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The Roman Empire Collapsed Under the Weight of Illegal Immigration and Welfare...

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posted on Apr, 16 2011 @ 08:16 AM
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Originally posted by Hopeforeveryone
reply to post by mbkennel
 


The Eastern Empire due to the Fourth Crusade in 1204.


Rome was sacked by rebellious Visigoths in 410 and by the Vandals in 455. The city of Rome was all but evacuated by the 7th century. The Eastern Empire held on a bit longer. But by the thirteenth century, the Eastern Roman Empire no longer existed. The Vatican was more in control.




posted on Apr, 16 2011 @ 08:20 AM
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Whatever century, the Eastern and Western Roman Empires became overburdened by illegal immigration (barbairans of all sorts) and welfare (attempting to bribe the barbarians), until such time as the entirety of the Roman Empire ceased to exist: East and West.

Which is what is happening to America, today. Our government and economy is being overtaxed by illegal immigratioin and welfare to the point of eventually breaking.

At which time Americans will be dealing the the barbarians at the gate, just as Rome suffered.



posted on Apr, 16 2011 @ 08:55 AM
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I've never read such a load of rubbish in all my life. Attila wasn't an illegal immigrant, he was an emperor controlling and empire larger than Rome's, He had already beaten the Visgoth empire, he arranged a marriage between himself and Honoria who was Emperor Valentinian's sister, and by doing so proclaimed half of the Roman. empire for himself. His only interest was to make a large an empire as he could. Equating him to an illegal immigrant is like saying if Russia invaded Putin would be an illegal immigrant

And it wasn't welfare the Romans paid, it was tribute, which was paid so the Romans could trade within the Hun empire, a trade agreement, when Atilla attacked, he made a peace and the tribute was made higher, because Rome had breached the first treaty, it was done in punishment.

You have an agenda against Immigration and welfare and they are two distinct different problems. The welfare burden is created by insufficient work for people. It is not created because of immigration. Immigration did not cause the banks to lie and swindle everyone, including the American people. You cannot call people work shy and lazy if there are no physical jobs to do. We had a similar situation with the first great depression, there was no welfare then, but yet there was millions without jobs, why? because there was NO jobs for them, people were desperate then just as they are now.

And tell me, how do these so called illegal immigrants get welfare? just sneak across the border, go to the welfare office and say they want money? An illegal immigrant when discovered by the authorities will be deported, so exactly how they are claiming welfare?

Nations rise, nations fall, empires rise and empires fall, it is not welfare or immigration that cause this, it is greed, corruption and wars, none of which are the responsibility of welfare or immigration



posted on Apr, 16 2011 @ 08:59 AM
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Originally posted by PrinceDreamer

And tell me, how do these so called illegal immigrants get welfare? just sneak across the border, go to the welfare office and say they want money?


Yep, that's pretty much how the liberal welfare socialist system works. If someone makes it across the border, getting the welfare money is the easy part.



posted on Apr, 16 2011 @ 09:03 AM
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Originally posted by fredvcall

Originally posted by PrinceDreamer

And tell me, how do these so called illegal immigrants get welfare? just sneak across the border, go to the welfare office and say they want money?


Yep, that's pretty much how the liberal welfare socialist system works. If someone makes it across the border, getting the welfare money is the easy part.
Would you mind showing us exactly how that happens?

I think that without the illegal immigrants we'd be in a hole deeper than the grand canyon. We couldn't manage without them. Everything would be more expensive. I am grateful for it. They're harder workers than the americans. If you don't believe me then go to the places where they work. Something about not taking everything for granted makes them better workers.

On one side we have the american that just graduated from college and complains there're no jobs. On the other we have an illegal that's working and doesn't complain. They don't care where they work. They don't care that they're not rich. They just work. And that's what's so admirable.

We were all immigrants at one time. I'm lucky to have my grandfathers notes about his first years in america. He moved around getting jobs in different places just like illegals do.

They're willing to work their way up the ladder unlike rich spoiled graduates that want a job out the door. I admire americans who would take a job no matter what it's no matter what the hours are or where it's. They have the fighting spirit that made our country strong. That's what we need right now. We have too much complaining. Too much indecision. We need action.

Only people that can be blamed are ourselves, not illegals, not communists, not chinese, etc.
edit on 16-4-2011 by jonnywhite because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 16 2011 @ 09:17 AM
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reply to post by jonnywhite
 


We Americans can't survive without illegal immigrants, you say?

Wow. That's about one of the scariest comments I've read in these forums.

How low has the welfare liberal socialist system taken America?

PS....Do I really, really, really have to emphasize the word ILLEGAL???
edit on 16-4-2011 by fredvcall because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 16 2011 @ 09:22 AM
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Originally posted by fredvcall
Whatever century, the Eastern and Western Roman Empires became overburdened by illegal immigration (barbairans of all sorts) and welfare (attempting to bribe the barbarians), until such time as the entirety of the Roman Empire ceased to exist: East and West.


What is different about the Roman Empire was that all those areas conquered were considered provinces of the empire and their populations citzens of Rome. There was no such thing as an illegal immigrant.

I'll add to that a little known fact; That those who travelled to Rome, as citizens from the provinces, were accorded every right, including the right to worship the Gods of their home territories. Rome was awash with temples, rituals and celebrations to the many polytheistic Gods most days of the year. Everyone allowed everything to go on and it was a happy, though frankly messy, time.

Then along came the notion of a Solitary God who would brook no other Gods before Him. Add to that the singular insanity of martyrdom for their monotheistic faith and you have the mixture for what truly destroyed the Roman Empire. Rome was torn assunder from within, first in the warfare between polytheism and monotheism and then the struggle between the various monotheistic factions such as the one created by Arius and what became known as the Arian Heresy.

For centuries, the Greek Orthodox were attacked by the Latin Church in Rome. Warfare, death and destruction followed every part of Christanity and the Vatican played a huge role ever since Constantine.

People today still die because of that minor distinction which seperates Jews, Christians and Muslims.



posted on Apr, 16 2011 @ 09:24 AM
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Originally posted by fredvcall
I've been watching the History Channel biographies on Attila the Hun.

The Huns and other barbarians were the illegal immigrants roaming through the Eastern and Western halves of the Roman Empire.

Rome thought they could bribe Attila to take it easy on their territories. They offered Atilla a whole lot of welfare. The more welfare Rome offered Attila, the more Attila laughed at Rome as having grown weak.

Attila did his fair share to take apart the Roman Empire.

So, looks like history repeating itself. Will we today learn a lesson from Attila?


History Channel Decisive Battles Attila The Hun Part 1 of 2 ...History Channel Decisive Battles Attila The Hun Part 1 of 2. Category: Video – Tags: Attila, battles, Channel, Decisive, History, Part – admin – 2:35 pm ...
www.official-down.info/history-channel-decisive-battles-attila-the-hun-part-1 -of-2/
edit on 15-4-2011 by fredvcall because: (no reason given)


welfare to attila the hun??....sure...it was the arrogance and brutality of the wealthy roman rulers toward the people they ruled over. there was no such thing as "welfare" back then, at least in the sense you are thinking it is.
did you get this from one of the brilliant (sic) FOX NEWS talking heads? and i have never heard of slaves brought into the country described as "illegal immigration"...there is so much written on the reasons the roman empire failed and from well-documented writings from that time period. illegal-immigration and welfare is a right-wingers disturbed opinion, that is easily dismissed from actual historical documents from that time and place.
edit on 16-4-2011 by jimmyx because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 16 2011 @ 09:33 AM
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reply to post by jimmyx
 


Welfare is welfare whether it is spoken in Latin, English, Soviet Russia or whatever tongue.



posted on Apr, 16 2011 @ 09:34 AM
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reply to post by masqua
 


Same goes for illegal immigration...whatever language you are speaking it in, it is ILLEGAL.



posted on Apr, 16 2011 @ 09:38 AM
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reply to post by fredvcall
 


While the "welfare" angle is a part of it all, its not the complete problem.

General corruption, weak leadership, and overspending, exterior military forces growing, over extended military, non-indigenous personell in military forces.

These all contributed.

damn, 95% of that sounds amazingly familiar.



posted on Apr, 16 2011 @ 09:41 AM
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reply to post by fredvcall
 


Yeah... but your mistake is applying it to ancient Rome. It doesn't fit, simply because it was NOT illegal then.



posted on Apr, 16 2011 @ 09:43 AM
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Immigration and welfare played a major role in the downfall of Rome but theres more to it then that.



posted on Apr, 16 2011 @ 09:48 AM
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Originally posted by fredvcall
reply to post by jimmyx
 


Welfare is welfare whether it is spoken in Latin, English, Soviet Russia or whatever tongue.



if you are a slave, you do not recieve welfare...why?....BECAUSE THEY HAD NO CHOICE!..."you can work and eat, and if you don't you will be put to death, this is not a decision to go on welfare.



posted on Apr, 16 2011 @ 09:52 AM
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Originally posted by fredvcall

Originally posted by Hopeforeveryone
This thread and the OP seems to be using history ( from a tv show) to justify their own political view of imigration and welfare. )


And you are using the internet in an attempt to justify illegal immigration and welfare. What's the difference between television and the internet, anymore?

My main point is you can't really compare ancient Roman problems to the current situation in America. Nowhere in my post have i attempted to justify illegal imigration or welfare. It's just i think your original premise or assumption that the problems are similar is just simply incorrect. But hey it's just an opinion and i wouldn't worry about it


Also if we want to look at history I'm sure the native Americans have more of a dispute with illegal immigration than the current inhabitants of the United States - sorry couldn't help adding that one



posted on Apr, 16 2011 @ 09:59 AM
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reply to post by Hopeforeveryone
 


Native Americans CAN'T have an issue with illegal immigration.

By their own admission they did not have a concept of land ownership, therefor there was no 'country' to illegaly immigrate to.

The Native Americans were conquered more so than washed away by 'illegal' immigration.



posted on Apr, 16 2011 @ 10:03 AM
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i think this OP is either delusional, or is doing research on how big of a lie can be told, and find people to believe it....maybe a college paper on socialology or political science...either way i'm out, i'm finding more and more people on ATS, that think like this, and frankly it feels like one giant experiment.

hey...OP...why don't you research how the right-wing in america is preaching the same ideas as the Nazis did back in the 1930's?....you want to analyse correlations in society right?....well...there you go.



posted on Apr, 16 2011 @ 10:06 AM
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Why does it sem everywhere I look, the blame for everything is now the fault of welfare recipients and immigrants? The media have done a hatchet job on people to take the blame away from the Bankers and governments that got us into this mess. Talk about targeting the vulnerable.
edit on 16-4-2011 by woodwardjnr because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 16 2011 @ 10:10 AM
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Originally posted by PrinceDreamer
I've never read such a load of rubbish in all my life. Attila wasn't an illegal immigrant, he was an emperor controlling and empire larger than Rome's, He had already beaten the Visgoth empire, he arranged a marriage between himself and Honoria who was Emperor Valentinian's sister, and by doing so proclaimed half of the Roman. empire for himself. His only interest was to make a large an empire as he could. Equating him to an illegal immigrant is like saying if Russia invaded Putin would be an illegal immigrant

And it wasn't welfare the Romans paid, it was tribute, which was paid so the Romans could trade within the Hun empire, a trade agreement, when Atilla attacked, he made a peace and the tribute was made higher, because Rome had breached the first treaty, it was done in punishment.

You have an agenda against Immigration and welfare and they are two distinct different problems. The welfare burden is created by insufficient work for people. It is not created because of immigration. Immigration did not cause the banks to lie and swindle everyone, including the American people. You cannot call people work shy and lazy if there are no physical jobs to do. We had a similar situation with the first great depression, there was no welfare then, but yet there was millions without jobs, why? because there was NO jobs for them, people were desperate then just as they are now.

And tell me, how do these so called illegal immigrants get welfare? just sneak across the border, go to the welfare office and say they want money? An illegal immigrant when discovered by the authorities will be deported, so exactly how they are claiming welfare?

Nations rise, nations fall, empires rise and empires fall, it is not welfare or immigration that cause this, it is greed, corruption and wars, none of which are the responsibility of welfare or immigration



The biggest reason for the fall of the American Empire, is not illegal immigration or welfare, but because of its shift toward a more plutocratic system that only values the wealthy 1%, and where the wealthy are represented more through political donations etc, than the majority of American's.

The 1% control the majority of industries and corporations that people depend on to live, such as food, Monsanto, Housing (Banks and Wall Street Games) and Medical, Pharmaceutical and Insurance Industries. They also outsourced most of the peoples ability to feed themselves and to attain the above services those 1% also control.


Citigroup put out a document in 2005 to their perspective clients, stating they and the 1% are the new plutocracy, and that immigration, outsourcing, and taking advantage of other countries resources and labor is the forward looking way to maintain their control and riches.


docs.google.com...

Fortunately, people have been waking up and fighting back in many of the empires satellite countries around the world.


Well, here goes. Little of this note should tally with conventional thinking. Indeed, traditional thinking is likely to have issues with most of it. We will posit that:1) the world is dividing into two blocs - the plutonomies, where economic growth is powered by and largely consumed by the wealthy few, and the rest. Plutonomies have occurred before in sixteenth century Spain, in seventeenth century Holland, the Gilded Age and the Roaring Twenties in the U.S.




Often these wealth waves involve great complexity, exploited best by the rich and educated of the time.
2) We project that the plutonomies (the U.S., UK, and Canada) will likely see even more income inequality, disproportionately feeding off a further rise in the profit share in their economies, capitalist-friendly governments, more technology-driven productivity, and globalization.




4) In a plutonomy there is no such animal as“the U.S. consumer” or“the UK consumer”, or indeed the“Russian consumer”.There are rich consumers, few in number, but disproportionate in the gigantic slice of income and consumption they take.
There are the rest, the“non-rich”, the multitudinous many, but only accounting for surprisingly small bites of the national pie.




5) Since we think the plutonomy is here, is going to get stronger, its membership swelling from globalized enclaves in the emerging world, we think a“plutonomy basket” of stocks should continue do well. These toys for the wealthy have pricing power, and staying power. They are Giffen goods, more desirable and demanded the more expensive they are.




Let’s dive into some of the details. As Figure 1 shows the top 1% of households in the U.S., (about 1 million households) accounted for about 20% of overall U.S. income in 2000, slightly smaller than the share of income of the bottom 60% of households put together.That’s about 1 million households compared with 60 million households, both with similar slices of the income pie!



What are the common drivers of Plutonomy?
Disruptive technology-driven productivity gains, creative financial innovation, capitalist-friendly cooperative governments, an international dimension of immigrants and overseas conquests invigorating wealth creation, the rule of law, and patenting inventions. Often these wealth waves involve great complexity, exploited best by the rich and educated of the time.



The immigrants here, as well as abroad are tools to make them richer with more control, but their seriously deluded to think that their policies will be tolerated where the majority do not have a say.



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