Christian, or at least that is how I was raised. I believe in God and Jesus, and I believe that Jesus is who he says he is. As I have become older (34 now), I have asked myself many of these same questions. I think that your assertion that the more educated people are, the less religious they are may be correct, but I disagree with the premise of your statement. Educated does not equal intelligent, nor does intelligence equal intellectualism. I think that an individual's academic pedigree is often overstated. Just because someone has a degree from here or there does not automatically make them smarter than someone that does not. The vast majority of higher educational institutions teach from a secular perspective, because secularism requires no faith. Doctrine driven primarily by faith, or that which cannot be proven, is incompatible with secularism because they are two completely different mindsets. The secular individual looks for a rational and scientific explanation for the world around him/her, while the faith driven individual can accept things which cannot be proven. I am not advocating for either point of view, I am only defining what I believe each view point to be.

Having said all of that, I personally am somewhere in the middle. As I stated I believe in God. I believe in Heaven and Hell, and I believe that the only way to get to heaven is to accept the salvation of Jesus Christ. After that is where I separate form traditional, or status quo Christianity. I believe the Bible was written by God inspired men as a means of trying to understand the world that God created for them. I believe the original intent of the Bible was good and honest. I also believe that over time, men seeking power and control over the masses perverted the message of the Bible, or they tailored the Bible to fit a particular agenda, which is where the council of Nicea comes into play. Who gave those men the authority to determine what should be in the Bible and what should not? I'm sure that if you could ask Constantine he would say that God did. I have a problem with an imperfect man, or men, determining what the content of a perfect book should be.

Your second question is a good one, and it is one that I am currently struggling with. I have posed this very question, among many others, to my Cousin. My Cousin has a Masters in Theology and is the senior pastor of a Baptist church. I am waiting for his response. For now, the only rational explanation is that the Bible was written by men, over a long period of time, and as we both know, men are not perfect.

Your third question is clearly a biased one. "How old were you when you were indoctrinated..?" I think that "introduced" would be much less combative if you are honestly searching for someone to answer your questions. Anyway, I was raised around the Baptist church my entire life. Christianity and the bible were foregone conclusions in my family. Then I had a "Social Anthropology" class in high school in which we studied world religions and I asked myself the question that changed my life and broke my Mother's heart... "How do you know that we are right and they are wrong?"

What do I think of the Vatican? The Vatican has nothing to do with Christianity. It is the headquarters of the Catholic religion. There are many similarities between Christianity and Catholicism, but there are also many fundamental differences. In my opinion, the Catholic Church is the largest cult in the world, well maybe the second largest behind Islam. It is also one of the largest money laundering operations in the world. The Pope is nothing more than the cult leader. In my opinion, no man is worthy of the exaultation the Pope receives. He is an ordinary man, and God loves him no more than anyone else.

What would Jesus say about the state of Christianity if he were around today? I believe that he is around today, and will return soon. I don't claim to know when that is, but I believe that it will happen. This is where I wonder about the ancient astronaut theory, and if Jesus is an alien. We'll save that discussion for a different day! To answer your question, I think that he would say that the vast majority of people have it wrong, but it is by no fault of their own due to the manipulation and censoring of the Bible by past generations. I think that Jesus would say that it's all about the individual relationship with God and not the mass, cult like following of main stream religions.

I guess that's my two cents.... good post and good questions. I always enjoy having an honest and respectful debate about this kind of stuff.

Q: Prove that God exists.

A: God only shows himself to those who have faith, To know him, you must first give yourself to him.

In short. The Religious standing is usually an oxymoron in that you first require a certain element of belief in order to achieve some kind of resolution, this is why I would advise you to look elsewhere for a logical, intelligent answer.

reply to post by Akragon

if you can't read one simple line such as "Once men die", as opposed to "men die once"... I think ye might need to head back to school.

I'll admit I don't have my reading glasses, but can you show me a SINGLE translation of Hebrews 9:27 that is worded as "once men die"? Again, either you're lying or incredibly ignorant to scripture.

They ALL state "men die once" or a slight variation of it.

I'll gladly 'go back to school' and drop my argument if you can show me a single translation that says "once men die" for Hebrews 9:27.

reply to post by Vicky32

You're showing your bias by using the term indoctrinated... and proving you're not genuine when you say your thread is not intended to attack anyone.

Precisely why I stopped reading the after the first sentence of the OP. It's a prejudicial rant written in question form, and nothing more.

But yeah, I'm the fool. *drinksmoreKool-Aid*

5) what do you think Jesus would say about the state of Christianity if he were around today?

I believe he would be as pissed off as many believers are me included
I understand most of ATS in asking a faith question dont do it to seek answers rather it is mainly to antagonize and ridicule with atheist zealot rabidness.
I would point out faith and religion are not one and the same.
I do understand the critics and agree in part, pertaining to the hypocritical element of 'the church' also...hence why I would rather not be labeled christian but follower/believer of Christ.

I say most if not all the theology, principals, practices, of all the modern churches are not the ways of the Lord.

The season of the old is nearing the end, and the time will come to live and see true Christianity.
Not about the pastor, buildings, cash flow, attendance, and all the other elements people target.

Man will give way to divine.
Revival is step one and while churches cry and pray to see it I believe 99% of the flock dont get it. Revival of the church is not gaining new members or fluffy meetings...The church is dead and it has to be brought alive again with God at the helm NOT mans ideas.
...egos positions, perceptions, theologies, formulas, etc will be crushed to dust it wont be happy times for all! some will regret and others turn away...the least will be the most and most the least...!
Only after the church is revived then comes the harvest....

Honestly I prefer no one "unsaved" visit or attend a church till then...For many reasons to long to list, Unless they understand even a snippet of the real meaning of Christ.
"If anyone corrupts one of these little children, so that he can no longer be a child, it would be better for him to be drowned with a millstone around his neck." Jesus
Let no one deceive you!!!!

You dont need to attend a church and repeat some sinners pray to begin life in faith with Jesus.

For where there are two or three assembled in my name, there am I in the midst of them."
“I tell you the truth, anyone who will not receive the kingdom of God like a little child will never enter it”

God is satisfied with his works
Gen 1:31
God is dissatisfied with his works.
Gen 6:6

.

Gen 1:31 refers to completion of creation .... The time when man walked with beast in harmony ... Perfect

Gen 6:6 refers to the time of the "fall of man" from grace, I understand god wished to destroiy us thus Lord Jesus Christ came to redeem ...have a good day and that is just my little spin not neccasarily fact


As for the intelectuals here lol university innteligence or life intelligence the latter is why I believe

God is satisfied with his works
Gen 1:31
God is dissatisfied with his works.
Gen 6:6

.

Gen 1:31 refers to completion of creation .... The time when man walked with beast in harmony ... Perfect

Gen 6:6 refers to the time of the "fall of man" from grace, I understand god wished to destroiy us thus Lord Jesus Christ came to redeem ...have a good day and that is just my little spin not neccasarily fact


As for the intelectuals here lol university innteligence or life intelligence the latter is why I believe

reply to post by OptimusSubprime

I also believe that over time, men seeking power and control over the masses perverted the message of the Bible, or they tailored the Bible to fit a particular agenda, which is where the council of Nicea comes into play. Who gave those men the authority to determine what should be in the Bible and what should not?

Don't fall for this internet myth. The cannon of scripture was never discussed at the Nicean Council. The council was convened to address the "Arian Controversy" dealing with the deity of Jesus Christ. Don't help to perpetuate this lie, expose it.

Nicea: The "Real" Story VS The Facts

Nice trolling and too good to pass up!

council of Nicea was established to formulate and acceptable version of the Apostle's Creed and as such a statement of faith to be used as "dogma" kinda like a
'lets get our story straight"

Matters of faith are just that ..:what are you willing to believe" and "to what extent" do you believe them ..enough to change your view life and how you live it?


The Holy Roman Catholic Church (what remains today), once it split from the Greek Orthodox church was brought about by the Roman General and soon Roman Emperor Constatine. He was not "converted" but converted his army and his "realm" to Christianity ..prior to there being a Catholic / Greek Orthodox version. The Holy Roman Catholic Church is pretty much a modern version of the Egyptian faith practiced at the time of Constantine and remains so today. Look it up for yourself ,,I did my own research ...eternity is a long time to spend based on poor research.

I was a teenager when I accepted "conversion" I cant really say to the "Christianity" that is preached and practiced today. Much like in Christ's days, his relegion was practiced as an "expediant" means of the powerful to control the weak (as Judea was occupied by the Romans and not allowed "self rule"). Today, I've learned to accept responsibilty for what I believe and practice..no one is going to hell or heaven with me..all of us are own journey to enightnment.

I don think Jesus would appreciate modern Christianity today any more than he did his native Judism as it was practiced during his day.

There is a lot to the personality of "G-D" understand why people are confounded with concepts associated with learing about him and his ways. In general I have found that there are "pearls of wisdom" wrapped ain paradoxi..that can only be solved by persuing and solving appearant contridictions. One thing is certain, it is eaisier to paly it off as a contradiction that attempt to solve a riddle.

To each his own ..faith is an individual issue,, wisdom is gained over time by living and practicing concepts not
by passing them off as lies or mistakes because you failed to research and attempt to apply christian concepts.

reply to post by EspyB


Hey there,

I never said I was an Atheist, Im not even agnostic!!!

I dont believe in god/universal conciousness I KNOW it/he/she exists, Before anyone asks no I dont have scientific proof of this but I KNOW it as an instinct, or if you want you can call it faith

I am very open minded hence the reason of the thread, Im not trying to discredit peole Im honestly looking for like minded people who do have faith in an organised religion despite what they and I see as glaring inconsistancies and downright falsehoods.

I totally agree that Jesus was an inspirational leader I just hae trouble believeing all the myth and hype that surrounds him. For instance I find it somewhat ridiculous that people think he was god incarnate but thats just me.

The final paragraph of your post...... so true

Peace to you as well mate

1) have you heard of the council of Nicea? what do you think of it?

its in Angels & Demons and The Matrix? - nope never heard of it, and regardless of who or what god is or was, the facts that come out of it wouldn't change my personal views.

2) How do you rationalise the contradictions in the bible?

The bible was written by men, usually trying to gain power over other men. The original message has been lost in transaltion, reproduction and opinion.

3) how old were you when you were indoctrinated or did you find God on your own? if so what brought him/her into your life?

very young.

4)what do you think of the Vatican?

Peado rest home?

5) what do you think Jesus would say about the state of christianity if he were around today?

He'd forgive them.

OK that should get us started



all the religions have a similar theme..... be nice to people, love one another and treat people the way you want to be treated. humans have distorted the rest over the last few thousand years.

even if jesus turned out to be a guy who told a really good story when he was drunk, the morales of the fables alaways seem to carry fairly logical truth...

I stopped shooting the messenger and found my own god

reply to post by IkNOwSTuff


religious discussions bring much insanity - I can't even read through this entire thread

I think this is a worth read though to start you on "why" the bible contradicts itself

www.xeeatwelve.com...

its just someones opinion I assume, I haven't looked very deeply into it yet, but it made a lot of sense to me

I found God about 10 days ago after being agnostic for 25 years, or I should say he found me - if I tell you how you'd think I'm insane - my son said if I look for signs I'll find them - but I wasn't looking

Originally posted by johngrissom

Originally posted by BlackStar99

Originally posted by paul777
reply to post by BlackStar99

 

Yes, there are apparent contradictions. You had quite a list to start off with. I am willing to answer them one at a time. Which one is on the top of your list and we can work on them one-by-one starting from the most confusing.

How about the biggest one? That is; God is supposedly a loving God, but would send the Christian pedophile to heaven and for the Buddhist man who devoted his entire life to spreading love and peace? Straight to hell to be tortured for all of eternity...

Confusing for the people who dont understand. You cannot be a Christian and do those such things. All that person is doing is claiming that they are Christian most likely because they go to church on Sunday. Which is what majority of the Christian church does. Which is also why I turned away from the church. Doesn't mean as much as it did 1000 years ago. ME, myself, as a believer cannot associate myself with hypocrites such as the Christian pedophile.
Its just a title to most now a days. I will not condemn that person and say they are going to hell but it isn't to hard to figure out whats going to happen.

edit on 15-5-2011 by johngrissom because: (no reason given)

Common sense would tell you that a Christian and pedophile cnt co exist as 1! How can u touch kids and consider your self a christian. Are we speaking of an convicted offender who went to to find christ (really to find christ not just the title: Christian). The Bible is interpritated everyday and 3xs on sundays: when u go to church they read script and says "what that BASICALLY means" and bring up a story (usually irrelevant) about the script! I have wonders but Ill wait for GOD to answer...dnt be mistaken there is a God